The Irony of Tywin Lannister

[drayrock]

What a great ironic character.. I'd love to discuss an analyze all his ironies. We can all agree he was tactically efficient and somewhat forward thinking forward at least for his house's benefit

1. The fact that he hates tyrion...and tyrion is the son at least in brain and wit that he most desires.

2. The fact that what he wants and what he desires his kids to be...are exactly what the stark children are, yet he does his best to destroy them.

3. In acting in the vicious way he does, he actually creates children more morally bankrupt then himself. This moral bankruptcy leads to entitlement with self blinding pride and and in cersei's case, to the point of paranoid schizophrenia for power. That end up ruining his house.

4. The fact that Robb exemplifies everything he wanted Jaime to be. The leader of his house and liege lord of his kingdom, a fearless batlle commander who not only is good in battle but inspires loyalty from his troops and is also a tactician and not a headstrong fighter. Tyrion even notes this to Tywin who rubs it off.

5. The fact that Myrcella even a had a crush on Robb and perhaps in a more albiet infantile way saw what he couldn't see.

Any more?

oh yeah that he died a smelly death instead of a golden one.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

Everything he's done to 'protect' his house and his family has only led to its slow destruction. His children hate him and in the end he's become a shell of what he once was. The only thing worse than dying the way he did would be for him to have seen how high in regard the Starks are held and how little his family is now held by Westeros. He got his butt kicked by Robb and the whole world saw it, and he had to resort to treachery to save himself.

[Loon Lord]

I don't really have anything to add, other than this is an awesome thread and not enough people bash Tywin Lannister

[Starfell]

Oh Like Button, how I miss you.

My only regret is that Tywin was killed off so early, I really wanted to see how he'd react to watching everything he'd touched turn to shit and being dependent on people like Mace Tyrell to keep his family in power. Still, crossbow-toilet death does pretty much make up for that so I'm happy

[Fire Eater]

He thought of Jaime as heir even though he was more Gerion than Tywin in personality.

He is haunted by the memory of his father on the bad reputation of House Lannister, and has made to saefguard Lannister honor, but the actions and himself and his favorite child, Jaime brought more dishonor on his house than his father ever did. The honor of House Lannister has become a joke with people saying that the Lannisters have shit for honor.

[NorthRemembers]

Despite Ned Stark's supposed naivete with regards to poliics, he was able to figure out the real father of Jeoffrey/Tommen/Myrcella, yet the paragon of canny, Tywin wasn't.

[greensleeves]

How about this for irony:

Tywin, who always thought of himself as the true, acting king, was sitting on a throne at the end! :laugh:

[Stannisport]

I've noticed that as well, but Tywin is actually one of my favourite characters despite of this. Hopefully Daven Lannister will not mess things up so badly as Tywin's children did. The Lannisters have basically made enemies of ALL the great houses, and they're paying dearly for it. I don't think that dynasty that will last for thousands of years, that he dreamed of, will ever come true. His own daughter made sure to sour the alliance that kept them in power (Tyrells).

I think his BIGGEST mistake though, was not to marry again after Lady Joanna died. If he had married and fathered at least one more son, the house would be much better of. I still can't figure out why such a great tactician and clever mind didn't swallow his grief, and marry a new wife.

[Lord Flashheart]

He thought of Jaime as heir even though he was more Gerion than Tywin in personality.

He is haunted by the memory of his father on the bad reputation of House Lannister, and has made to saefguard Lannister honor, but the actions and himself and his favorite child, Jaime brought more dishonor on his house than his father ever did. The honor of House Lannister has become a joke with people saying that the Lannisters have shit for honor.

The scene in GOT where Tywin tells Jamie all that matters is the family name is one of those things where I wish we got to see more of that POV in the earlier books.

[Cas Stark]

Irony is the right word. His entire life has been dedicted to restoring and advancing the power of House Lannister, and he did a brilliant job, the Lannisters are the richest and most powerful House. His daughter is queen and his grandchildren will rule Westeros and the other major Houses through marriage. He brooks no disrespect to his family.

But, his achilles heel is, in fact, his own family. He fails to notice the incest which directly led to his heir abandoning his duty and legacy of Casterly Rock and providing a direct line of children to inherit it. He fails to notice his daughter is bat shit crazy and has raised her eldest son to be a sadistic twit who is even more incapable of ruling than his mother. He fails to notice the capabilities of his youngest son and instead heaps ridicule on him until he shoots him with a crossbow, which is the beginning of the end for the Lannister's power.

So, all of his plotting, his management, his machinations will come to nothing because he neglected to impart any wisdom or affection to the children he wanted to give this legacy to. Ironic indeed.

[drayrock]

Despite Ned Stark's supposed naivete with regards to poliics, he was able to figure out the real father of Jeoffrey/Tommen/Myrcella, yet the paragon of canny, Tywin wasn't.

I always thought he knew but at this point was in a sort of self denial.

[Fire Eater]

Irony is the right word. His entire life has been dedicted to restoring and advancing the power of House Lannister, and he did a brilliant job, the Lannisters are the richest and most powerful House. His daughter is queen and his grandchildren will rule Westeros and the other major Houses through marriage. He brooks no disrespect to his family.

But, his achilles heel is, in fact, his own family. He fails to notice the incest which directly led to his heir abandoning his duty and legacy of Casterly Rock and providing a direct line of children to inherit it. He fails to notice his daughter is bat shit crazy and has raised her eldest son to be a sadistic twit who is even more incapable of ruling than his mother. He fails to notice the capabilities of his youngest son and instead heaps ridicule on him until he shoots him with a crossbow, which is the beginning of the end for the Lannister's power.

So, all of his plotting, his management, his machinations will come to nothing because he neglected to impart any wisdom or affection to the children he wanted to give this legacy to. Ironic indeed.

True, a lot of the problems the Lannisters face are a result of Tywin's failure as a father. If he had seen Tyrion's worth and not been so abusive, than Tyrion wouldn't have shot a crossbow through his bowels. The War of the Five Kings began because of Jaime and Cersei's incest, if Tywin had paid more attention to them he would have realized the true extent of their relationship. His house is now divided against itself as a result of his poor parenting.

[drayrock]

I wonder if George meant to make the Stark children everything the Lannister were not...well of course he did but more so that Tywin wanted kids like that or saw his own kids to be that when really they were all the bad parts of him multiplied by ten becuase they never had to work for anything.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Great OP. But I'd add that all Tywin's children still use his ruling style as a template for their own behavior. Genna (or is it Gemma?) Lannister's comments about Tyrion being Tywin's son are poignant. Tywin forced his children to toughen to the world by his iron-fisted approach to child rearing, while Ned's kids had to do the same thing by virtue of being abandoned to a crueler world than they were brought up in.

Tywin comes off as an evil prick, but on a re-read he's not as harsh-- he gives Tyrion a chance to prove his worth (though really he's just using him as a tool for a task) and he quickly diminishes Joff's influence on the realm. Part of the magic is that he's not a POV and he looms so large in the consciousness of his children that he attains a demi-god like status to the reader as a hard, implacable ruler that will grind out his will to the bitter end. The Rains of Castamere is a testament to his arch-dedication to immortalizing the family name.

At the same time, he'd easily trade Tyrion's life to continue the Tyrell's support of his house; there's no reason to think he wouldn't have had Tyrion executed as opposed to letting him take the black. The Genna line about men that come along once in a thousand years was the best.

ETA: in case it wasn't clear: nicely put OP!

[Minstral]

How about the irony of his fathers "whore". Kevan notes that his father asked her advice in matters of state, played a part of running the Lannister Household, and "stole" their mothers jewels. How much do you want to bet that she was not a whore that manipulated Tytos, but was much more like Vogarro's "whore". A woman that had skill but was destroyed simply because of her past status.

[drayrock]

Great OP. But I'd add that all Tywin's children still use his ruling style as a template for their own behavior. Genna (or is it Gemma?) Lannister's comments about Tyrion being Tywin's son are poignant. Tywin forced his children to toughen to the world by his iron-fisted approach to child rearing, while Ned's kids had to do the same thing by virtue of being abandoned to a crueler world than they were brought up in.

Tywin comes off as an evil prick, but on a re-read he's not as harsh-- he gives Tyrion a chance to prove his worth (though really he's just using him as a tool for a task) and he quickly diminishes Joff's influence on the realm. Part of the magic is that he's not a POV and he looms so large in the consciousness of his children that he attains a demi-god like status to the reader as a hard, implacable ruler that will grind out his will to the bitter end. The Rains of Castamere is a testament to his arch-dedication to immortalizing the family name.

At the same time, he'd easily trade Tyrion's life to continue the Tyrell's support of his house; there's no reason to think he wouldn't have had Tyrion executed as opposed to letting him take the black. The Genna line about men that come along once in a thousand years was the best.

ETA: in case it wasn't clear: nicely put OP!

Thanks! I agree the Archtype decision is the Red Wedding...and it's also interesting how he distances himself from the RW as much as possible even though its his work and how he defeated his enemy. Probably because ironically he knows this may have just secured the throne and his family's rule and therefore the lasting legacy he wants for his family, but in a different way then intended... also securing their reputation as being a cruel, dishonorable and untrustworthy line for the rest of time as well.

[danm_999]

How about the irony of his fathers "whore". Kevan notes that his father asked her advice in matters of state, played a part of running the Lannister Household, and "stole" their mothers jewels. How much do you want to bet that she was not a whore that manipulated Tytos, but was much more like Vogarro's "whore". A woman that had skill but was destroyed simply because of her past status.

Well Kevan describes her as the daughter of a candlemaker. There's no indication that she was a whore professionally at all, and Tywin and Kevan seem to mean it in the sense that a commoner being with a lord must mean the commoner is doing it for the money. It's exactly the same meaning Tywin imposes on the Tyrion-Tysha pairing; but he goes one step further and lies to Tyrion about her being a literal whore.

It's too bad for Tywin that Tytos and Tyrion weren't upstanding moral individuals and did something not depraved; like marry their cousins.

[Tourne-Toujours]

Tywin's attitude towards Tytos paramour and Tyrions wife are a good example of the rigidity of Westeros' class structure. It's more of a social failing than Tywin's personal failing. shaming one and orchestrating the gang rape of the other are more along the line of his personal dickishness

[Mladen]

How about this for irony:

Tywin, who always thought of himself as the true, acting king, was sitting on a throne at the end! :laugh:

Or better, someone who has been related to crapping gold, actually died crapping...

[Minstral]

Tywin's attitude towards Tytos paramour and Tyrions wife are a good example of the rigidity of Westeros' class structure. It's more of a social failing than Tywin's personal failing. shaming one and orchestrating the gang rape of the other are more along the line of his personal dickishness

You really think so? Sure there are lords and nobles that react like Samwell's father, or the Freys reacting to Robb taking Jeyne as a wife, but it is not a definitive thing. Sure a father may try to get his children to not go into what he deems an unsuitable match, but the reaction would not always be "You there whore who married my dwarf son that I despise, strip and service my entire garrison". Fathers that have actual warmth for their children may not wish to give a reason to turn their daughters and heirs against them, Tywin just didn't care because the feelings he has for Tyrion are almost as cold as the Wall.

Or better, someone who has been related to crapping gold, actually died crapping...

People just didn't look close enough to notice during the Reign of "Tywin the Great/Butcher"