Let's have that conversation about kids

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Raids, how old are you both if you don't mind me asking? I think if you truly love each other divorce is an extreme option, there's no harm in waiting a few years. Both of your opinions could change etc etc

[Mlle. Zabzie]

He says that's fine and he would not have any problem staying together childless under those circumstances. He does not want to adopt.

Is it fair to want him to get a fertility test before we get any further down this road? I mean, aren't they fairly easy and straightforward?

No. It's not fair. Going through the process myself, I learned that male factor infertility is MUCH less common than female factor. And the tests for you will involve about a gallon of blood, a couple of sonograms, and if you are lucky, a hystersalpingogram, an experience that I never want to repeat.

Datepalm - I think there are plenty of women (like 100% of my acquaintance) that are ambivalent about having kids. One of my friends put it this way - I was more than 50% but less than 75% sure, but my husband was 100% sure, and that ended up being good enough for me. I think that's common, at least in my set.

[Kalbear]

That's my marriage. And all in all, I don't miss cats that much.

And that might be the case with the person with kids. But likely it's not, and likely (like Raids) you'd end up having to take Kiditin and still wake up at 2AM sneezing due to those kids.

[Guest Raids]

Raids, how old are you both if you don't mind me asking? I think if you truly love each other divorce is an extreme option, there's no harm in waiting a few years. Both of your opinions could change etc etc

32. It's pretty much time to get this straightened out. When we got married this is when we thought we'd start thinking about it. He kind of wants to start trying to have kids now, and two years from now at the latest.

No. It's not fair. Going through the process myself, I learned that male factor infertility is MUCH less common than female factor. And the tests for you will involve about a gallon of blood, a couple of sonograms, and if you are lucky, a hystersalpingogram, an experience that I never want to repeat.

Tell me more about this. Is the test for him really that bad?

[Mlle. Zabzie]

All conversations have been remarkably adult and civil and everything, so I'm not sure that a counselor would really necessarily help, but I guess you kind of have to do everything you can, right?

Actually, a counsellor helped us be LESS adult and civil on a lot of issues, which ended up being really good for us :)

[Harlot]

My wife and I put off even starting to try until after we were in our 30's. I wanted kids a lot more than she did. I think she had the usual fears but also there was this whole "I'm devoted to my career and that wouldn't be fair to the child" that I never really got. Unfortunately, once we started trying it took us nearly 3 years to have our son. And he's the best part of my life, period. If I had to do it over I wish we had started sooner and we'd had at least one more.

It's a hard choice and it does involve a lot of sacrifice of your own desires. This was harder for me than I expected but in the moment you realize that it's a biological imperitive. And I don't think I really matured as a person until I became a father and I had to think beyond my own (admittedly) short-sighted selfishness. Something my wife had learned to tolerate but that a child completely overwhelms.

Good luck and just do what is right for you.

[Kalbear]

It would be awesome if you read them "Twas the Night Before the Second Apocalypse" this Holiday season.

The mobile was a combination of Oregon Duck symbols and glistening dog phalluses.

(true story: my 2 year old can say GO DUCKS! and claps when others say it)

In terms of expense: yes, kids are expensive in the sense that whatever income you have right now and whatever lifestyle you have right now will be reduced somewhat. But they're not insanely expensive. Saving up for college is nice, but ultimately not required. Giving them a bigger house and a car and all that - they'll survive without it. The biggest expense for adults regarding parenting isn't money, it's time. You spend so very much time with the kids, and early on when you're not spending time with them directly you're either spending time sleeping (ah, lovely sleep) or spending time doing things for the kids. Your time is largely not your own.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

32. It's pretty much time to get this straightened out. When we got married this is when we thought we'd start thinking about it. He kind of wants to start trying to have kids now, and two years from now at the latest.

Tell me more about this. Is the test for him really that bad?

No - his is easy. He will go watch bad porn somewhere and they will look at his swimmers for motility, etc. You could also do genetic screening, so they'll take some blood to see if there's anything particularly nasty that pops up (other than the Ashkenazi tests - I don't know if those apply to you all - I think it's mainly cystic fibrosis they'd be looking for, but I honestly can't remember the initial tests because we ended up doing so many more on the genetic side).

[Eponine]

Hey a thread about having kids and one about atheism all in the same week! It's like the universe wants me to post more!

On the other hand, my husband absolutely wants to have kids. Naturally we talked about this before we were married, and I thought I'd come around the idea of wanting one child. But, if I'm being honest, the idea still fills me with total and utter dread.

I've been through this and you know that you have my complete sympathies. (You also know everything I'm going to say, but do I look like someone who doesn't like to repeat myself?) Obviously my situation was different since my ex-husband and I had other problems besides kids, and I don't know what would have happened if the marriage was otherwise wonderful.

I had never had a desire to have kids in my entire life. Before getting married, we agreed that we definitely wouldn't have any children for a few years and then we would reconsider. Like you, I thought that I'd come around to the idea of having one child. But the more it became a possible reality, the more I resisted it. I had a pregnancy scare once, and my first unbidden thought was - get it out of me NOW.

It wasn't ultimately about avoiding responsibility (although I could see that most of the domestic tasks would end up falling on me and I resented that strongly), or about being selfish or afraid that having a baby would make my life not fun, or any other common bingo. It's simply absolute lack of desire. And I realized that what had truly been immature and selfish for me was to think that I could have a child and then relegate it to a corner of my life, to have a child that I wasn't 100% committed to.

As far as "you'll love it when it's yours" and all the stuff about bonding during pregnancy... one of the hardest things for me to accept was that my bio mother was pregnant with me for nine months, went through labor, must have looked at me, said it's not what I wanted, and left without me. (I don't know much about pregnancy, maybe you can't be certain about gender until it's too late to abort?) She was a winner at evolution - I was the 7th of at least 8. But I know that feeling the way I do about having children, I could never leave it to chance that I'd love it when it got here. I would rather fail at evolution than be my bio mother.

[Kalbear]

(I don't know much about pregnancy, maybe you can't be certain about gender until it's too late to abort?)

You can find out about gender very early; ultrasound (if the baby's cooperating) around 16-17 weeks, and amnio around then too. Not too late for an abortion, though it's much more complicated at that point.

And this in turn makes me think that it would be morally wrong to have kids because I would be a bad father because I couldn't handle the volatility

Actually, kid life is largely nonvolatile. Routine is what makes kids happy, and they want and desire it more than adults do. They tend to go to sleep at the same time, they wake up at the same time, they nap at the same time (ish). They tend to want to eat around the same time. Their mood is pretty similar from time to time in a day and you can easily get into a routine of going places at certain parts of the day. In fact, making too many changes is one of the easiest ways to really harm your kid. Like it or not, things go routine with kids. Not only do you start doing things at a specific time, you do them in a specific way. Have a song you sing to them when they go to sleep? You'll be singing that one song for a long, long time. Favorite toys stay favorites for a while. They'll want to read the same book over and over for, oh, a billion years. The trick is to make sure that they get used to your routine too. If you go to the gym at a specific time, make sure to do it regularly at that time. Grocery shopping, going to the park, etc - all of that cna easily be added. You have to stick to it.

If anything, that's the thing adults have a hard time with - sticking with the established routine. Kids do it naturally.

[Kouran]

While I am certainly not a knowledgable man with regards to kids, I have none and most likely never will. I would caution you to concider what your life would be like without kids.

Every time I am with my family and see the joys and anguish they go through with their kids I cant help but be jealous of them. To choose to not have that joy and heartache is one of the hardest choices anyone should ever have to make.

I wish you the best in making your choice what ever it should be and hope you never have to live to regret it as I do.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Raidne,

This is completely anicdotal so take it for what it is worth. My wife didn't want to have kids but before we married she told me she'd consider having children. Very early in our marriage (we'd been married only 9 months) we discovered she was pregant. She was terrified. She hated being pregnant. It put a tremendous strain on our marriage. She fell in love with our Daughter when she was born.

She then decided she wanted no other children. I volunteered to get fixed. She didn't want me to do that. Three years after our daughter was born our Son was born. Same process. She hated being pregnant the entire time didn't bond with the child in utero. She fell in love with our son after he was born.

As I said this is totally anicdotal and does not in any way shape or form mean it will be your experience. I'm not kidding when I say kids are hard and a pain in the ass. That said they are the best pain in the ass you will ever have the pleasure of being willing to lay your life down for. YMMV.

[Eponine]

While I am certainly not a knowledgable man with regards to kids, I have none and most likely never will. I would caution you to concider what your life would be like without kids.

Every time I am with my family and see the joys and anguish they go through with their kids I cant help but be jealous of them. To choose to not have that joy and heartache is one of the hardest choices anyone should ever have to make.

Haha, well that makes me feel better about my own decision actually :) Every time I'm around people with small kids, even really good parents with really well behaved or creative or cute kids, I come away thinking - OMG I'm so glad that's not my life!

[Xray the Enforcer]

Raids, you know this already but I'm going to say it again. You can only make this decision yourself. Take your husband, your mom, and all others persons out of the equation -- you have to decide what is best for you. Only then can you go forward and take the risks (divorce, potential infertility and all the stresses that entails, potential erosion of your life, career or marriage due to being a parent) that will come with the decision, whichever way you decide. Good luck.

[Liadin]

Why would it suck?

Would it suck to find someone you're really in love with and find out that they're devoutly jewish and won't marry a non-jew? Or to marry someone who loved mountains and wanted to live in the mountains, and you hate them? Or someone who desperately likes having cats and they marry someone who is deathly allergic to them?

All of those would suck. The difference being, location is something that can be compromised on, and we know up-front how we feel about religion and cats. (I don't consider people to be viable dating options if they're allergic to cats. :P ) Kids though.... that's rough. I don't really have any advice. I definitely don't want kids myself, and don't know about these comments about how you "might resent yourself for preventing your husband from having kids." It seems highly doubtful that any such feeling, if in fact you felt it, would be so severe that it would be worth going through all the trials and tribulations of pregnancy, childbirth and parenting, when you don't really want it. It seems more likely that your husband would resent himself for pressuring you into being a mother. But that's easy for me to say. Good luck, Raids.

[mouse]

Raids,

Much of this is what I already told you when we had lunch a few weeks ago in DC, so maybe not all that helpful.

For most of my 20s and very early 30s, I didn't think I wanted kids. I saw too many relationships where the woman did ALL the parenting, and the man did none of it. I read studies that said that even in "egalitarian" relationships where the woman was a self-proclaimed feminist (and the man was too), mom wound up doing 60, 70, even 80% of the parenting. I wanted no part of it.

I met my husband. When we first met, he wanted 4 kids; I wanted 0. He changed my perspective a ton, because I could tell that HE would be a wonderful father, and I thought we wouldn't fall into that trap. I wanted to raise a child with him. We went into marriage with the perspective of "Let's see how one goes, but no guarantees on more than one."

We have a 16-month old, and I have no regrets. BUT, as I told you over lunch, I don't think our situation is common. He does more of the childcare than I do - but part of that is because he's home from work at 5:00, while I'm a lawyer who oftens works late & on weekends. Other parts of it are just in his nature. He loves taking care of our daughter. He took a 4-week paternity leave, and it was wonderful. The only time our child-care was primarily up to me was the last 8 weeks of my maternity leave (when his leave was up and he was back at work).

We still have outside interests - but limited time to pursue them. I still go out with friends, as does he - but we have to take turns. We still travel - but it's just a pain in the ass. We go out to nice restaurants - but at 5:30 instead of 8:30. It has not been a huge lifestyle change. But not everyone wants to handle all those "buts."

One thing I'd add now is: DON'T have kids just to please your husband, or because you think that once the kid arrives, it will all work out. Are there parents that have kids and don't truly enjoy parenting/like their kids, you asked earlier? Yes, and a lot of them are ones who were really ambivalent about having kids in the first place. If you're not sure, don't do it. It's not fair to your husband, it's not fair to your self, and it's not fair to that child that you brought into the world.

(That being said, "sure" is a hard-to-define concept. Even the couple that was 100% certain they wanted a kid will FREAK THE F OUT once the woman is pregnant.)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Raidne,

Whatever you decide to do good luck sending warm thoughts your way.

:)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mouse,

Well said. Even knowing you want kids knowing a child is on the way is a disconcerting and truely life changing experience.

[Guest Raids]

I feel like something is missing from this thread...yeah the part where someone shows up and is a total asshole. Amazing! It's like, what, page 5 and everyone is being so freaking nice. :stunned:

My left brain is spinning over the idea that someone who wants kids would stay with their partner even if they were infertile, but might also see kids as a dealbreaker. See what I mean? It's a totally illogical, biologically fraught discussion.

Well, if he was infertile is actually is pretty logical. But yeah, the part about me is weird for me too. I mean, how could he be okay with not having kids just because it's not my fault, but not be okay with it just because I really don't want to? Is there really any logical difference?

I guess it would probably be because I'm sort of going back on what I said going in to the marriage if it's a decision, but I'm not if it's a fertility issue.

Raids, you know this already but I'm going to say it again. You can only make this decision yourself. Take your husband, your mom, and all others persons out of the equation -- you have to decide what is best for you. Only then can you go forward and take the risks (divorce, potential infertility and all the stresses that entails, potential erosion of your life, career or marriage due to being a parent) that will come with the decision, whichever way you decide. Good luck.

Actually, I have not thought about it this way in some time, really. I've been thinking about it as a wholly mutual thing for awhile.

Mouse, thanks again for your thoughts, and for talking to me about it the other day. :)

[Ghosts Companion]

I swore I would never have kids, then had my first when I was 28. She was not planned at all. Do I regret it? No. Do I wish I would have waited? Maybe

Just look at the big picture, not just the negative things that being parent can bring. There is good and bad in every choice you make even small ones. I feel having a child made me a better person, but if you would have told me that years ago when I was single I would have laughed in your face. haha

I agree that it is your choice, but if you got married with any agreement of children in the future then it is also your husbands choice. Things need to be laid on the table all thoughts not just civil ones. Having a debate or argument is not bad for a relationship if you can come to a good conclusion that makes everyone happy. I have both sides of the coin, my first relationship having kids was not good for us. But my current husband, having a child with him, has made it better with us.