why the HBO show 'MIGHT' have f****d up

[Khal Porno]

Yeah, but why did he HAVE to marry her? Because he CHOSE to besmirch her honor in the first place (from his point of view), regardless of how you want to rationalize that decision. The real "honorable" thing to do would have been not to touch her in the first place.

By the way, I don't believe for a second that they weren't in love beforehand, otherwise it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

[go joff go]

They took the honor part out b/c it would have been stupid, I can't believe book purists can't see this. How can anyone visualize any scene between 20 yr old Robb and Cat where he says he does it for honor and not see what a unmitigated disaster it would be. ITs not even 1% believable. If he were 15 sure but he is not in the show so let it go

[echidna]

Re them making GoT in 8 seasons - yes, they can do that. There will be a lot of subplots cut out but that is not unusual. Its rather like there really is not a tv saga that shows rvery battle and decision from every country in World War 2 or the Napoleonic Wars

[Colonel Green]

They took the honor part out b/c it would have been stupid, I can't believe book purists can't see this. How can anyone visualize any scene between 20 yr old Robb and Cat where he says he does it for honor and not see what a unmitigated disaster it would be. ITs not even 1% believable. If he were 15 sure but he is not in the show so let it go

As opposed to all the stuff that 40something Ned does for honour in the series? Indeed, Robb trying to be like Ned is the whole point.

[go joff go]

Um, Ned married Cat so no Ned wouldn't have done what Robb did. Ned did what Robb should have done.

[Colonel Green]

Um, Ned married Cat so no Ned wouldn't have done what Robb did. Ned did what Robb should have done.

Again, Ned "fathered" Jon after getting married. Moreover, Ned's supposed action was considered shameful, so it was "dishonourable" according to his code; Robb was trying to do the morally right thing, as his father tried to do.

[Le Cygne]

They just showed Robb and Talisa gaping at each other then banging, certainly nothing they couldn't have shown with Jeyne, and Jeyne belonged to his world. Show Robb marrying her for the same reasons book Robb married her would have made sense. Nothing about Robb and Talisa made sense.

[Daske]

Nothing about Robb and Talisa made sense.

Two people fallng in love? Impossible!

A leader making a stupid decision? Unheard of!

A nurse where there are injured people? Preposterous!

[Le Cygne]

Oh, good, another Talisa debate. She came from another planet. Yes, it was all preposterous.

[The Idiots Lantern]

They just showed Robb and Talisa gaping at each other then banging, certainly nothing they couldn't have shown with Jeyne, and Jeyne belonged to his world. Show Robb marrying her for the same reasons book Robb married her would have made sense. Nothing about Robb and Talisa made sense.

What show were you watching? Talisa was introduced in episode 4 of season 2. She and Robb spent A WHOLE SEASON getting to know each other before they married. They met several times and had conversations about a wide variety of topics. They traveled together and apart. If she'd shown up, Robb immediately went "IMMA GONNA HIT DAT!....oops" and they married within the episode THAT is what I'd call "gaping at each other and then banging." .... that that is exactly what D&D would have had to put onscreen if they'd stuck to Jayne's story from the books.

Jayne could NOT do what Talisa did. You couldn't have Jayne out on battlefields tending wounds, you can't have her giving Robb the straight shit, king or no king. You couldn't have Robb explaining Westerosi titles to her, or her teaching him about life in the Free Cities, opening up their different worlds. None of that would have made any sense from Jayne.

[Le Cygne]

No, you'd have Jeyne doing things a young woman in Westeros would do.

[Daske]

Oh, good, another Talisa debate. She came from another planet. Yes, it was all preposterous.

Don't worry then, it's not a debate if only you are allowed to mention it.

[The Idiots Lantern]

No, you'd have Jeyne doing things a young woman in Westeros would do.

Like what?

[PatrickStormborn]

Like what?

Have you read the books at all? Because this is not something that should require explaining.

As Le Cygne has pointed out, Jeyne is a realistic character who fits completely with the world GRRM has built. Talisa doesn't, which is why she feels so out of place on the show (I remember there being a poster here who started reading after Talisa was introduced because she thought it was so incoherent with the rest of the series).

Jeyne tends Robb's wound and they get to know each other. Then they have sex and get married... But her mother is giving her abortifacient remedies to prevent pregnancy, and has secretly been plotting with Tywin Lannister to arrange Robb's downfall.

Seriously, how is Talisa more interesting than THAT? There is SO much there for the writers to work with, but instead they just went for a few tropes: love at first sight (literally the worst thing I've seen yet on this show is Robb looking across the battlefield, seeing Talisa, and being so drawn to her that he HELPS her with her nursing... it just completely defied belief), and commoner sasses the king... and then she got fridged, whilst Jeyne Westerling is still important after Robb's death.

[Lannister Hamster]

Have you read the books at all? Because this is not something that should require explaining.

As Le Cygne has pointed out, Jeyne is a realistic character who fits completely with the world GRRM has built. Talisa doesn't, which is why she feels so out of place on the show (I remember there being a poster here who started reading after Talisa was introduced because she thought it was so incoherent with the rest of the series).

Jeyne tends Robb's wound and they get to know each other. Then they have sex and get married... But her mother is giving her abortifacient remedies to prevent pregnancy, and has secretly been plotting with Tywin Lannister to arrange Robb's downfall.

Seriously, how is Talisa more interesting than THAT? There is SO much there for the writers to work with, but instead they just went for a few tropes: love at first sight (literally the worst thing I've seen yet on this show is Robb looking across the battlefield, seeing Talisa, and being so drawn to her that he HELPS her with her nursing... it just completely defied belief), and commoner sasses the king... and then she got fridged, whilst Jeyne Westerling is still important after Robb's death.

All of that is between the lines and I think needs a hell of a lot of explanation - there is also the possible love potion factor.

In the books all this is revealed over ACOK, ASOS and AFFC - I think it would be way too hard to give this information on tv in the deliciously subtle way it is included in the books. I think another of the reasons they changed it is that they wanted Robb to fall in love with someone and be actively complicit in his downfall rather than the victim of a plot.

[Dragonstoned]

The issue wasn't so much true love, which as has been pointed out exists in the world of the time and in the books (Tywin & Joanna etc.), more that Robb broke an oath for true love despite being warned of the consequences and knowing full well how selfish he was being which is so implausible.

literally the worst thing I've seen yet on this show is Robb looking across the battlefield, seeing Talisa, and being so drawn to her that he HELPS her with her nursing... it just completely defied belief

Jon's s2 storyline esp. Ygritte grinding on him instead of the Halfhand instilling in him that wildlings are not the enemy and their honour, lives mean nothing as long as the realm is safe was worse than this IMO.

[PatrickStormborn]

All of that is between the lines and I think needs a hell of a lot of explanation - there is also the possible love potion factor.

In the books all this is revealed over ACOK, ASOS and AFFC - I think it would be way too hard to give this information on tv in the deliciously subtle way it is included in the books. I think another of the reasons they changed it is that they wanted Robb to fall in love with someone and be actively complicit in his downfall rather than the victim of a plot.

Jeyne's mother was plotting with Tywin Lannister and gives Jeyne potions to prevent pregnancy - claiming they're to increase fertility. This is revealed shortly after the Red Wedding. I have no idea how that would be difficult to present.

Jon's s2 storyline esp. Ygritte grinding on him instead of the Halfhand instilling in him that wildlings are not the enemy and their honour, lives mean nothing as long as the realm is safe was worse than this IMO.

I think as a storyline that and Qarth were worse, but I think Robb finding love across a battlefield was the worst singular moment of the series so far.

[go joff go]

That would require them to cover a period long enough for them to have a plotline of why can't jeyne/talisa get pregnant, otherwise WTF does it matter if she is getting an abortifacent. And please tell how is JEyne mother who have to be introduced giving her an abortifascent. And how is she corresponding with Tywin. Its easy for you to say they could handle it easily, but never actually seen you give a television adaptable alternative to the criticisms you have. You always give the superficial remedies that either not feasible or just not good TV.

[The Idiots Lantern]

I think as a storyline that and Qarth were worse, but I think Robb finding love across a battlefield was the worst singular moment of the series so far.

He wasn't drawn to her because he was suddenly in love, in fact he wasn't drawn to HER, the person, at all. He was horrified at the dead and dying all around him, and he gravitated towards the group of people (she wasn't alone) who were caring for the injured. THAT is why he moved to help with the nursing; it wasn't because of Talisa, it was out of guilt that so many had been hurt and killed in his name. Which, by the way, is something Talisa doesn't hesitate to point out that he SHOULD feel bad for.

[PatrickStormborn]

That would require them to cover a period long enough for them to have a plotline of why can't jeyne/talisa get pregnant, otherwise WTF does it matter if she is getting an abortifacent. And please tell how is JEyne mother who have to be introduced giving her an abortifascent. And how is she corresponding with Tywin. Its easy for you to say they could handle it easily, but never actually seen you give a television adaptable alternative to the criticisms you have. You always give the superficial remedies that either not feasible or just not good TV.

Do you know what is "just not good TV"? The Robb/Talisa plotline. And it has nothing to do with changing her character... it's because the change from Jeyne to Talisa was an awful change (in contrast, Vargo to Locke was a good change... probably because D&D *had* to change him, rather than because they got carried away with their own limited imaginations, as was the case with Talisa).

Seriously, I don't understand what the problem is. GRRM laid it all out clearly in the books: Robb brings Jeyne back in ASoS, and she tells Cat that her mother is giving her fertility potions. Then in AFfC she tells Jaime the truth. But that could simply be included in the conversation between Tywin and Tyrion after the RW, or it could be left more subtle until next season (or even season 5), with Tywin just revealing that he has been corresponding with Sybell.

The only reason I brought up this is because it is far more interesting and adds more complexity than what D&D eventually decided to give us. I honestly have no idea how anyone could ever think Talisa was more interesting than Jeyne and Sybell.

He wasn't drawn to her because he was suddenly in love, in fact he wasn't drawn to HER, the person, at all. He was horrified at the dead and dying all around him, and he gravitated towards the group of people (she wasn't alone) who were caring for the injured. THAT is why he moved to help with the nursing; it wasn't because of Talisa, it was out of guilt that so many had been hurt and killed in his name. Which, by the way, is something Talisa doesn't hesitate to point out that he SHOULD feel bad for.

Eh, that isn't how it looks to me. He deliberately goes to help Talisa rather than any of the Silent Sisters, and then he continues to pursue her afterwards.

Oh yes, Talisa points out to him that he should feel bad for his war... But then she marries him and stops caring that he's harming innocents. :rolleyes: It's lazy characterisation.