Ser Duncan the Tall

[Serie]

Serie, ive been looking for that myself, I think it could be Hodor, Brienne, Sandor and Gregor.

maybe its a westerosi, urban myth then??? :dunno:

[Ser Tom Tarly]

Maybe so, your guess is as good as mine. Hopefully someone might post the link, but even better yet maybe GRRM will fill us in soon enough :-) im hoping that we may see Dunk and Old Nan hook up in the she wolves of Winterfell. If so I think he left her with more of Dunk the lunk than Ser Duncan the Tall.

[Teal'c]

Why does everyone say Brienne is for sure? She is from a noble house and Duncan was a nobody from flea bottom. Even though it is implied that he is really good looking, I doubt any nobleman would marry hs daughter to him. Then he joined the KG. So unless Tarth is the decendents of bastards I doubt he is related to her. That and IIRC he hasn't been to the storm lands yet.

Legends, p. 489

“An elm tree,” said Egg. “A big elm tree, like the one by the pool, with a brown trunk and green branches.”

“Yes,” Dunk said. “That would serve. An elm tree... but with a shooting star above. Could you do that?”

AFFC, 59-60 (Brienne 1)

Amidst discussion of shields and the devices painted thereon:

“[brienne] stacked her arms and shield…beneath an elm.”

AFFC, 140 (Brienne 2)

…“You did beautifully,” [brienne] said, when the woman showed her the freshly painted shield. It was more a picture than a proper coat

of arms, and the sight of it took her back through the long years, to the cool dark of her father’s armory. She remembered how she’d run her fingers across the cracked and fading paint, over the green leaves of the tree, and along the path of the falling star.

[Athanasius Pernath]

would you please elaborate?

cause it makes perfect sense with Hodor being Ser Duncan's descendant. If the girl is Old Nan then her grandson Hodor took after grandpa Duncan :)

yep, i try to elaborate in a understandable way (as usual, my english is usually bad and intricate, try to follow :P)

if i remember well (if i'm wrong all the speech is pointless, so tell me :)) Old Nan came to Winterfell as a girl to nurse a child Brandon Stark. we have no clue about who he was, but he surely never became Lord of Winterfell, so he could only be a brother-cousin of a firstborn Stark. not a heir, i mean. btw, coming back to the nurse stuff.

i suppose that nurse (when you speak about 'to nurse a child') is the translation of the italian "allattare". i mean..to give your 'milk' to the baby, not simply to raise him. is this correct?

well, the image in Bran's Vision is set in Dunk's time, more precisely after the 212 (second Blackfyre Rebellion) . i'd say IMMEDIATELY after, because before the event of TMK they're heading to the North to take service under lord Beron Stark (who i think died before they arrive in Winterfell, fighting the ironborn..but that just a supposition due to Martin words about the situation of Winterfell and its 'She-wolves')

BTW, let's assume that Dunk&Egg have a veeeeery slow travel, and arrive in WF one-one and half year later the events of TMK. so we are in 214.

84 years before the beginning of ASOIAF. so, to be Old Nan that girl, i have to believe that:

°at the beginning of the series (in 298 after Aegon), Old Nan is 100 years old (at LEAST. 'cause there's no way Martin will show us a Dunk in love with a 12-13 years old girl). i'm sorry, i know she's old, but no way she is THAT old.

°if she's younger - let's say 95, 96 or 97 (i don't believe it, but let's say i can accept that as an assumption) it means she's 11,12, 13 years old that time. and not only she's mature enough to be a Dunk love interest, but what's more important, she has already had children, 'cause now she is a nurse.

i may have said stupid things, so correct me. but seriously, how can she possibly be that girl?

P.S. there are also other, more weaks and more 'literary' reasons that make me sure about Hodor NOT being a Dunk grand-grand-nephew. Martin says "a knight tall like Hodor", and immediatly people think "wow, you see, he say that Dunk is tall like Hodor, surely it means they're related". but i dare to say that with Martin, contrariwise, this is a hint that they AREN't :)

[Serie]

yep, i try to elaborate in a understandable way (as usual, my english is usually bad and intricate, try to follow :P) if i remember well (if i'm wrong all the speech is pointless, so tell me :)) Old Nan came to Winterfell as a girl to nurse a child Brandon Stark. we have no clue about who he was, but he surely never became Lord of Winterfell, so he could only be a brother-cousin of a firstborn Stark. not a heir, i mean. btw, coming back to the nurse stuff. i suppose that nurse (when you speak about 'to nurse a child') is the translation of the italian "allattare". i mean..to give your 'milk' to the baby. is this correct? well, the image in Bran's Vision is set in Dunk's time, more precisely after the 212 (second Blackfyre Rebellion) . i'd say IMMEDIATELY after, because before the event of TMK they're heading to the North to take service under lord Beron Stark (who i think died before they arrive in Winterfell, fighting the ironborn..but that just a supposition due to Martin words about the situation of Winterfell and its 'She-wolves') BTW, let's assume that Dunk&Egg have a veeeeery slow travel, and arrive in WF one-one and half year later the events of TMK. so we are in 214. 84 years before the beginning of ASOIAF. so, to be Old Nan that girl, i have to believe that: °at the beginning of the series (in 298 after Aegon), Old Nan is 100 years old (at LEAST. 'cause there's no way Martin will show us a Dunk in love with a 12-13 years old girl). i'm sorry, i know she's old, but no way she is THAT old. °if she's younger - let's say 95, 96 or 97 (i don't believe it, but let's say i can accept that as an assumption) it means she's 11,12, 13 years old that time. and not only she's mature enough to be a Dunk love interest, but what's more important, she has already had children, 'cause now she is a nurse. i may have said stupid things, so correct me. but seriously, how can she possibly be that girl? P.S. there are also other, more weaks and more 'literary' reasons that make me sure about Hodor NOT being a Dunk grand-grand-nephew. Martin says "a knight tall like Hodor", and immediatly people think "wow, you see, he say that Dunk is tall like Hodor, surely it means they're related". but i dare to say that with Martin, contrariwise, this is a hint that they AREN't :)

wow, thanks! that was a great post.

I'm not good with timeline but I think it would be "safe" to have a +3 years error to this since Dunk might have spent time servicing other minor houses and Old Nan's age, for me, is debatable. I mean, Maester Aemon was like a hundred. Then again we've seen other 13 years old (or a bit older anyway) getting married (such as Sansa) and carrying a child (Dany for example).

but yes, your explanation makes sense...

[Green Giantsbane]

When Aemon left to be Maester at the Wall, an entire procession accompanied him there, including Bloodraven. Decent chance Dunc made it back up north? I might have read that wrong.

[dark sister]

I can't see it. With a few exception genes in Westeros seem to not only determine height/eye color/build but seem to have a greater nature vs. nurture effect. For examples all Starks seem to be honorable, Targs tend to tempers, Lannisters seem to have confidence, Boltons are evil.... Seeing Gregor and how un-chivalrous he is it is difficult to see him descended from Dunk.

I think what you say is interesting, and very true in Targaryen cases, because brother and sisters marry each other, so of course "nature" will be passed down. But at the same time, all these noble houses find it important to "nurture" certain traits. Even the Targs, who are genetically predisposed to have hot tempers and obsessive natures, they also ENCOURAGE those traits such as bravery, temper, etc. The same goes with the other houses: Lannisters seem to marry within their own family almost as closely as the Targaryens. Tywin married his first cousin Joanna, who also had blonde hair and green eyes, so it is not surprising that the twins got those same traits. And again, Tywin taught them how he thought a Lannister should behave. It's the same thing in the north, the Starks put a great deal of stock in being honorable, so they teach their children and grandchildren to be that way. As for WHY these families tend to have the same build/hair color/eye color etc., I can explain almost all of them except for the Starks, of whom people are always saying "he/she has the Stark eyes [grey eyes]". But obviously, when Ned married a Tully, four out of five children had Tully looks. Kind of odd, but I think it has to do with GRRM and many other authors' habits of making noble houses easily distinguishable by physical features.

As for Dunk's descendants, I'm sure there are more than four. Despite what anyone says, I believe that it could certainly be Old Nan whom Duncan was kissing, because Martin himself said that the timeline for the D&E stories happen "about" 100 years before ASOIAF begins. He's very free with that comment. He could also be kissing a Winterfell girl. It's obvious that noblewomen find him irresistible, not just common lasses. (I'm specifically remembering Lady Rohanne, and also Butterwell's bride, who pushes out her chest when he dips his lance to them, & this is AFTER the night he carried her up the stairs stark naked).

Brienne is a certainty, as far as I'm concerned. She even THINKS like Dunk (I'm too tired to get phrases from the book now, but it's in AFFC, where she thinks something like "no matter what, I will find your girls, Lady Stark!" which echoes something Duncan said in I think the first story, where he swears to serve Baelor Breakspear.) She's also thick as a castle wall - like literally, someone says that to her (Jaime, I believe).

There's also someone called Tallard the Tall(?) or something like that. His shield shows a pair of eyes, I think. That's a possibility.

The Cleganes are also entirely possible. It's the kind of irony George would go in for.

I also think that Oberyn might be descended from Dunk. I also agree with someone who said that Gerris Drinkwater could be descended from him and Tanselle Too-Tall.

[mcb]

I can't see it. With a few exception genes in Westeros seem to not only determine height/eye color/build but seem to have a greater nature vs. nurture effect. For examples all Starks seem to be honorable, Targs tend to tempers, Lannisters seem to have confidence, Boltons are evil.... Seeing Gregor and how un-chivalrous he is it is difficult to see him descended from Dunk.

Honor is taught, not congenital. If a Stark is honorable, it's because he has been taught honor by his father. The squires who bullied Howland Reed at Harrenhal apparently hadn't received such lessons, as stated verbatim by the Knight of the Laughing Tree. As for the Lannisters, we had weak Tytos and Lancel, phlegmatic Kevan, impetuous Cersei - their temperaments are all over the board. The same goes for the Targs, between Breakspear, Bloodraven, Rhaegar, Aemon, Viserys, etc. Robert's bastards generally don't show signs of his shitty character.

So yes, Gregor and Sandor could be Dunk's great-grandsons. And we know for a fact that House Clegane is brand new, established two generations ago.

[Ser Tom Tarly]

Dark Sister, thats the way I thought of it, honour and respect are something we learn from our parents not really in our genes ( this may not always be the case).

Mcb, thats true the Cleganes are a relatively new house, two generations could fit in with the timeline.

[Lord Warhammer]

It would be ironic if Gregor is the descendant of Dunk, whereas Dunk took chivalry seriously, Gregor is anything but chivalrous. He is the opposite of everything Dunk was.

I agree. But not so ironic considering that Sandor actually seems to have held those same chivalrous qualities in high regard until circumstances changed his mind and kind of makes him an anti-hero. 1 bad apple perhaps spoiled the bunch.

[Toccs]

I doubt the Clegane's are. But I'm much less doubtful regarding Brienne and Hodor.

ETA: Another one I think might be related to Dunk is Duckfield.

Yeah reading Tyrion's travels along the Rhoyne with Haldon and Duck sure do bring on Dunk and Egg flashbacks.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Brienne I'm sure of, I like Drinkwater & Duckfield. I always thought Hodor had a real giant's blood in him but I would be OK with him being a descendant of Dunk, we'll see how She Wolves shakes out. That other knight that is called "The Tall" could be but he is a bit of a nonentity right now. Oberyn (and thus all the Martell's) seems a bit unlikely. As for the Clegane's I hope not...I like Dunk & I want to like his descendants, I can't do that with these two, redemption arc for Sandor or no.

[chrisdaw]

yep, i try to elaborate in a understandable way (as usual, my english is usually bad and intricate, try to follow :P)

if i remember well (if i'm wrong all the speech is pointless, so tell me :)) Old Nan came to Winterfell as a girl to nurse a child Brandon Stark. we have no clue about who he was, but he surely never became Lord of Winterfell, so he could only be a brother-cousin of a firstborn Stark. not a heir, i mean. btw, coming back to the nurse stuff.

i suppose that nurse (when you speak about 'to nurse a child') is the translation of the italian "allattare". i mean..to give your 'milk' to the baby, not simply to raise him. is this correct?

well, the image in Bran's Vision is set in Dunk's time, more precisely after the 212 (second Blackfyre Rebellion) . i'd say IMMEDIATELY after, because before the event of TMK they're heading to the North to take service under lord Beron Stark (who i think died before they arrive in Winterfell, fighting the ironborn..but that just a supposition due to Martin words about the situation of Winterfell and its 'She-wolves')

BTW, let's assume that Dunk&Egg have a veeeeery slow travel, and arrive in WF one-one and half year later the events of TMK. so we are in 214.

84 years before the beginning of ASOIAF. so, to be Old Nan that girl, i have to believe that:

°at the beginning of the series (in 298 after Aegon), Old Nan is 100 years old (at LEAST. 'cause there's no way Martin will show us a Dunk in love with a 12-13 years old girl). i'm sorry, i know she's old, but no way she is THAT old.

°if she's younger - let's say 95, 96 or 97 (i don't believe it, but let's say i can accept that as an assumption) it means she's 11,12, 13 years old that time. and not only she's mature enough to be a Dunk love interest, but what's more important, she has already had children, 'cause now she is a nurse.

i may have said stupid things, so correct me. but seriously, how can she possibly be that girl?

P.S. there are also other, more weaks and more 'literary' reasons that make me sure about Hodor NOT being a Dunk grand-grand-nephew. Martin says "a knight tall like Hodor", and immediatly people think "wow, you see, he say that Dunk is tall like Hodor, surely it means they're related". but i dare to say that with Martin, contrariwise, this is a hint that they AREN't :)

You are correct in what a wet nurse is, but the Brandon Stark she said she nursed she says was a brother to Lord Rickard or Lord Rickard's father, she gets it muddled up in her stories suggesting she can't really remember and the story may stretch back even further generations, but in all her stories the boy died when he was 3.

Old Nan's age is given a more lengthy and weighty description than Aemon's, and Aemon is thought to be 102 when he dies.

She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms.

Old Nan had two sons and more than one daughter, but there is no mention of a husband.

If anything I'd say the timeline fits rather perfectly.

(edit)Don't see anyone in this thread mentioning left and right, they're both pretty likely.

[Lion of Judah]

I think the fact that House Clegane was a house of knights makes it very possible that they had some relation the Ser Duncan. however this would be a very disturbing irony IMO, so I hope they are not.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

°at the beginning of the series (in 298 after Aegon), Old Nan is 100 years old (at LEAST. 'cause there's no way Martin will show us a Dunk in love with a 12-13 years old girl). i'm sorry, i know she's old, but no way she is THAT old.

°if she's younger - let's say 95, 96 or 97 (i don't believe it, but let's say i can accept that as an assumption) it means she's 11,12, 13 years old that time. and not only she's mature enough to be a Dunk love interest, but what's more important, she has already had children, 'cause now she is a nurse.

Perhaps Dunk and Egg have more than one adventure in the North. The kiss could come in the fifth book, instead of the fourth.

[Antonius Pius]

I think the fact that House Clegane was a house of knights makes it very possible that they had some relation the Ser Duncan. however this would be a very disturbing irony IMO, so I hope they are not.

Yeah, me neither. House Clegane is quite young (only established when Sandors father/grandfather rescued Lord Tytos from his own lions), so it's possible.

[Jslay427]

Being a descendant if someone does not mean you will inherit any of their personality traits. Physical traits, yes, so with that logic the Cleganes could be of Dunks line, but I think it fits the story if Brienne is, because of her honor ect.

[King Aerys the Just]

I can't see it. With a few exception genes in Westeros seem to not only determine height/eye color/build but seem to have a greater nature vs. nurture effect. For examples all Starks seem to be honorable, Targs tend to tempers, Lannisters seem to have confidence, Boltons are evil....

Seeing Gregor and how un-chivalrous he is it is difficult to see him descended from Dunk.

True. In which case Brienne becomes an even better candidate, considering her personality.

[Djinn]

What about Greatjon, Smalljon, Crowfood and Whoresbane? 4 semi-giants in the same family! Bronze Yhon is also tall. Left and Right as well. Ser Tallad. Victarion and Andrik. Gerold Hightower.

Lots of possibilities.

[Lion of Judah]

Yeah, me neither. House Clegane is quite young (only established when Sandors father/grandfather rescued Lord Tytos from his own lions), so it's possible.

I never thought of that but the timing does indeed line up.