R+L=J Alternatives that also Explain Tower of Joy Events

[Nami]

It really annoys me all these theories of people hiding somewhere, hidden Targs, dead characters are alive pretending to be someone else etc

can we stop?

If GRRM keeps pulling that card it will be really lame

I go with R+L=J because it's almost 100% sure, but I really hope this kind of revelation stops there. I can accept that fAegon is a Blackfyre and that's it

Let the dead people stay dead

[Not Dead Just Broken]

1.It's either Riverrun or on the road to Riverrun.

2.We'd have to know what the promise was for that.

If he failed to keep his promise, how does R+L=J work?

[Morienthar]

If he failed to keep his promise, how does R+L=J work?

Not a clue,R+L=J assumes he kept the promise.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

What the Tower of Joy sequence tells us is that Lyanna probably had a baby, Rhaegar was probably the father, Eddard took it to Starfall, Ashara disappeared in mysterious circumstances, and Eddard went back to Winterfell.

R + L = J explains all of this except what happened to Ashara. R + L = Young Griff/Ashara = Septa Lemore explains all of these things.

So the promise would be "Ned, protect my son from Robert."

"Okay, I will take him to Winterfell and claim he is mine."

"No, you can't do that. He has silver hair and purple eyes. Take him to the Daynes and get Ashara to take him far away. Promise me, Ned."

This is a good one :) I like the baby swap idea better than a blackfyre coming back.....but the likelihood....well

Anyway, like your thought.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Let the dead people stay dead

I think the Others and the Red Priests will make that difficult!

(Just kidding -- I know what you mean and I sympathize...)

[Ygrain]

Not a clue,R+L=J assumes he kept the promise.

"He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them."

Note that he promised more than one thing.

[Addam of Hull]

Ned actually made multiple promises to Lyanna. It's never just the singular sense of the word that's used when Ned thinks about Lyanna. Along the same lines, iirc, he reflects on both the price he's paid to keep his secrets and some of his promises and about the fact that he's broken some of them. What these promises are we still don't know, but obviously they must be pretty important since they haunt Ned so much.

[Silent_Hero]

Ned actually made multiple promises to Lyanna. It's never just the singular sense of the word that's used when Ned thinks about Lyanna. Along the same lines, iirc, he reflects on both the price he's paid to keep his secrets and some of his promises and about the fact that he's broken some of them. What these promises are we still don't know, but obviously they must be pretty important since they haunt Ned so much.

And also to the fact he won't share them with anyone not even his wife.

Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. {Ned thought}

AGOT p357

"Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know."

AGOT p65

It pretty damn obivious Jon has something to do with it. You'd think a honorable man like Ned would atleast have the decency to tell his wife who the mother of his bastard child is but no he doesn't...because he can't.

[alienarea]

If he failed to keep his promise, how does R+L=J work?

It doesn't. :-)

[Castellan]

I am interested in his broken promises, which cross his mind in the dungeon in KL. I think a major one was promising to tell Jon about his mother the next time he spoke with him, which he now realises will never happen. But I think he mentions broken promises plural.

[Ygrain]

I am interested in his broken promises, which cross his mind in the dungeon in KL. I think a major one was promising to tell Jon about his mother the next time he spoke with him, which he now realises will never happen. But I think he mentions broken promises plural.

He promised that on the show, not in the books.

I also wonder what those broken promises were, because unlike those to the dying Lyanna which he kept, these are unspecified.

[SwordInDaDarkness]

Thanks.

I think you are right that Eddard did not spend 9 months in Starfall after the end of the Rebellion. So if Ashara is Jon's mother, Ashara and Eddard had to meet and conceive Jon about 9 months or so before the Tower of Joy fight. This is possible, since Mr Martin has said that Ashara was not nailed to the floor in Starfell during the rebellion. Also, we know Catelyn Stark went all the way from Riverrun to Storm's End and back during the War of 5 kings, so there is no reason to think Ashara did not get as far as Harrenhall or wherever Eddard was camped out at the right time for them to meet.

As for why Ashara would give up Jon to look after Griff, Delena Florent gave up Edric Storm so he would be raised at Storm's End -- by his uncle. Maybe Ashara made Eddard promise to raise Jon himself, which is a better deal than even a king's bastard would get?

More questions

Why should Ned be so butthurt when someone mentions Jon's mother? It seems Ashara was important to him but why not just tell at least Jon that his mother was Ashara who is now thought dead? This is even more pressing if it's Wylla.

Why would Ned risk a Targaryen child to be sent away with Ashara and then possibly be groomed to ascend the Iron Throne in his family's name when he fought a year to put his best friend there?

Where does Varys' baby switch story come in here?

[Ruby Chevrolet]

More questions

Why should Ned be so butthurt when someone mentions Jon's mother? It seems Ashara was important to him but why not just tell at least Jon that his mother was Ashara who is now thought dead? This is even more pressing if it's Wylla.

Why would Ned risk a Targaryen child to be sent away with Ashara and then possibly be groomed to ascend the Iron Throne in his family's name when he fought a year to put his best friend there?

Where does Varys' baby switch story come in here?

The only time Eddard gets angry about this is when Catelyn asks a question about both Ashara and Jon. Eddard makes sure that Ashara's name is never heard in Winterfell again.

In other words, questions about Jon's mother and questions about Ashara are the same thing. They are dangerous because the last thing Eddard wants is to have Jon running off to Starfall asking questions about Ashara and discovering that she is actually alive and harboring Rhaegar's son.

Also, Eddard's main concern is to protect the baby from Robert. He doesn't have many options to accomplish that. He does not think an exiled Tararyen in Essos is a threat to Robert.

If this theory is correct it probably means Varys is lying about the baby swap with the real Aegon.

[alienarea]

There are so many possibilities. We always argue like a pregnancy is always 9 months, and a 8 month old child is clearly distinguishable from a 6 month old child, for example. In real life this is not the case.

Just for arguments sake, Jon could be a bit older than we are told, and be Brandon's and Ashara's child. And Ashara took Lyanna's child with Targaryen features to Essos while Ned takes Jon to Winterfell.

[Ygrain]

There are so many possibilities. We always argue like a pregnancy is always 9 months, and a 8 month old child is clearly distinguishable from a 6 month old child, for example. In real life this is not the case.

Just for arguments sake, Jon could be a bit older than we are told, and be Brandon's and Ashara's child. And Ashara took Lyanna's child with Targaryen features to Essos while Ned takes Jon to Winterfell.

We are told not in the books but by GRRM, and while he can mislead or be evasive, he doesn't lie, and he said that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, and Dany was born 9 months after Rhaella fled for Dragonstone.

And I really do not see why question the length of pregnancy, it could be slightly more or slightly less, but not a year, so Brandon is not an option.

And, if Ashara is in some way involved, either as mother or fake-suicide helper, I'm most curious about an explanation why Ned spends so much time thinking about Lyanna and blue roses and doesn't give the slightest wisp of a thought to Ashara in any thinkable way, ever.

[alienarea]

We are told not in the books but by GRRM, and while he can mislead or be evasive, he doesn't lie, and he said that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany, and Dany was born 9 months after Rhaella fled for Dragonstone.

And I really do not see why question the length of pregnancy, it could be slightly more or slightly less, but not a year, so Brandon is not an option.

And, if Ashara is in some way involved, either as mother or fake-suicide helper, I'm most curious about an explanation why Ned spends so much time thinking about Lyanna and blue roses and doesn't give the slightest wisp of a thought to Ashara in any thinkable way, ever.

Because he knows Ashara is still alive and Lyanna isn't?

[The guy from the Vale]

Because he knows Ashara is still alive and Lyanna isn't?

Wouldn't he then think about Ashara more, particularly if he really loved her?

[Ygrain]

Because he knows Ashara is still alive and Lyanna isn't?

By that logic, he should never give any thought to Catelyn or any other family member, yet he does.

[Anderson Homeu]

Assuming that Rhager and Lyanna were in love or possibly married is one thing, but then assuming they had a child is another thing. Then assuming Jon is the end result is yet another. The Kingsguard protects the Royal Family so for all we know there might be yet another child out there somewhere. It doesn't HAVE to be Jon.

[Ygrain]

Assuming that Rhager and Lyanna were in love or possibly married is one thing, but then assuming they had a child is another thing. Then assuming Jon is the end result is yet another. The Kingsguard protects the Royal Family so for all we know there might be yet another child out there somewhere. It doesn't HAVE to be Jon.

Lyanna spent the better part of the year in the company of a young man who had already fathered two children and who, by all accounts, fancied her, and she died in a bed of blood, which is a phrase consistently used as a childbirth reference throughout the series. So, a child there was, and there is not exactly an abundance of children with mysterious background.