GrimTuesday

3 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Respectfully Grim,

No. I don't agree. Hamas launched a surprise attack on civilians. 

If you want to say, in the past - this happened first. You'll go back millennia or two in this part of the world.

Today. Right now, this escalation started because of a surprise attack which killed a thousand people. 

When I was in school, I was attacked by another student. If today, I broke into his house and assaulted his wife and kid. Do you think I could use the excuse that 10 years ago he attacked me. 

What a terrible analogy. This isn't a matter of there was one bombing a decade ago, this is a sustained, calculated oppression of Palestinians by Israel.

A better analogy would be if when you were in school, you were attacked by a classmate who then trapped you in a cage and periodically deprived you of food (Remember that time that the official Israeli policy was to put the Palestinians "on a diet"?), left you with water that 96% of the time is undrinkable and any time you rattled the cage threw rocks at you. Oh, and they kicked your family out of their houses and moved their family members in. Now imagine the same person (or family) did to you for generations.

If we use this analogy, which is much more reminiscent of what has happened in Israel, I say it would still be unacceptable to go and slaughter their family, but at least I could understand why you did it even if I don't accept it as legitimate or excusable violence.

Just now, Hmmm said:

I lost my old account due to some password error a while back, and now only use this one to lurk the boards from time to time. But now I have to make an exception... what the actual fuck?

I fail to see what is wrong with this, I was asked how it is possible to unintentionally behead someone, and I explained that guns can in fact decapitate someone even if you're not intending to.

Beyond that, differentiating between a baby that was murdered in one way vs another is absolutely a method to invoke certain emotions. The important thing here is that babies, fucking babies were murdered and that should never happen whether it is when Hamas terrorists slaughter a family in their home with a gun, or a family that is killed when Israeli missiles level an apartment block in Gaza.

2 minutes ago, Northern Sword said:

Being skeptical of propaganda I get.  But this wasn't a battle ground. This was a sneak attack on civilians. Regardless of recent history. A choice was made to attack Israel in this manner.

A surprise attack targeting civilians at a music festival and mass killing of women and children's.  Then taking hostages on top of that while threatening to murder them.  I'm sick to my stomach thinking of 40 dead infants. 

Hamas have escalated this to a dangerous place. No matter whos propaganda you believe. 

Nothing you say here conflicts with what I said. Nowhere did I say this was acceptable or righteous or excusable, but we have to always bear in mind that the media has an incentive to play up the atrocities of the Palestinians and downplay those of the Israelis because of each side's relative proximity to power.

Hamas' escalation is the natural result of Israel's apartheid polices, even Israeli outlets like Haaretz, which would hardly be considered pro-Hamas, has laid the blame for this at the feet of Bibi and his right wing allies.

2 minutes ago, Job Snow said:

How do you unintentionally behead a baby? Other than that I trust Israeli sources only marginally more than Hamas, I will wait for the pictures.

There are plenty of instances of people being beheaded by gunfire, and I imagine it would be even easier with a baby considering depending on how old they are they can't even hold their heads up. In any case a dead baby is a dead baby, it's just a matter how it is spun to appeal to the emotions of those watching or reading from afar.

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Created including video by a professional PR firm.

I always am skeptical about infant murders until proven otherwise -- this was already deliberate propaganda in WWI.  But rapes, I tend to be far less skeptical about.    Because history.  Even Ukraine. Even without war, these happen, and they are happening all over, right now. 

I think that while rape is a known part of war, I think there is a context where we should be skeptical about the rape narrative here. There is a recent history of painting specifically Muslims as rapists and I think Israel and their mouth pieces understand that is a powerful piece of propaganda, especially in the West.

I'm sure that rapes have happened, they always happen when violence is involved, but the reports of it happening on a mass scale is very likely propaganda. It like how the images we are seeing of those who have been killed or taken captive are young and generally attractive, this is absolutely a purposeful media strategy.

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

I'm talking specifically about the issue of blocking investigations into atrocious crimes. They are coming off as great hypocrites here.

We just sat through over 2 decades of America and our allies committing war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq in the course of the War on Terror and seeing zero consequences for it. We have very little credibility here, not sure why anyone with even a cursory knowledge of American foreign policy would expect anything different.

1 minute ago, Ran said:

So it's worth pointing out that other journalists have come out and said they have confirmed some of the reporting.

That said, I too have always urged caution when it comes to reports of atrocities, particularly things like mass rapes, baby killings, etc. Some may remember vivid, horrifying stories of Iraqi soldiers entering Kuwaiti maternity wards and bayonetting babies... but it was all a passel of lies from Iraqi dissident groups that got circulated in the media.

There's no reason not to wait awhile before passing judgment on these things. It's clear that terrible things happened at Kfar Azar... but all the terrible things? Maybe, maybe not. We'll see.

 

Terrible things absolutely happened, the death of any civilian Israeli or Palestinian is terrible and it is an indisputable fact there are certainly civilians that were murdered in cold blood at Kfar Azar. The beheaded babies thing seems to come from IDF sources and the only journalist I have seen who has claimed to know it for a fact has admitted that her sources she used to verify her reporting was IDF soldiers who think it happened. No doubt there are dead babies, some might even have been beheaded, intentionally or unintentionally, but the media is jumping on the most sensationalist stories because it benefits them.

Something to consider as we hear the horrific reports in regards to what happened to Israeli citizens in Kfar Azar is that the Israeli military is known for straight up lying to the press. While I don't doubt that it was a massacre you shouldn't take anything that comes from the IDF at face value. Israel knows they are in a propaganda war (I use propaganda in a neutral way here, it is neither a good or bad thing) and beefing up the narrative of Hamas' brutality help soothe righteous outrage at Israel's criminal bombing of Gaza.

Remember what happened with Shireen Abu Akleh last year, remember the reports that were heard about mass rapes in the beginning of this crisis that were unsubstantiated and have been walked back due to the lack of evidence.

To be clear, it is entirely possible and I would say unsurprising if it were true, fucked up shit happens in situations like this and I believe that Hamas is capable of such inhumanity, just be aware that we are seeing what  two sides that have an interest in making the other side out to be monsters and the blood thirsty media that just wants to drive clicks and catch as many eyes as possible and knows that the more sensational, the better.

To all those shocked and appalled at America's disregard of International Law, clearly you're not familiar enough with American foreign policy. There is a law on the books called the American Service Members' Protection Act, or as is more informally known, The Hauge Invasion Act. This law states that if any American service member is brought up on charges before a international court that America is not part of, America will take steps up to and including military invasion to protect them from prosecution. Oh, it also includes NATO and certain non-NATO allies which includes.... you guessed it, Israel.

America has essentially exempted itself and whoever it decides to apply its protection to from being held accountable their crimes. International law is meaningless when you have the most powerful nation in the world using it as a cudgel against their enemies while disregarding it in their own actions. Israel will never be held accountable for their crimes while they visit collective punishment on the Palestinians.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Hamas considers pre-67 Israel occupied, so the idea that ending the blockade (which Egypt also maintains) and pulling out of the West Bank would prevent more of this is a total fantasy. Especially since the Second Intifada preceded Israel's pullout from Gaza, the Palestinian election of Hamas, Hamas' rise in Gaza, and the blockade. The simultaneous "Hamas doesn't represent Palestinians" and "This is a natural response to the occupation" being repeated by so many right now (whether here or social media) is contradictory bullshit. If this is just Hamas being Jew-hating assholes, it shouldn't be hard to condemn them and say this isn't legitimate or a natural consequence, just a genocidal group not representative of Palestinians or Gazans pulling a complete bullshit move.

Hamas not being representative of all Palestinians and saying that this is the natural response to the occupation are not contradictory in any way. When you live in a oppressed state for long enough, eventually there are those who will lash out violently. You say this is just Hamas being Jew hating assholes, but I ask you, why do you think they hate them? Is it because they're born to hate the Jews or is it because Israel, a self ascribed Jewish state, has committed acts of brutality on them for decades and left them traumatized and without hope?

As for ending the blockade not ending violence, that is just a way to continue the genocidal grind that the Israel is perpetrating. Peace has to start somewhere, and Israel has to be the one to make the first move because they are the only ones with power in this situation.

Separately, one thing that should be noted about the hostages, if you are taking hostages, you aren't taking them just to kill them, hostages are leverage to achieve your goals, and Israel, through their bombing campaign have signaled to Hamas that those hostages are worthless. Obviously I'm not white washing this, they didn't take them to play patty cake and snuggle, but looking at the political motivations of these actions gives us a better picture of what is actually happening rather than just buying into the misinformation and biases of the bulk of western media that seeks to obfuscate and defend Israel's crimes.

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Right, because the Palestinian side doesn't feel the exact same way. These conversations go nowhere until you accept both sides are assholes. 

Both sides are assholes, but there is only one side that actually has any power in this relationship. There is a reason that Israel is able to cut off food, fuel and electricity to Gaza, it's because they are a captive population. Does ending the occupation end the violence entirely for either side? Probably not, but there can never be peace while it continues.

Also once again, Hamas is in the position it is in due in no small part because Israel surreptitiously supported them in order to undermine the more left wing nationalist groups.

2 minutes ago, Kalnak the Magnificent said:

I think you're overestimating the opposition widespread killing and destruction in Gaza would have - but more importantly I think that will be an acceptable outcome to lose some support and political clout at some point internally. And honestly I don't think that those people opposing things are going to be all that outspoken any time soon.

You literally have people in the Knesset calling for a second Nakba, even the supposed moderates like Naftali Bennett are all for the continued suppression and further disenfranchisement of Palestinians and the continuation of the occupation. The Israeli government is completely controlled by those who would see every Palestinian expelled or eliminated and those who enable them for their own purposes.

While this is a tragedy on every level for everyone involved, history did not start on Saturday. It has been decades of humiliation and brutalization of Palestinians at that hands of the Israelis, it is no wonder that there are those within the Palestinians who feel like they have nothing left to live for and that at least this way they choose how they die. Driving a people to the brink will only lead to radicalization and violence and that is exactly what has gotten us to where we are today.

Beyond that, the reality is that while both sides here who have blood on their hands, the State of Israel created the conditions that allowed this to happen, not only through the never ending abuse they subject the Palestinians, but also by supporting Hamas in the first place. Israel picked their enemy, choosing to square off against Islamic extremists rather than secular, generally socialist minded Palestinian nationalists who were generally the dominant faction. Netanyahu himself is quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state (Time of Israel article).

Israel could end the vast majority of this conflict tomorrow by ending the occupation and system of apartheid that they are inflicting on Palestine and begin a process of truth and reconciliation to bring to justice those on both sides who have committed crimes that is necessary for a long lasting peace.

Well, decided not to do Starfinder (space combat ended up being a mind fuck for me, and it coupled with me  approaching DM burnout just killed my enthusiasm) and opted to go to 5E in my personal setting. Since I am getting a bit burnt out so I'm going a bit more simple this time,  so they are starting in a tavern and are going to get beat up by twigblights/nettleblights/vineblights because I don't like goblins and kobolds as the default low level monster.

On 1/24/2021 at 1:54 PM, Guy Kilmore said:

Also, separate note.  Inkarnate is a fun map making tool with a free option, that works well, and it's paid option is great, along with being super cheap.  I use it to design fantasy maps and whatnot all the time, so if you are looking for something like that, check it out.

Yes, Inkarnate is such a good way to do things, especially once you figure out how to upload textures that you can then place your assets over. I was having all sorts of trouble creating a town map I like until I created a procedural generated map that I just imported into Incarnate and placed roofs over where the buildings were. Here is the final product which I am actually half way proud of given the tools I had.

I've been playing for about a decade now, started with 4th edition, which I enjoyed well enough. I didn't get to play much when I was in college, which was when 5E came out, and by the time I moved back after graduation, my play group had just started dipping their toe into Pathfinder. Pathfinder being the massive blackhole of options that it is, we feel deeply into it and have kept playing 1st edition pathfinder to this day. I've moved on since then, but me and a few of the guys from my old group started playing via roll20, and then my brothers decided they wanted to start a family game. where me any one of my brother alternate week to week running Pathfinder and 5E campaigns. I just started DMing a Starfinder game (Pathfinder IN SPACE) that is going to start using the Against the Aeon Throne adventure path, but since that only goes up to level 6, I'm working on more content for when we get there.

An excelent episode to be sure, I'd say a 9, mostly because I feel that they made a mistake by not drawing the tornoment out, and using it to introduce characters who, while not of much importance in this book/seasons, are considerably more important in the coming books/seasons.

You killed my father prepare to die.