How did the female characters in GRRM books inspire the most...shall we say fervor?

[Eira Seren]

not trying to pick on anyone, just would like to point out that Ned is also incredibly naive and is still paying for it. though i see a lot less Ned hating going on than Sansa hating for being naive. some might say Ned deserves to be blasted just as strongly for his naivete, especially considering he is a grown man with a military background, experience as a general, and running a significant chunk of the kingdom for at least 14 years. Sansa is a twelve year old girl who has been utterly charmed by Joffrey and then crushed by him. As I recall, Ned may have made some stupid decisions when he was a teen/early twenties as well.

ETA: i find it strange that on my first read, i had a lot more sympathy for Ned than for Sansa. i certainly didn't expect more of Sansa? but maybe i did, because she is a female character? or maybe i had already glommed on to what i thought were more interesting storylines, like Jon at the Wall and Arya taking dancing lessons.

[Grip]

not trying to pick on anyone, just would like to point out that Ned is also incredibly naive and is still paying for it. though i see a lot less Ned hating going on than Sansa hating for being naive. some might say Ned deserves to be blasted just as strongly for his naivete, especially considering he is a grown man with a military background, experience as a general, and running a significant chunk of the kingdom for at least 14 years. Sansa is a twelve year old girl who has been utterly charmed by Joffrey and then crushed by him. As I recall, Ned may have made some stupid decisions when he was a teen/early twenties as well.

I think that some of those who hate Sansa does so because they feel that Sansa betrayed Ned, which eventually led to his death. Of course in the end it was Ned's own actions which led to his own demise and worse things, his mistakes were imo far worse since as you say Sansa is a child still and inexperienced. Ned could have acted differently regarding Cersei, but chose not to. That was a mistake and he paid for it. I do not blame Sansa for what happened in KL, and never have.

[The Lord's Kiss]

not trying to pick on anyone, just would like to point out that Ned is also incredibly naive and is still paying for it. though i see a lot less Ned hating going on than Sansa hating for being naive. some might say Ned deserves to be blasted just as strongly for his naivete, especially considering he is a grown man with a military background, experience as a general, and running a significant chunk of the kingdom for at least 14 years. Sansa is a twelve year old girl who has been utterly charmed by Joffrey and then crushed by him. As I recall, Ned may have madesome stupid decisions when he was a teen/early twenties as well.

ETA: i find it strange that on my first read, i had a lot more sympathy for Ned than for Sansa. i certainly didn't expect more of Sansa? but maybe i did, because she is a female character? or maybe i had already glommed on to what i thought were more interesting storylines, like Jon at the Wall and Arya taking dancing lessons.

I don't think Ned ever made any stupid decisions ever in his life until he became Hand. except maybe not telling Catelyn Jon's true parentage . He just watched Robert Baratheon make them until that whole rebellion thing started.

[Grip]

I don't think Ned ever made any stupid decisions ever in his life until he became Hand. except maybe not telling Catelyn Jon's true parentage . He just watched Robert Baratheon make them until that whole rebellion thing started.

Somehow he managed to handle the Boltons, Manderlys, Karstarks etc in the North so he cannot have been that bad at "politics". He just wasnt ready for southron politics, though having dealt with Roose one might think he should have been ready for Cersei but alas..

[Lyanna Stark]

How many male posters can identify with female characters at all? Ser Patreck for instance listed no female characters he can identify with. Perhaps this is one of the reasons the female characters get more flak: due to male readers simply not being used to identify with a female. It's a known fact in SFF that to succeed it is easier to choose a male protagonist and checking the literature forum and what people posted there, a lot of male readers said they picked books with male leads on purpose, and also novels written by men.

[SerStinger]

How many male posters can identify with female characters at all? Ser Patreck for instance listed no female characters he can identify with. Perhaps this is one of the reasons the female characters get more flak: due to male readers simply not being used to identify with a female. It's a known fact in SFF that to succeed it is easier to choose a male protagonist and checking the literature forum and what people posted there, a lot of male readers said they picked books with male leads on purpose, and also novels written by men.

I identify with Arya. She's the only character that I do identify with.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

How many male posters can identify with female characters at all? Ser Patreck for instance listed no female characters he can identify with. Perhaps this is one of the reasons the female characters get more flak: due to male readers simply not being used to identify with a female. It's a known fact in SFF that to succeed it is easier to choose a male protagonist and checking the literature forum and what people posted there, a lot of male readers said they picked books with male leads on purpose, and also novels written by men.

I do buy your premise about the whole female characters indentification problem and use of male protagonists being easier. But keep in mind that Ser Patreck was specifically responding to a poster asking if males can identify with male characters as strongly as females identify with the female ones. Not to mention that ASOIAF has more male characters, so one could identify mostly with these just by sample as well.

[Ahmrogar]

I was just honestly wondering.

I barely see any male characters inspire the long arguments and discussion that Sansa, Cersei, Catelyn, and Dany do. Now, I partake in these discussions as well, so I wanted to know what you guys think is the reason that we all respond so...PASSIONATELY to each of these strong women?

I know that I dislike Dany and love the other three, and find myself arguing with people the most about these characters.

Why do you think they supply such passion for us readers?

I don't know,

Jaime and Tyrion probably inspire some of the most divisive arguments I've seen in either gender. Maybe people don't like Sansa or Cersei quite so much, but this is because they are so fallible it is easy to criticise them.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

The topic referred to 'fervor', this does not exclusively mean negative though. Sansa seems to provoke more discussion than any other character for example, although I'm not sure if its numbers or a diehard few.

[peash]

I think the reason that the female characters (Cat, Cersei, Dany, and Sansa) encourage so much more 'fervour' than the men is that the men make decisions that to modern day readers are much more morally clear, e.g. whereas Cat's decision to release Jaime can be interpreted as politically savvy because she knew Tyrion would have to release her daughters or dumb because she is essentially trusting the Lannisters, but Jon's decision to join the Wildlings is good because it gives him a chance to gain intel on the Wildlings. Similarly almost all agree that Ned telling Cersei about the incest was dumb, but Sansa's story about the wolf incident being an intelligent compromise between shaming her future husband and exposing her sister to considerable (probably physical) punishment or a horrible betrayal of her birth family for her future marital family. Or Tyrion's actions in King's Landing can be justified easily as self-preservation, both against his sister and against Stannis. I could go on.

I also agree with SerStinger on the benefits of 'reactionary' vs 'educational' feminism. As a man there is nothing more annoying than having a criticism of a particular character's flaws being interpreted as a sexist attack, whereas I was watching a documentary about how Disney movies are sexist - for example, Snow White is in the kitchen cleaning, all Disney women are presented as overly sexualised features and behaviours - its an uncomfortable thought but you can see their point. For me at least, one way of presenting the feminist case is clearly more effective than the other.

[mormont]

[mod] Let's stick to the topic, please. If you've a point to make about how feminism might colour reactions to female characters in the work, make that point. But this isn't the place for general pontificating on your view of feminism in modern society, I'm afraid. Take that to GC. [/mod]

[Ser_Patreck]

You can relate to Tyrion who has done some really heinous things but dressing pretty and being a homosexual pretender is worse? I doubt you're as honorable as Ned, Quentyn, and Jon Snow. I doubt anybody is. Theon in my opinion is just a representation of never being truly comfortable in your surroundings, and I think there's a little of that in everyone, whether they want to admit it or not.

Wut? :stunned:

not trying to pick on anyone, just would like to point out that Ned is also incredibly naive and is still paying for it. though i see a lot less Ned hating going on than Sansa hating for being naive. some might say Ned deserves to be blasted just as strongly for his naivete, especially considering he is a grown man with a military background, experience as a general, and running a significant chunk of the kingdom for at least 14 years. Sansa is a twelve year old girl who has been utterly charmed by Joffrey and then crushed by him. As I recall, Ned may have made some stupid decisions when he was a teen/early twenties as well.

ETA: i find it strange that on my first read, i had a lot more sympathy for Ned than for Sansa. i certainly didn't expect more of Sansa? but maybe i did, because she is a female character? or maybe i had already glommed on to what i thought were more interesting storylines, like Jon at the Wall and Arya taking dancing lessons.

I see a lot of people saying that Ned is naïve, stupid, dumb, too good to live and lots of other things, and I've it to see a "Defend Ned" movement as strong as a "Defend Sansa" one.

In fact, every time Sansa is brought up, someone rises to point out that Ned was dumb and deserved to die more than Sasna deserved to be called a brat.

And yet, no one treats the (Undeserved, IMO) attacks on Ned as attacks on masculinity as a whole.

How many male posters can identify with female characters at all? Ser Patreck for instance listed no female characters he can identify with. Perhaps this is one of the reasons the female characters get more flak: due to male readers simply not being used to identify with a female. It's a known fact in SFF that to succeed it is easier to choose a male protagonist and checking the literature forum and what people posted there, a lot of male readers said they picked books with male leads on purpose, and also novels written by men.

I didn't list female characters because Gar Weg was asking, if I understood correctly, what male characters could be identified with to the extent Sansa can be identified with by women. That being said, I can identify with Arya and Brienne for being uncomfortable with the gender roles assigned to them, their general problematic relationship with social expectations, and in Arya's case, a certain... Tendency to be hung up with past offenses. I also have a lot of sympathy, which I can't explain, to Ellaria Sand. She's just so... Oh, and Sarella. Arianne's reminiscences about how she would ask about everything just sounded so me.

That being said, I do think there's a unfortunately dearth of other female POVs.

[Elder Sister]

not trying to pick on anyone, just would like to point out that Ned is also incredibly naive and is still paying for it. though i see a lot less Ned hating going on than Sansa hating for being naive.

I have to address this because I see this thought over and over on the board. Here's my take on what you wrote: Ned Stark was not stupid or naive. He was honorable, and didn't want to be party to the slaughter of innocent children. He chose to do the right thing knowing full well that the Lannisters were extremely dangerous, but he did it anyway. A person who chooses to do the right thing regardless of the threats around him is not stupid, they are simply refusing to allow circumstances to change their morality or belief system. I call that bravery.

Back to the topic (sorry for the slight derail), I think the characters that inspire the most fervor in us are the ones that we perceive to be at a disadvantage, whether through circumstance or birth (which is all the females in the series) because I think most of us feel a desire to protect them or help them in some way. Sansa goes from being a bratty tweenie to a real heroine over the course of her storyline. Arya is at first a tomboy, and then is forced into danger after danger during her many adventures. Jaime Lannister is at first, horrifically vile, and now has become a handicapped anti-hero that I cannot help but root for. Tyrion inspires so much fervor because he was handicapped from birth, and is then disfigured during a war.

The characters' weaknesses or frailties are what generate so much fervor, IMO.

[Ser_Patreck]

I have to address this because I see this thought over and over on the board. Here's my take on what you wrote: Ned Stark was not stupid or naive. He was honorable, and didn't want to be party to the slaughter of innocent children. He chose to do the right thing knowing full well that the Lannisters were extremely dangerous, but he did it anyway. A person who chooses to do the right thing regardless of the threats around him is not stupid, they are simply refusing to allow circumstances to change their morality or belief system. I call that bravery.

:bowdown: :love: :bowdown:

My faith in humanity is restored!

[RhaenysBee]

I find Daenerys's marriage to Drogo the most inspiring. Runner up is Sansa Stark's struggle while she is left alone in King's Landing from CoK. There were few scenes in ASOIAF that almost made me cry. Sansa building Snow-Winterfell was one of them. And that's why I pray Sansa will not become a player because that'll shatter all the love I bear her. She should just stay and gentle, innocent, feminine lady she is. She should just stay a good girl. I find her most inspiring this way.

And the Sand Snakes' love for Oberyn.

And Elia Martell on the whole.

Cersei, Asha and Arianne and late Daenerys represent me the path not to end up on.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

I wonder if most of the really vocal Sansa defenders are non-American, because she seems to me to be the kind of character not tailored to be the sort of cheeky, witty, bluntly speak your mind, action-packed sort of character trope that we Americans have been conditioned to love. I just wonder because this seems to be at least somewhat of an international board.

I think this is part of why Sansa doesn't wow me. You say "courtesy armor," I say "comes off as stiff and overly formal." I GET THAT using her "courtesy armor" is what works best for her. But the best I can manage is "meh," especially after the bad first impression she made on me.

I think she could really throw off that bad impression if she was just more active. She is by far the least active of all the main characters. There were no less than three different attempts/plans by other people (Tyrells, Sandor, LF) to smuggle her out of KL, all the while her plan is "I'll be really polite to everyone and never say what I'm thinking." BORING!

Everyone seems to think she is becoming the female junior Littlefinger (minus the icky pervy vibe) and I just don't see it. So she managed to suss out the reasoning behind one or two of his moves? Whoopie. I will admit AFFC was a bit of a blur because it was so rambling (even Jaime was mostly boring). Did she do something awesome there and I missed it?

[The Storm Queen]

I have to address this because I see this thought over and over on the board. Here's my take on what you wrote: Ned Stark was not stupid or naive. He was honorable, and didn't want to be party to the slaughter of innocent children. He chose to do the right thing knowing full well that the Lannisters were extremely dangerous, but he did it anyway. A person who chooses to do the right thing regardless of the threats around him is not stupid, they are simply refusing to allow circumstances to change their morality or belief system. I call that bravery.

Back to the topic (sorry for the slight derail), I think the characters that inspire the most fervor in us are the ones that we perceive to be at a disadvantage, whether through circumstance or birth (which is all the females in the series) because I think most of us feel a desire to protect them or help them in some way. Sansa goes from being a bratty tweenie to a real heroine over the course of her storyline. Arya is at first a tomboy, and then is forced into danger after danger during her many adventures. Jaime Lannister is at first, horrifically vile, and now has become a handicapped anti-hero that I cannot help but root for. Tyrion inspires so much fervor because he was handicapped from birth, and is then disfigured during a war.

The characters' weaknesses or frailties are what generate so much fervor, IMO.

I totally agree with you that Ned warning Cersei in order to save her children was one of the most noble acts in the book thus far (and I love how it was being mirrored by Sansa helping Lancel during Blackwater but this is another topic). To me the "naive" part was not the act himself but the expectation that Cersei would actually leave the country. I always wondered why Ned did not send some men with her to supervise if she she really was leaving and not plotting something.

Concerning the main topic: What makes me angry is that I often get the feeling that in this forum females are judged more harshly than men. Anyone remembers the worst people thread where Catelyn was at the same level with the likes of Gregor, Ramsay et al.? People who placed her there often argued that it was due to her treatment of Jon which seemingly made her as evil as a serial killer and psychopath. On the other hand we have posters who argue that Tarly sen. is a BAMF and justify his parenting methods or - seen in a recent Victarion discussion - posters who say that Victarion´s "wife" "had it coming". This is just something that disturbs me, especially because I have seen it far to often here. Thankfully this board has a strict anti-rape-advocacy policy but nevertheless I have heard some really bad things here (the worst was one year ago when a poster claimed that Sansa should be grateful towards Tyrion and at least gift him with a blow job to reward his "goodness"). This kind of stuff can make one very defensive of female characters especially if their blight is something many woman in the 21st Century are familiar with.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

Dany had great arcs in AGOT and ASOS. ACOK was meh, but that's okay. It was a bridge to the ass-kicking she does in ASOS. ADWD was a total clusterfuck, but I think it will serve similarly to ACOK and be the bridge to more kicking ass and taking names in TWOW and ADOS, although how she is going to deal with Mereen, deal with her dragons, deal with Khal Jhaqo, traverse Essos, sail (or fly) to and conquer Westeros in two books is beyond me.

[RhaenysBee]

I wonder if most of the really vocal Sansa defenders are non-American, because she seems to me to be the kind of character not tailored to be the sort of cheeky, witty, bluntly speak your mind, action-packed sort of character trope that we Americans have been conditioned to love. I just wonder because this seems to be at least somewhat of an international board.

I think this is part of why Sansa doesn't wow me. You say "courtesy armor," I say "comes off as stiff and overly formal." I GET THAT using her "courtesy armor" is what works best for her. But the best I can manage is "meh," especially after the bad first impression she made on me.

I think she could really throw off that bad impression if she was just more active. She is by far the least active of all the main characters. There were no less than three different attempts/plans by other people (Tyrells, Sandor, LF) to smuggle her out of KL, all the while her plan is "I'll be really polite to everyone and never say what I'm thinking." BORING!

Everyone seems to think she is becoming the female junior Littlefinger (minus the icky pervy vibe) and I just don't see it. So she managed to suss out the reasoning behind one or two of his moves? Whoopie. I will admit AFFC was a bit of a blur because it was so rambling (even Jaime was mostly boring). Did she do something awesome there and I missed it?

As I mentioned her scene that really touched my heart was when she built a snow castle. Now I could go into a personal anecdote and tell why it touched me so, but I don't think anybody would be interested. For me it was really just how she grew up and started caring for things that are really important.

As for international board... you surely have a point. I haven't been discussing Sansa much, because the threads going on about her are mostly circling around Sansa becoming the mini Littlefinger. And I really don't want that to happen. And as you suggested, it may have a lot to do with my culture. I want Sansa to remain Sansa. Not everybody turns into a witty, cheeky action packed, ambitious woman.

As for courtesy as her armor I do agree with you for Game of Thrones. But then courtesy actually became armor, the only thing that saved her from the Lannisters and Joffrey. She HAD to be distant and formal in order to stay alive. I also have to say I hated Sansa in Game of Thrones. CoK was meh and she kind of grew onto me during SoS and mostly with her snow castle. One last thing to the international board. I don't mean to offend anybody, I haven't known too many Americans, but what I experienced suggests me that the reason you find Sansa's courtesy stiff and formal, because Americans in general are rather friendly and genial from the very first moment you meet them. What do you think about that as an American? :)

[Kittykatknits]

I have a bad feeling this thread is going to get ugly fast

When it comes down to it, the reason (IMO) female readers will passionately defend some of the female characters in the series, and particularly on certain issues, is because we do combat these same issues and criticisms in our own lives. Women have to deal with sexism, misogyny, double standards, slut shaming, harassment, assault and other biased judgements and abuses which attempt to diminish our value and restrict our agency. Coming to a forum and seeing the same kinds of prejudices being perpetuated under the guise of critical analysis makes me pretty mad. Of course, I am not claiming to represent all the female readers of ASOIAF, just giving my opinion on where I'm coming from.

You represent me just fine. I see it all the time in the form of gender based insults (use of the words slut, whore, bitch used to describe the female characters). Sansa is called shallow while Tyrion is not. The fact that Sansa actually made it to the top ten list of most horrible people in Westeros. Seriously, she is up there with Gregor, Biter, and Ramsey. I regularly see justifications for Tyrion's treatment of the sex slave in Volantis. I regularly see arguments explaining away domestic violence and rape, "she did it too". I've seen statements on this board that make me sick to my stomach.

I also notice the most popular female characters tend to be those that use traditionally masculine traits while those most frequently disparaged use more feminine traits to solve problems.

Funny, I get the same rage whenever someone says "Ned was honorable but stupid", "Stupid Ned honor", or "Stupid, boring Quentyn Martell". Or, God forbid, "Whining, self-piteous Tyrion" (Tangent: The word "whining" contains such "Internet tough guy's" disregard for human feelings, invalidation even, that I hate it in any circumstance and make the most to NOT use it).

I would too. But, I see a much higher number of posts with these type of comments about female characters than I do men.

Personally, I find it unnerving when someone hates Dany/Sansa/Catelyn but cheers for Jaime or Tyrion. I get that Jaime is cool and always has a funny oneliner to offer, but do you realize that he never felt any remorse for attempting to kill a little boy? Yet his crimes are absolved in a wink and rarely ever talked about. He remains an uncontroversial character. It's frustrating when the same people who unconditionally like him can get worked up about someone like Sansa. It's like the crimes of an adult male are forgivable, but the good intententions of an eleven year old girl are not.

I think there is a double standard somewhere down the line and I react pretty strongly to that, if justified or not.

It's ok if people don't like Dany/Sansa/Catelyn (I'm excluding Cersei on purpose, she is clearly written as an antagonist). I just think it questionable when someone objects against these characters for reasons that don't seem to matter when it comes to other characters.

Overall it's fascinating how many heated arguments are sparked off by ASOIAF, many of them (presumably) along gender lines.

This. So Much this. There does seem to be a very strong double standard here. Jaime and Tyrion are constantly being given a pass for their actions. Roose is admired and I've seen appreciation threads for Gregor and Ramsey.

In a way you're right. I can only speak for myself, but sometimes I do take certain criticism of her as an "attack on all women".

This is mostly the case when we talk about the hot mess of the Sansa/Tyrion marriage. When people criticize Sansa for not being nice enough to Tyrion and not appreciating him enough - sorry, I can't help viewing it in an abstract way. I'm not necessarily thinking about Sansa and Tyrion then, I'm thinking about an twelve year old girl who is forced to marry someone thrice her age, someone she is disgusted by. I see a girl that is in a horrible situation and blamed for not being graceful about it. And then I feel protective and want to defend her.

It's not like it's a matter of fantasy novels. Millions of girls (sometimes as young as eight year old) are married off each year. I'm sure many of them get blamed by the husband's family if they don't act obediently or happy enough.

Again, I agree. I have seen more than one post stating that Sansa should have given him a "pity fuck", and yes, that is an exact quote. I constantly see posts that describe Tyrion as the bigger victim and put the emphasis on his pain and hurt. I find it appalling that so many posters put the failure of their marriage on Sansa's shoulders as she was not nice enough, failed to find common cause, failed to see he was a good person, or failed to appreciate him. Let's be clear, Sansa was a prisoner and a hostage. Tyrion never hit her and was never cruel to her but he was one of the people that kept her a prisoner. But, to Sansa he added the title husband as well as jailer. As long as I see posts putting any blame on Sansa, I'm going to challenge it.

I'll also add that as long as I see posts making incorrect statements about female characters, I'll challenge it. For the record:

- Sansa did not get Lady killed. Lady was as good as dead as soon as Arya attacked Joffrey, it did not matter what Sansa said or did at this point. Rather than look at just the scene where Sansa talks, you need to look at multiple chapters, multiple books, and multiple POVs. The truth is that Cersei was out for blood and wanted a wolf killed. Her and Robert argued about it all night. She took advantage of the situation and Robert, bad ruler that he is. let her.

-Catelyn is not responsible for Robb's mistakes. She is the one that argued against sending Theon off to Balon and pushed for him to find allies. She was usually his most level headed advisor too. Look at the scene when they need to negotiate to cross the Twins. All of the men are arguing for Robb to attack and openly antagonizing the Freys who came out to talk. Catelyn was the only voice of reason there.