Maybe Rhaegar was obsessed with Lyanna?

[Nami]

He started out as kind boy just as Aerys did

Selmy mentioned to Dany that even as a little kid Viserys demonstrated some messed up/weird behavior, one that she and Rhaegar didn't have.

[Pikachu101]

If the people helping them were from House Dayne, then they could still be loyal to and honour Ned's wish and not say anything about Jon and Lyanna.

I'm not really fond of the idea of anyone except Howland knowing about Jon. Ned couldn't stop him from seeing what was right in front of him, but I don't see why he would go and tell House Dayne; they have no loyalty to Ned and he just killed Arthur.

There are two known people who would be old enough to know what happened, and that's Allyria and Wylla,and so far, of both of them know, they've kept quiet.

I don't know why Ned would tell a maid, all she needs to do is tend to Jon for a while. He doesn't need to tell her the full story. Also considering Allyria was betrothed to Beric for five years I'm going to presume she's quite young, which means she would have been a small child when RR happened; she's hardly someone he would delve information with.

As for Wylla being the midwife I'm not really convinced :dunno:

Ned would've mentioned her and I don't know why Rhaegar would hire a simple servant instead of a Maester to tend to Lyanna

[sheofseidhr]

Knowing how the madness runs in the Targaryen family, maybe Rhaegar became obsessed with Lyanna Stark?

Maybe she went willingly (or maybe not) and then wanted to leave, because she found out about her family situation, Rhaegar didn't let her. And in a messed up way of dealing with everything, tried to please her, showering her with blue winter roses.

Anyone think it's unlikely for GRRM to go with the tragic love cliche?

I'd actually put my two cents in this. We all know that most people had high regard for Rhaegar but I don't know, it feels "off" somehow. I agree with those who said that Lyanna would have much more sense in her knowing what's happening to her family and Rhaegar kind of turned a bit mean to her in the end (not letting her out and stuff). I'm not sure what but something's just spooky about Rhaegar, or at least what is known about his personality. I do believe he had a hint of madness in him. But then again, if he and Lyanna were really in love I have no problem with that either. Maybe I just find Rhaegar really troubling.

[King of Winters]

I'm not really fond of the idea of anyone except Howland knowing about Jon. Ned couldn't stop him from seeing what was right in front of him, but I don't see why he would go and tell House Dayne; they have no loyalty to Ned and he just killed Arthur.

I don't know why Ned would tell a maid, all she needs to do is tend to Jon for a while. He doesn't need to tell her the full story. Also considering Allyria was betrothed to Beric for five years I'm going to presume she's quite young, which means she would have been a small child when RR happened; she's hardly someone he would delve information with.

As for Wylla being the midwife I'm not really convinced :dunno:

Ned would've mentioned her and I don't know why Rhaegar would hire a simple servant instead of a Maester to tend to Lyanna

I'm not saying Nee told them all, I'm saying the Daynes already knew and Rhaegar and Lyanna and Jon by the time Ned arrived at the Tower of Joy. Because Ser Arthur Dayne was there, I think he probably went to Starfall to get some help for theme and then for Wylla after Lyanna became pregnant, as I don't think the KG were able to help Lyanna giving birth to Jon.

I don't think Allyria's age is mentioned, but I thought she was the same age or older than Ashara

[sheofseidhr]

Am I the only one who thinks Rhaegar would make a pretty terrible king? He probably (or hopefully) wouldn't ever sink to Joffrey levels of wanton torture but I wouldn't want to be ruled by a man who thinks it's a good idea to kidnap a high lord's daughter who's engaged to another high lord and run off without making sure my severely mentally ill father/king doesn't end up bolloxing everything up.

Seriously. I'm willing to believe Rhaegar was a morally decent man with good intentions but he had the political acumen of a goddamn squirrel. Even if he ended up winning his rebellion and ended up king, I'm willing to bet his reign would have ran into trouble sooner or later -- if not with the Lyanna issue, than with something else. It's a little hard to rule when you begin your kingship by trampling over the rights/feelings/alliances of at least 3 noble families (Baratheons, Starks, Martells) and make people nervous about how you're going to screw them over later!

(Because seriously. Just running off with the daughter of a high lord whose engaged with to another high lord even though you're married to the daughter of a great house already? Diplomatic cluster-fuck any way you look at it. And if I were the high lords, I'd be mighty scared about what other things Rhaegar might think he could do to me and my family based on 'prophecy.' I wouldn't be surprised if he got bit by the Targaryen crazy genes sooner or later!)

:agree:

And the squirrel part is gold.

Rhaegar was quite mad, or was at least on his way there if he lived.

[Ygrain]

I'm not really fond of the idea of anyone except Howland knowing about Jon. Ned couldn't stop him from seeing what was right in front of him, but I don't see why he would go and tell House Dayne; they have no loyalty to Ned and he just killed Arthur.

Well, there's this at least one mysterious person at ToJ, so it's not like HR is the only aware that Lyanna had a baby, anyway, as I sure don't see The Ned killing off witnesses.

As for Wylla being the midwife I'm not really convinced :dunno:

Ned would've mentioned her and I don't know why Rhaegar would hire a simple servant instead of a Maester to tend to Lyanna

Perhaps he wouldn't trust that a maester wouldn't rat it out? And, who's to say there wasn't a maester? We don't know who was at ToJ, and there is no reason why Ned would have mentioned them as he mentions very little detail in general - heck, he doesn't even mention his tour to Starfall.

[Nami]

I think Wylla helped Lyanna give birth

So she's a target for information

[Pikachu101]

Perhaps he wouldn't trust that a maester wouldn't rat it out? And, who's to say there wasn't a maester? We don't know who was at ToJ, and there is no reason why Ned would have mentioned them as he mentions very little detail in general - heck, he doesn't even mention his tour to Starfall.

I think it's a bit far fetched to say there's more survivors and witnesses. One of these people would rat it out; why wouldn't they?

Until further evidence I'm going to stick with HR being the only survivor, I can't stand the idea of there being more witnesses.

[SaltpansResident]

Ok, let's be clear here: she was getting some good lovin', she wasn't locked up. TOJ (tower of JOY. Joy? really now how obvious is that) was their love nest.

For over a year? Seeing almost no one among her own class, and maybe very few servants? it seems wildly implausible. But maybe it's just that I've never had that hot Targaryen love :frown5:

Also, *cough* HE named it as far as we know, right?

[Where Boars Glow]

For over a year? Seeing almost no one among her own class, and maybe very few servants? it seems wildly implausible. But maybe it's just that I've never had that hot Targaryen love :frown5:

Also, *cough* HE named it as far as we know, right?

Here is my big issue with this always. If she is at the tower of Joy happy as a clam in bliss. Why on earth did she not get to send a Raven/Letter/ect to her family that was obviously quite worried about her?

[Ygrain]

I think it's a bit far fetched to say there's more survivors and witnesses. One of these people would rat it out; why wouldn't they?

Until further evidence I'm going to stick with HR being the only survivor, I can't stand the idea of there being more witnesses.

"They found him" is your further evidence of some other person(s) present; if you wish to ignore what's written in the text in black, your call.

[Natasi]

I was thinking about Lyanna and how Ned described her. I can't help but think maybe we are doing the same thing that Robert was accused of doing--remembering Lyanna not as she truly was. How conceivable would it be for her to care less about her family and more about running off into the sunset with Prince Charming?

Arya, for example, has been compared to Lyanna many times by other characters in both looks and personality. Arya thinks most of her family is dead or as good as but she chooses to move forward and change her circumstances. I think she knows that Sansa is alive and she knows Jon is at the Wall but she pursues her own destiny rather than try to reconnect with them. Could that be an indicator of Lyanna's thoughts as well? Of course she wouldn't want her family killed because of her carelessness. But could she move past that for some other end that she cares just as strongly for? Like a life with Rhaegar or some prophecy?

Again, in comparing Arya and Lyanna, Arya has always been more about Arya than anyone else. She loved her family but she was moved to do something else with her life than what her family expected of her--before and after the deaths of Ned, Robb, Cat, and "Bran and Rickon". I think this could guide us in imagining what drove Lyanna's actions between her and Rhaegar.

[Nami]

People try to put Lyanna into the innocent victim role because they want Rhaegar to be the asshole

Starks are precious here

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Ok, let's be clear here: she was getting some good lovin', she wasn't locked up. TOJ (tower of JOY. Joy? really now how obvious is that) was their love nest.

Tower of Joy could mean the joy of the prophecy of the 3 headed dragon coming into play

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

People try to put Lyanna into the innocent victim role because they want Rhaegar to be the asshole

Starks are precious here

No one puts her in an innocent role, she did a wrong thing by breaking her betrothal with Robert obviously.

[ellisg]

Every character other than Robert does seem to speak of Rhaegar as if the sun shone out of his backside, however I don't think Rhaegar was this almost perfect man everyone makes him out to be. Regardless of his feelings for Lyanna Rhaegar should have never named her Queen of Love and Beauty nor abducted her ( willingly or not it's irrelevant) as she was already betrothed to another. For me, those are not the actions of someone with a stable mind, surely he must have known the consequences of his actions would have been severe. People praise him as this great man but he was just as responsible for the rebellion as Aerys was, if not more so. How could a man so brilliant cast his wife to one side, steal another lords fiance all for the sake of fulfilling some stupid prophecy. Did the dragon really need 3 heads that badly? Was this 3 headed dragon really worth a war that caused thousands of deaths. Was Lyanna really worth causing a country to go to war with itself? Was she that beautiful? If he was capable of causing all this destruction within the the 7 kingdoms I'm sure he was more than capable of keeping Lyanna against her will, especially if he felt there was a threat against his precious prince that was promised.

[Nami]

Tower of Joy could mean the joy of the prophecy of the 3 headed dragon coming into play

Wow.

No one puts her in an innocent role, she did a wrong thing by breaking her betrothal with Robert obviously.

And yes a lot of people here do, you should read most posts.

[Mariagoner]

Every character other than Robert does seem to speak of Rhaegar as if the sun shone out of his backside, however I don't think Rhaegar was this almost perfect man everyone makes him out to be.

Honestly, I've always found that to be incredibly implausable. Even if you're someone who genuinely believes Rhaegar was a good man who was truly trying to do... well... something good (how many people seriously know about his prophecy? And surely even fewer believe it) by running off with a willing Lyanna, why are people so eager to forgive his short-sightedness and poor planning skills?

If I were Ned, I'd still be harboring plenty of anger or at least ambivalence about Rhaegar -- given that the man's actions contributed to the death of beloved family members in one way or another. (Especially Lyanna's, given that Rhaegar was the one to impregnate her in incredibly stressful situations -- perhaps that was another factor in her death in child-birth.) But instead, people like Ned and Barristan act as though Rhaegar's romping off with his hot little teenage prophecy-harborer while leaving King Crazy in charge was just an unfortunate oversight that anyone could have made.

Seriously, did they know and believe the prophecy? Did they figure Rhagear's hard-on for Lyanna was worth excusing the start of a civil war? (Which honestly, I think any reasonable person would believe possible given how volatile the political situation was, what an outrage Lyanna's 'kindnapping' would be to 3 major families, and how clinically nuts dear daddy scabby was.) Are they simply insanely forgiving people?

I just don't understand why no one but Robert seems to harbor a burning desire to plant their boot up Rhaegar's pretty ass for starting all the shit that went down without realizing just what he was doing. It's really psychologically bizarre to me!

Tower of Joy could mean the joy of the prophecy of the 3 headed dragon coming into play

Huh. I always thought it referred to Rhaegar's penis.

[Ygrain]

Here is my big issue with this always. If she is at the tower of Joy happy as a clam in bliss. Why on earth did she not get to send a Raven/Letter/ect to her family that was obviously quite worried about her?

For one, it is unknown if Rickard was informed or not, the only thing we know is the reaction of Brandon who was travelling and his source of information is unknown.

Also, we don't know where Lyanna was when she was supposedly abducted - it is estimated that she was already in the South, travelling for Brandon's wedding, but this hasn't been confirmed so far. Either way, If she was travelling with Rhaegar, Dayne and Whent in secrecy, she had neither a raven nor a messenger, so if there was any communication with Rickard, it had to happen prior. Similarly, ToJ was not on the raven network, therefore no messaging, either, unless someone travelled to Starfall to have a message sent. By this time, though, Brandon had already pulled his act and at this point, Lyanna's letter wouldn't have changed a thing because it was Aerys now whose actions determined the future.

[Mariagoner]

it was Aerys now whose actions determined the future.

Yes. And that is why Rhaegar's plans were all completely stupid. They depended on all of the parties Rhaegar had offended (Bartheons, Martells and Starks alike) to not make any public fuss over the 'abduction' (willing or not) of Lyanna and for King Crazy to not, er, act like a crazy homicidal maniac if said fuss was made. Even though acting like a crazy homicidal maniac intent on punishing all traitors to his rule made up 99% of King Crazy's character.

Seriously, even if Brandon had somehow been talked out of running into King's Landing while calling for Rhaegar's head, there's every reason to believe that Robert Baratheon or Oberyn Martell (those paragons of common-sense and reasoning!) would eventually blow up in a fury and challenge Rhaegar. Or that the high lords involved (Lord Stark and/or Doran) would demand that Prince Rhaegar be found and made to answer for his actions. And then what? King Crazy would sit back and calmly arbitrate whatever's going on? That is why you do not run off leaving a crazy man in charge!

The entire situation was a ticking time bomb and if Brandon didn't set King Crazy off, something else would have. Or do you expect all the Baratheons, Starks and Martells to be calm-headed in this totally unprecedented situation, where the crown tramples all over the rights of the high lords? Do you think the other high lords would be thrilled to realize that their wives and daughters might be abducted and their plans destroyed any minute by Targaryen princes who appear to be going mad at an early age? Were they all going to sit back, sip some tea, and hope Lyanna's in reasonable shape whenever Rhaegar's done ravaging her?