[ADwD Spoilers] Meera and Jojen cliffhanger?

[iamthedave]

But how can they leave? They are surrounded by wights, and it's freezing out there. I think they're stuck!

Yeah, if there's one thing obvious from the chapters, it's that Coldhands doesn't give a shit about Meera and Jojen. Bran's the only one there that matters.

[LordManderBlee]

My theory was that they were going to either be miraculously rescued (eagles or something), or they're going to die. Doesn't really matter to me either way.

[Gomi]

But how can they leave? They are surrounded by wights, and it's freezing out there. I think they're stuck!

in a previous thread we theorized that the caves and underground river provide two possible escape routes. Personally, I like the river because it would presumably flow into the ocean, putting Bran and company in the vicinity of either Hardhome or Skaagos. I also think Jojen is still alive, though not for long. I believe his death will come as he sacrifices himself to ensure the escape of the others. I don't think home in the context of "he wants to go home" refers to his literal home but his death. He is resigned to his fate and "will not fight it", possibly because he knows that his death is Bran's/Meera's/Hodor's salvation.

[Wouter]

Just wondering, has it been asked since then? If so, what did Martin say? Sorry to ask, but I really want to know and the search is not working :/

Damn, this theory creeped me out.

It has not been asked to Martin. I suggested the question to be asked at Martin's reading at the worldcon, but Stego of the BwB told us in no uncertain terms that his club doesn't take suggestions. There was also a thread from someone who claimed to be doing an interview with Martin, but that seems to have been a hoax.

[Galen M]

It has not been asked to Martin. I suggested the question to be asked at Martin's reading at the worldcon, but Stego of the BwB told us in no uncertain terms that his club doesn't take suggestions.

Explains why we always get the same shitty, useless questions asked at all the readings and signings. Would it be too much for once to ask about Jeyne's hips or if Benjen is coldhands?

[Lord Damian]

There might be something about that river under the tunnels. Some speculate they lead to Winterfell and the lower level of crypts. Perhaps it is some lava river that runs deep.

[ZacharyB]

Brandon the Builder erected a wall seperating northmen from the rest of westeros, leaving them to fend for themselves among the Others and their undead. Eddard Stark went into the tower of joy with 6 other men killing men of the kingsguard he respected above all others; Bloodraven killed many of his kinsmen during the Blackfyre Rebellion; Robb went into the Twins and had his men slaughtered and his mother killed; Catelyn captured Tyrion causing the division between Lannister and Stark and her husband to be killed. I could go on ad nauseum, but the point is shit happens in this series and there are numerous consequences.

If i was Bran would I feel more or less guilty for having drank the blood of my friend not knowing what it was or causing his death by having him lead me to my destiny? I'd probably feel exactly the same.

Likewise, it doesn't make me feel any more guilty that Jojen is probably going to die a cold death instead of being sacrificed. It just most likely didn't happen.

[shadowbinding shoe]

My impression was that the sacrifice at the weirwood was a very early memory. It comes at the end of a stream of memories going back in time. So the last memory was the memory of the Winterfel tree's birth. That is the dark secret we're supposed to figure. Weirwood trees are created by a human sacrifice.

As for Jojen I don't think his death's got anything to do with why he's gloomy (even if his sister fears that's the reason). He's gloomy because he lost his faith in the goodness of the Old Gods. He discovered that they're actually mortal skin-changers who merged with heart trees. What's worse, they seem to be the masters of the Others and the Wights, the ones pulling the strings behind the Long Winter Armageddon. The clue was not in the red streaked paste but in the section where Bran thinks how unhuman the Children are to not hate the human race for killing their race and stealing their lands and want revenge on them. In fact they do want revenge and that revenge is to be done through their cold servants.

Supposedly the wights gather under the snow at the cave's entrance to lay siege on them but it seems much more likely that they are their guardians against nosy foes, a sham to convince Bran's group that they are on their side and preserved food for their warged beasts such as Bloodraven's crows and Bran's direwolf. The winter is going to be very long but their ice larder will never empty. They don't put up much of a fight when Summer eats one of them.

The trees and beast give the Children eyes, but the Others give them arms and knives. I'm not sure where Bloodraven fits in all of this.

[Hugor Hill]

shadowbinding shoe, not sure if I completely agree, but I like your thoughts on this topic.

[Tini]

When Bran worried about Coldhands, Bloodraven told him that the wights cannot kill Coldhands because they killed him a long time ago. I thought that they might still tear him to pieces. But maybe they stopped fighting Coldhands as soon as Coldhands stopped fighting them, as soon as Bran, Jojen and Meera went inside the cave.

I still don't think that the wights are in front of the cave as guardians, allied with the children. I think the wights are drawn by living people.

[Tyrionthebest]

My impression was that the sacrifice at the weirwood was a very early memory. It comes at the end of a stream of memories going back in time. So the last memory was the memory of the Winterfel tree's birth. That is the dark secret we're supposed to figure. Weirwood trees are created by a human sacrifice.

As for Jojen I don't think his death's got anything to do with why he's gloomy (even if his sister fears that's the reason). He's gloomy because he lost his faith in the goodness of the Old Gods. He discovered that they're actually mortal skin-changers who merged with heart trees. What's worse, they seem to be the masters of the Others and the Wights, the ones pulling the strings behind the Long Winter Armageddon. The clue was not in the red streaked paste but in the section where Bran thinks how unhuman the Children are to not hate the human race for killing their race and stealing their lands and want revenge on them. In fact they do want revenge and that revenge is to be done through their cold servants.

Supposedly the wights gather under the snow at the cave's entrance to lay siege on them but it seems much more likely that they are their guardians against nosy foes, a sham to convince Bran's group that they are on their side and preserved food for their warged beasts such as Bloodraven's crows and Bran's direwolf. The winter is going to be very long but their ice larder will never empty. They don't put up much of a fight when Summer eats one of them.

The trees and beast give the Children eyes, but the Others give them arms and knives. I'm not sure where Bloodraven fits in all of this.

That would be stupid and it wouldn't make any sense because the children always helped the Night's Watch with dragon glass and plus they fought along with the First Men against the Others .

[Argilac]

What is Hodor supposed to be eating while he wonders the cave for days/weeks/who knows how long? Is there any mention of that?

[Nausicaä]

It has not been asked to Martin. I suggested the question to be asked at Martin's reading at the worldcon, but Stego of the BwB told us in no uncertain terms that his club doesn't take suggestions. There was also a thread from someone who claimed to be doing an interview with Martin, but that seems to have been a hoax.

Aw, I see. Thank you very much for the reply.

[Myrddin]

When Bran woke up at the end and didn't see them, I wondered how much time passed in the "real" world while he was out dreaming. (A rip Van Winkle type of thing)

The Reeds could be back at the wall by now, for all we know, especially given Bran's last chapter was only halfway through the book.

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

people are theorizing that Jojen may have ended up in the weirwood seed paste that Bran eats. he sees veins of sap that look like blood in the paste.

OMG that is so twisted!! I hope it is not true!

[Miriel]

My impression was that the sacrifice at the weirwood was a very early memory. It comes at the end of a stream of memories going back in time. So the last memory was the memory of the Winterfel tree's birth. That is the dark secret we're supposed to figure. Weirwood trees are created by a human sacrifice.

Bumping this old thread up as I just re-read the Bran chapter where he sees all these visions of the past. I don't believe that the man whose throat is slashed is a sacrifice to wake the tree. If this theory were true, the tree would not have been able to see anything prior to the sacrifice. But Bran sees "a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white haired woman stepped towards them through a drift of dark red leaves , a bronze sickle in her hand. ... The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle aroud his throat, and slashed."

The tree is 'seeing' prior to the blood flowing. How can this be if the blood sacrifice is needed to awaken the tree?

Also, these seem to be people Bran sees. (In other words, First Men, not Children of the Forest). Surely the trees were awake prior to the First Men arriving. So how can this be the Ur- sacrifice for this weirwood if it occurs as late in time as after the arrival of the First Men?

I never liked the idea of the trees being awakened by blood sacrifice coupled with poor Jojen as a further sacrifice in the paste. But now I don't think it is likely. I think we are shown the scene of the death of the captive for some other reason.

[Dragons Dancing]

According to the Wiki:

"The Children of the Forest, sometimes referred to simply as the "children" are the original inhabitants of Westeros, who lived alone throughout the continent of Westeros, long before the arrival of the First Men during the Dawn Age."

They are of the earth. They and their wierwoods were in Westeros before the First Men. I agree with Mirel that the death Bran sees in front of the wierwood was not a sacrifice that brought the weirwood to life. It may be that the First Men performed this act as a sacrifice to the COTF or that they wanted the COTF to witness this particular death.

I don't buy into the idea that Jojen's blood is in the weirwood past that Bran eats. I do think that the reader is supposed to wonder what is going to happen to Jojen as there are strong hints that he is seeing something very bad for himself. Whatever it is doesn't have to relate to the COTF but likely is something he thinks he cannot avoid. Remember that in one of his greendreams he saw Winterfell being flooded and took this literally when it was figuratively Theon/Iron Islands/Drowned God assault of Winterfell. Jojen doesn't always interpret his dreams correctly.

[Blizzard]

I liked the Reeds, I hope they are still fine. I think George just wanted to leave them out (or forgot). They should have a role to play, I think Jojen will get angry with BR and the Children and possibly die, he is in a sense home because he is with greenseers.

[tirhaka]

Bran being stuck in the cave would be the cruelest thing Martin has done in the series for me. Losing his legs, his family, his home, only to have to spend the rest of his life alone in a cave stuck to a tree? I've always felt that Martin hated the Starks, but damn.

i agree.. that would be tough to take man. Bran has been robbed of a hell of alot.

[Lord Damian]

Meera will probably survive, her brother Doubt it. I have hope for Brand and Meera.