Pellert

Well, it’s a wrap. As a note, I have never read (or heard of..) the book, so show-watcher only. In general, loved this show immensely from ep 1-9. Final episode was also good, in one way, but at least personally for me, it lacked some depth and punch. To me, the whole undercurrent of the show is how big of a manipulator and puppetmaster Toranaga is, and then (and I think it’s mentioned by someone else earlier in the thread) the big reveal is a two-minute conversation about his masterplan… I kind of think I see what they are trying to do, and in some way it is quite clever (in the sense that simplicity sometimes can be quite forceful I guess), but at least for me personally it was not a home-run. I wouldn’t require a huge battle or long action-scenes, but at least spending more than 3-4% of the episode on it would be good (I also felt the turnaround to lady Ochiba was explained in a very superficial way, with some other parts also a bit underplayed..). I still rate it as a 5 out of 6 show without hesitating, but until the finale it was an undisputed 6/6 for me, so a bit of a let-down unfortunately. (but what do I know… )

This sounds like a f*cking stew of whatever you decide as your ingredients. That’s being said, Joe (‘s work) is absolutely amazing and based on previous work I definitely give him the “benefit of the doubt”. Reason for putting in it “ “ is that I maintain 110% trust that Joe knows fully that he is cooking a questionable stew, but is fully capable (and then some..) of turning into a delicious Michelin-worthy 10-course, with wine-pairing - so it’s not really a doubt at the end of the day..

Cool stuff, nice to hear that there are likeminded here I fully agree, there are for sure flaws, but the story, world building, characters, action etc is simply really good, and perfect (subjective..) classic fantasy with a modern twist and some uniqueness to not make it to “seen this, read that”. Ryan Cahill keeps a well updated writing progress on his webpage, latest projections is that fourth book is due probably early 2025! So much looking forward to it!

Thanks all, I’ll then definitely give it a go when I am done with 1.5 remaining Bakker books @Rhom - I also have on the agenda to ask more about Mark Lawrence, I think I read the Prince of Thorns some 10-15 years ago, but didn’t particularly liked and never continued. I can’t remember exactly why I didn’t like it anymore, so I have been considering to try it again - but that is for another thread at another point in the future

Can anyone pitch in if The Shattered Sea is worth a read? The First Law books (+ the standalones and Age of Madness) are one of my favourite reads, but I have so far been steering away from the Shattered Sea as it seems to be a bit YA. But planning my next read soon and thinking of giving it a go, but if it is very “young YA” I may be looking elsewhere, but if it’s something that also fits quiet well for “old YA” I would probably give it a go, a decent JA series is probably better than 99% of everything else..

Thanks! I knew of the mental illness to a certain degree, but not to the depth you described it here. Of course it is awful and I only wish Scott the best, regardless of what that is. The key point of my first point still stands though, but in view of your explanation it might come across as a bit harsh, so I’ll moderate it to that I then hope that at least the post is written “in honest and good faith at this point in time” that a release of ToE is upcoming in not too distant future.

Sorry in advance, I have not followed the development of Lynch’s writing updates/development in detail after RoT (I started reading some time after it was published). So barring that I may be naive, but if his post is anything else than a soft confirmation that the fourth book is to be confirmed in a very short time, or at the minimum that the writing is on track with a very firm timeline for completion and release, then I am honestly very disappointed and will loose faith in any author update in the future. Because to me this response is very straight forward and binary, either a) you have a genuine and real belief in releasing your book, or b) you are deliberately misguiding to play on the hunger for release to promote something else. Feel free to enlightened me/argue, please, but to me there is really no middle ground here. And for what it is worth, I am a huge fan of Lynch, and LoLL is one of my favourite books. Even if I think that 2&3 are not as great, to me the series as a whole stands out as one of the better ones in fantasy and I really look forward to the continuation and conclusion and I am 100% rooting for Lynch to finish (at his own speed).

A very fair and good point. I will try to rephrase to what I actually tried to say I didn’t necessarily meant they needed bring it _all the way_ back to the “seriousness” of LotR, but there should be more of the seriousness that is in the Hobbit, and less of the silliness that is in the Hobbit, and they could still manage to keep a significantly lighter overall tone of the Hobbit than LotR, or as a bare minimum the silliness should be “less silly” and the actions scenes “less unrealistic”. Because it is still in the “Hobbit serious” sequences where the Hobbit are best in my opinion, so more of those please, and significantly less of / tone down on; Bombur being to fat, Lecolas flying upside down from a bat laying down Orcs, Legolas running upwards on falling rocks like it’s a video game, master of Oldtowns moustache twirling, silly fighting scenes in the goblin tunnels, less of Alfrid dressing like a woman and acting overly silly, silly fighting scenes on floating barrels in the river (it didn’t work in the goblin tunnels and doesn’t work here), and for the love of god - less giant testicles in the face of the Goblin King! it may have been a honest attempt to recreate the tone of the book as more of a child story, but alas it didn’t work. And oh; I have seen a lot of praise on how RoP depicts dwarfs and this being on of the only/better parts of the show. Unfortunately I disagree, I just see silly dwarfs that I don’t really take serious, neither characters nor their motivations/problems. But I acknowledge I may be the outcast here.

My two cents, trying to keep it brief; The LOTR movies are epics (as movies, not as 100% faithful filmatization of the books, despite I steep increase in the frequency of flaws between FotR/TT and especially TT/RotK) I very much agree with (how I interpreted) Ran that FotR is a masterpiece, TT is very close and RotK despite its many flaws is still a very good movie of an epic scale very seldom seen. The Hobbit(s) on the other hand, are much more lacking. What bothered me the most (there is much..) is the childish attempt of humour and overly exaggerated actions scenes and goofy characters. If they had managed to keep the “seriousness” of the LOTR I could have forgiven much more. But despite all of its flaws, the movies still managed to bring me back into middle earth with the setting and really feeling I was back into the universe, and that I am forever grateful for (yes they score some free points such as same actors carrying the movies, Howard Shore etc, but end result is the same). Rings of Power on the other hand, lacks (almost) everything. There is no epic scenes, no new stars born or excellent performances (some are better than others, but no-one is really shining IMO), no-one bringing a beloved character to life and level he/she deserves, no depth, no (good) plots, no anything. Basically all the show managed was a few good landscape shots. Same as with the Hobbit, if they at least managed to bring me back into the Tolkien Universe, I could have forgiven much, but I have no feeling whatsoever that I am Middle Earth, I feel like I am in a low-budget adaption of a 6th tier fantasy series. Don’t want to bring on a WoT discussion, but I have heard people claiming the TV show to be “a new turning of the wheel” and on a good day I can be inclined to accept that reluctantly, but with RoP I can’t even do that. I know I am harsh, but unfortunately this is how I feel about RoP. and Sean Bean is the King of Kings, no-one shall ever disagree with that.

Excellent series I must say, however I didn’t find it to be up there with the biggest epics (and that is not expected either, just saying). And just in case you are “new” to Abraham, I can recommend you next read to be the Long Price quartet, it’s a bit different but still a very good series from Abraham.

I’m not sure if this want intended to me specifically or not (if not just disregard) but at least for me I have already heard lots of positive stuff about the (full) series and when I have listed my favourite series, Bakker came up many times as something to check out. Obviously, who knows what I will feel in a book’s time (or two, or three, or four) but at least I am very confident in trying it out and see where it takes me, so far so good at least *fingers crossed*

Thanks all. Let’s see how it progress, for now at least I am very very content with how it has started and outlook going forward, but it’s still early days @Fragile Bird - yup, I just decided not to dig into those threads in fear of spoilers, seeing that I am only 30% into book 1 out of 6..

I am about 30% into “The Darkness That Comes Before” by R Scott Bakker. So far I am extremely stoked, and I think these books are right up my alley in terms of what I like (in very broad terms relatively classic fantasy setting with swords, magic, globals wars, political plotting and twists/surprises), even though I could have easily lived with it being a bit less dark/grim, but it’s not a showstopper, it’s just not a necessity for me. but I have to admit, I am getting a bit confused struggling to follow all names, places/kingdoms, factions (/Schools), plots/plans and how they are connected and “who is where” and so on. Can someone pitch in if this is normal for this and you just have to get used to the world and writing style and then it will fall into place by itself (I would say this is normal for most books I read, it takes some time to really get familiar with the world, but I seem to find that I am a bit more confused than normal in this series), or is this series “extra confusion” and require above-normal focus when reading?

Thanks, wasn’t planning anything out of order, just doublechecking I had the right order

Sorry, I am a bit in a rush, hoping to get some quick input. I am thinking to start on R. Scott Bakker this holiday, is there a particular reading order or one series/book that should be read before another? My assumption is to just start with tPoN and move on to tAE (pending that I like them), correct?

Thom not coming back…? S1 is very forgettable, so I can’t say I remember exactly how they handled the fight/flight from Whitebridge (if that was where it happened in the show) but I cannot remember it as him dying in the show? There are lots of changes from the books (that I believe is undisputed and then one can always argue to death what works and not works), but cutting Thom would be a very major change that I find hard to find a good argument for (sure his arc could of course be changed for better or worse as much else, but not cutting him)

I don’t know how to post pictures (is it possible?) or link something from an IG post, but the WoT instagram have just now posted a picture behind the scenes pic of the Emondsfield Five, where Mat has only one eye. Don’t know what to make of that… Are they just scrapping the return to Tower of Ghenjei and wraps up that full arc in one visit..? Hmm..

Hmm.. Sounds like a pity (PS, have not read the books). For sure, it’s not the most epic fantasy show I’ve seen, but I quite enjoyed S1, as a “passable” fantasy-show, not great but far better than many other adaptions or fantasy works (Shannara, Legend of the Seeker, Dungeons and Dragons (even though it’s probably not a fair comparison), to mention some ). I have not gotten around to see S2 yet, so for someone that has not read the books, how is the ending of S2? Is it any point to watch it to have some sort of closure and conclusions of the plots/stories - or does it end with cliffhangers and a clear point to wrap everything up in S3?

Hum.. That’s.. less intriguing. Would by far preferred a “real” spin-off, but granted there are few gladiators to pick from.. I’ll still give it a go I guess; but with less expectations. However, simple as I am, if they manage to recreate the spirit from S1/GotA, I’ll be able to overlook the “backstory”.

This is interesting stuff! I am an huge fan of Spartacus, especially S1 and GotA, one of my all-time favourite series, even if I recognise its flaws (someone here labels it “good crap” or something, even if I wouldn’t go that far, I kind of get what it’s hinted at). Oneomaus is also one of my all-time favourite characters. I have not read much of a synopsis of plot or know if it exists, is that mentioned? I would be skeptical to a sequel where Ashur is supposed to be a protagonist? Is it supposed to be an alternate story of what would happen if Ashur did not die??

Honestly, i am very torn on this series, but first a few very high level “disclaimers” since it’s my first post in this thread; 1) I have just started the prologue of ToM on my third reread 2) I am not a book fanatic, despite have read the series several times, generally I wouldn’t expect the show to follow the books in every plot, and I am perfectly aware that bringing the series to the TV screen will require a heavy adaption, as a “faithful” (yes faithful can be a vague term, but in general terms..) is challenging 3) no matter the quality of my feelings to this series, I will for sure watch it until the end because of my “love” for the books series (yes one could always argue my love for a book should prevent me from watching a (in my view) bad adaption, but whatever) I have been dreaming of watching WoT on the screen for 20+ years since I fell in love with the series as my first intro to really epic and large scale fantasy, and even with a very pragmatic view on how faithful they can be to the books and at the same time produce something that is “mainstream attractive” I still feel disappointed… S1 I found to be straight out very very bad and low quality on mostly everything, but after reading several reviews here and elsewhere, I’ve decided to put most of that on teething problems / COVID / etc. S2 I found to be an hugh improvement and really enjoyed it from an entertainment POV. Unfortunately, even if I actually enjoy it and really look forward to S3 now, I feel it’s still so far away from its potential. I honestly feel that they spend so much time on unnecessary things where I see almost no pay-off at all, even if they had spend only a minimal effort on it. Some stuff is really nitpicking, but it kind off just “gets to me” when I see all the lost potential. Some high level thoughts; - biggest disappointment to me is Lan (not the actor, I think Henney is doing a good job with what he gets, but there is just a limit to how far an actor can go with a character). As I said, I just started the prologue of ToM, and Lan just joined up with Bulen on his way from Saldana to Tarwins Gap, and that sequence made me cry (honestly). Like, come on, this is Aan’allein, The Uncrowned King of Malkier, The King Without a Kingdom, he’s described as one of the deadliest men in all of Randland and a “hulking giant” - and this is what we get in the series? Without reading the books, I would rank him as a mid-tier in the show. That’s why his fight at the beach was the best moment for me so far in the show, because we finally saw him as kind of a bad ass (and no, I don’t find the scene logical or epic, I was just starved for some Lan action that is overshadowed everything. And no, I did not find the climax to justify the long wait, I would much rather exchange this scene for a more “spread out and stable” view of Lan as really deadly fighter). - Perrin just really sucks to me, both the actor and the character in the show unfortunately. - in social media reg. S1, they are trying to hype all the places where Padan Fain is present in various episodes, but very cleverly hidden. Why the fuck spend time and energy on this (both in SM and in the episodes)?! I couldn’t care less that you have spend much time on cleverly hiding a character in all episodes and I have to watch the show 10 times to pick up on it and then throw it in my face on Instagram, spend the energy on making the episodes better. - I really enjoyed Ewgene in s2, she really excelled there and her arc was good. - they do a good job with villains ((Isi/Lanf) in S2, but Valda in season 1?! Lol, it’s just one of the worst mustache-twirling villains I’ve ever seen, and basically every scene makes me itch with him, it’s so bad. - Warder bond plot in S1 is basically a joke to me. The only pay-off I can see is that it is a hint that Moiraine is not really stilled in S2 because it would affect Lan more, but it’s just really a waste of screen-time, ridiculous. - Battle of Tarwin Gap in S1 is just really a joke, covid or not. - the entire build-up with “who is the DR” is also just ridiculous to me (yes I have seen that some like it, so OK it’s my preference to a certain degree) but all in all I think it’s really a waste of screen time and energy, it could really been better spent on anything else. - I actually didn’t mind the beating Aviendha got to explain Ji’e’toh. For sure it’s really a sledgehammer approach, but it’s one of those thing I am fine with just “hammer it through and be done with it” and spend you energy elsewhere, I wish they could have done it on much other stuff. - unfortunately I don’t like Logan (so far, I love him in the books). To me he just seems to looney. In the books he is for sure not depicted as such a nutcase. But I guess the actor plays the character he’s given quite OK. - where are the epic scenes?! In tEotW and tGH there are lots of epic scenes, the ones they put in they butcher (Ingtar, can you hear me?!). I don’t really recall one scene in the show that I rate as really epic, but there are several in the books.. all in all, I just feel the writers are trying to be “too clever” by bringing in all these twists, reveals, mysteries and “connections” between the plots (warder plot vs Moraine/Lan as an example) that are to me almost useless and adds very little value, they would be far better of by cutting/simplifying a lot of this and instead using the energy and limited episode minutes to focus on building the characters; world and important plots. a bit positivity at the end - as I said I honestly found S2 to be a big improvement and I think that the entertainment value is quite high, I am just frustrated because they make so many easy mistakes and could have easily made it into an epic show. but for sure, as far as Amazon shows go, it’s miles and miles and miles and miles better than Rings of Power at least !

First at general recommendation; I created i thread here for a series called “Bound and the Brioken” you may check it out as a fantasy recommendation. Secondly, this is both a general question to forum users but also another fantasy recommendations; have you checked out Moontide Quartet (original 4 book series) and Sunsurge Quartet (4 book sequel series) by David Hair? I read them some time ago, haven’t found a mention of them in this forum. High level pros and cons: it is relatively standard fantasy, with magic system, magical creatures, swordfighting and a few battles. POVs are a mix, majority is relatively young POVs (but not all). There is good and there is bad characters that are relatively black/white, but there is no “major evil god” even though there are definitely villains, most of the plot evolves around humanity, with a very decent amount of political plotting. I found both series (but first one best) quite enjoyable and definitely highly entertaining with cool characters, plots and lots of action, there is not much slog in the books and stuff happens all the time. Decent world-building (even though it is highly inspired by the real world), it has quite some new and intriguing elements to it that I think works OK. My biggest criticism is that (for me personally) he takes the endings a bit too far and things just spin a bit out of control and become “too much” (I’d rather he kept it at a normal escalation curve that just blowing it of the roof for the ultimate showdowns), and that even if there is some new elements to the series, it’s not really very unique, and that plots may be somewhat repetitive and especially the second series has signs of a retcon just for the sake of writing a second series and not planned from the start. I would not recommend it as a literary work of the ages, but if you are look for a new fantasy series, it is definitely a “easy read” and very entertaining as long as you are not “too picky”. (Even if there is some criticism above, I just try to balance it a bit, I definitely found both series very entertaining and really enjoyed them, so I am definitelty recommending them, I burned through both series rather quickly ! if anyone else have read them, would like to hear what you think about them)

Thanks, there is so much good stuff in these series, so really look forward to it! Fingers crossed.. I understood she has been struggling in her personal life (without knowing the what’s and whys) and that is the reason for the hold-up, so really glad that she is back on track on writing as it (most likely) indicates that she is also back on a good place personally as well.

most important for me is the setting, worldbuilding and a splash of political plotting and twists. they of course differ a bit, but some examples of series/works I like it; aSoIaF, WoT, LoLL, Rothuss KC, Mistborn, Abrahams DaC/LP, Williams MST/LKoOA, Mistborn, Sword of Shadows, First Law ++, Black Company, and of course the Bound and Broken series lol ). As long as Bakker is remotely close to these type of series setting wise etc, I wouldnt mind it to be (really) grim.

Yeah all those have quite successful time jumps. At least Abercrombie, Long Price and Dagger and Coin - Scott Bakker i haven’t read yet (should I?). but I wouldn’t put it equal to a possible time jump after SoS though. I think the challenges (or opportunities) of a time jump after SoS has been sufficiently debated elsewhere in this forum, but both Abercrombie and Abraham sets up the books much more suitable for a timejump. then of course one could make the case that GRRM simply should have set up the story more suitable for timejumps himself if that was his plan, but for the sake of above this particular discussion (let’s not end up in a entirely more timejump discussion of aSoIaF post SoS), there is for sure a very majorn difference in writing BSC/H/RC/AoM after the ending of the FL trilogy, than it is to manage a time jump post SoS.. same for LP really, DaC I must admit I don’t remember how long the actual time that passes between those books?