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The Sleeper

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  1. None whatsoever.

    Euron is going east. My expectation is that his ritual will cause a massive storm, in line with how sacrifices from Moqorro and Melissa dare caused favorable winds. Only Euron is using king's blood (his unborn child Falia Flowers is bearing). I believe that the priests he has tied to his prow and those of his followers will protect them from the storm, leaving the Redwyne fleet and the rest of the Ironborne in tatters. Then he moves on.

    Meanwhile, there many Ironborne nests which means the Hightowers and Redwynes will have trouble rooting them out with most of their fleets destroyed.

    The notion of Oldtown falling to Euron is unsubstantiated. Even if you discount he fact that we're told of his plans, none of his actions support long term engagements. 

  2. 26 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

    Well, I wouldn't be surprised if my pet theory was wrong. But one of its primary strengths is that it ties up a lot of stuff that is otherwise quite puzzling. So If it's wrong, we would still have to ask why the CotF sacrificed babies, why the Others also want human babies of certain bloodlines. How the man at the Black Gate was fused into this crazy hybrid giant tree thing.  What's the purpose of the Green Men, and lore about Garth Greenhand planting seed and impregnating human women, especially when it would be possible to interbreed with CotF for greenseer abilities. And so on and so forth.

     
     
     
     

    I don't think that there is a particular need to connect everything. For one thing magic is not exclusive to any particular faction or bloodline. They do have some things in common in that most kinds appear to require some sort of sacrifice.

    For example we have seen elemental control through blood sacrifices and specifically the winds. Considering that the hammer of the waters was on a continental scale the sacrifice would have proportionally greater in quality and quantity. 

    The how of the Black Gate is basically magic. There is no need for further explanation than that. Martin might provide further details as to the specifics, but that would essentially be flavor. I expect that he will provide further information on the nature of the weirwoods and that will in turn provide the context of the Black Gate.

    I agree that the skinchanging/greenseer abilities originated from the Children and that is because they only exist in Westeros and as far as we know it is the only place where humans coexisted with them. Garth is also meant to be a mythological figure. 

    We also have no notion if the Others require babies from a particular bloodline. 

    49 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

    It couldn't be Hodor, because Hodor walked through the Gate. I understand that Hodor's "hold the door" moment could well involve a link between past and present, which potentially creates some paradoxes, but the Black Gate giant is not stuck in time; he's been there waiting the whole time. GRRM would not be so sloppy with his paradoxes. His other time travel writing confirms this.

    I don't see the problem. Hodor experiencing two separate existences simultaneously would certainly account for his mental state. There are a number of other ways it could work.

     

    57 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

    Euron stood by the window, drinking from a silver cup. He wore the sable cloak he took from Blacktyde, his red leather eye patch, and nothing else. "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

     
    Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"
     
    Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

    That's some really close pairing with Bran's third eye being opened. Fall from the tower, dreaming about flying, maester playing it down. Speaking of eyes being opened, his sigil is an eye adorned by two crows.

    Yes, just so. I think Euron knows him too. 

     

    I could see it from a literary perspective. But from in story it looks a little thin. The lore surrounding him and his circumstances are completely different. His association is with the warlocks and the shade of the evening, which comes from trees that appear to be the equivalent but opposite of the weirwoods. Which granted places him in opposition to Bran but also points to his involvement with magic being recent. 

     

    40 minutes ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

    For what it's worth, both A Song for Lya and And Seven Times Never Kill Man mention the possibility of the passive-seeming symbiotes actually being more parasitic. The former mentions psy-lures, which we possibly see evidence of in Robb's dream of Lyanna; and the latter mentions Hrangan use of Githyanki soul-sucks and other "vampires of the mind" to control their enemies without their knowing it. It's quite possible that the pyramids worshipped as gods are actually some kind of Hrangan psy-tech used for nefarious purposes. 

    So while I agree that both stories largely depict the symbiotes as passive catalysts of psy-harmony among their hosts, I think at best it's left to be somewhat ambiguous.

    I do think the pyramids are a lot creepier and could well be seen as mind control devices. A Song for Lya is a lot more complicated than the mechanics of the organism, which serve as a catalyst for the thoughts and actions of the characters. Now that I think about it, the way it is woven is quite brilliant. 

    I see the weirwoods themed after the cycle of life and death in nature. You could say that the Children being more aware of their nature could have a more balanced relationship with them. You could see how human beings projecting their own desires and preconceptions could fuck things up. For instance imagine the hatreds of past generations living forever in weirwoods and influencing the current generation. Which is a theme in the books actually. There is plenty of room for ambiguity. 

  3. 1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

    Do you think they become sentient through blood sacrifice? Or it's more like blood serves as oil in their joints so that greenseers can control their movements as well as speak through them?

    Because the Weirwood at the Black Gate sure seemed like a living, sentient being. It had a real face, not a carved one. It spoke through its mouth, and it recognized speech. (It also had salt water flowing through it. Not sure if that will prove important, but it's at least a curious detail for Weirwoods).

    I agree that most of what we've seen in Bran's ADWD chapters makes me think of the Greeshka. But the Black Gate scene gives me pause, and makes me wonder if Weirwood trees themselves are like grotesque magical cordyceps fungus: planted inside living young with certain blood properties to get growing in the first place. Why young? Well, it is mentioned in TWOIAF that the CotF sacrificed their young in the legend of the hammer of the waters. Maybe the sacrifice is really to make new Weirwoods.

    I actually was just ruminating on this topic, which also involves White Walkers and Green Men:

    We don't know what those Weirwood saplings in the Whispers looked like from underground; perhaps we would see more of a humanoid or CotF type body visible, as the Weirwood has not yet reached its full size and shape. Something to consider.

    Also: there likely are skinchangers South of the Wall. It's not confirmed, but there are strong hints that Euron Greyjoy is a greenseer, and then by definition would be a skin changer. Perhaps not for nothing then, that rumors about the Farwynds being skinchangers is mentioned shortly before Euron makes his claim at the Kingsmoot. 

    I think that the Black Gate is the opposite of what you are suggesting. That someone was sacrificed to hold the door and that is what gave the weirwood its shape and function. And yes that it might be Hodor.

    It links to what Ygritte was saying that the Wall was built by blood as well as the deserters who were frozen in place. In short I think weirwood was the medium used to make an immortal sentry. And it is crying because it is not happy about the situation. 

    The lore about the Whispers is that Clarence Crabb's witch wife kept heads which she consulted. From what we have seen about the series this could be literally the case. Regardless, some sort of magic took place that created favorable conditions for a weirwood to sprout. 

    I don't believe that Euron is greeneer or anything like that. I think that his involvement with magic started when he captured the warlocks. After all, he was mentioned before in the series. He was always a dangerous prick, but there was no mention of him being weird.

    There is a known greenseer from the South. Bloodraven. Who was also notably a member of an old gods worshipping house. 

  4. I think the closest parallels is the parasite or symbiot of the Greeshka and the idols from "and seven times never kill a man". They both influenced behavior and were worshipped as gods. 

    They do seem to be feeding on corpses as evidenced by the bones in Bloodraven's Grove. I think blood is supposed to make them active. The only cases that we see sapling weirwoods is in the Whispers and the Nightfort. In the first case there tales of magic and the Nightfort does not further explanation.

    These things can of course occur naturally. There plenty of unattended weirwoods in the wild which survive just fine. Even if blood and corpses are necessary for their survival, plenty of creatures would live and die in their surroundings. 

    This could be how they influence behavior. They attract creatures to them and survive and grow on their life cycle. In the case of intelligent creatures they become part of their culture.

    I don't think they are sentient. Not in and of themselves and not in any manner a human would recognise. For one, Bloodraven describes them as trees and it was the Children and then humans who carved eyes in them. Any sentience they have in human terms is the result of the consciousnesses they absorb and what their worshippers project on them. The custom in the North of insisting family members being buried in their ancestral home could be so they can be absorbed by their tree and not be lost to future generations, much like the Greeshka did. 

    There are occasions where we see weirwood become animate. The most glaring example is the Black Gate. But there other occasions, such as the gate of the House of Black and White. This is I think where blood sacrifice comes in.

    The other hint about the weirwoods being active through sacrifice is the absence of skinchangers south of the Wall. The only difference that could explain this, is the active worship of weirwoods. This is also a hint of them having influence on their worshippers. Another thing to point out is that Ned, and presumably his predecessors, has been feeding the heart tree of Winterfell by cleaning his sword in the pool in front of it after executions. 

    Another such potential indication is the heart tree of Harrenhal. The extreme levels of violence could be inspired by the tree and more so by the God's eye.

    I don't think there is enough evidence to consider them a single collective. You could consider a single tree a collective of the people that have been buried under it. For instance the heart tree of Winterfell is a collective of all the Starks, which is why Bran connected to it rather than any of the trees above the cave. Individual groves could perhaps form a collective. I think the God's Eye is probably the one that could be considered a hive mind.

    I don't think it is a monolithic presence or a matter of benevolence or enmity, but rather a species that has formed a relationship with the sentient races which has its benefits and downsides. 

  5. 22 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

    Why haven't the slaves already rebelled ? Dany is far away in the dothraki sea . Do they really need her to be physical present at the battle to rebel ? By the time dany comes back to mereen the battle will be long over 

    For all we know they already have. 

     

    18 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

    Is it worth noting that Euron's lips are blue, not grey, due to his Shade of the Evening consumption?

    Euron is not tied to the prow of silence, Aeron is. 

     

    18 hours ago, Gilbert Green said:

    Maybe.  But "standing on the prow of a ship" evokes a very different image in my mind than "tied to the prow of a ship".

    That’s a fair point. It is close enough, though. After all, I doubt that a literal blue flower will blossom from the Wall. 

  6. 6 hours ago, Mad King Bolton said:

    True Euron doesn’t have a lot to offer aside from ships but every ruler needs their fleet. He’s just too suspect and creepy AF. Nobody would advise her to marry into that. As you’ve said, the Volanteen fleet seems most likely for transportation but will depend on what a left of it if the dragons get ring going on it along with Victarian. I think in the end, Vic will have defeated the Volanteens and taken what’s left of the ships so he will have some leverage for a deal. Especially haven come and aided Dany’s side despite being outnumbered.

    Victarion doesn't even plan to fight the Volantenes. They've got six times at the least his ships and probably each of them is largest than his largest vessel. Even a dragon can only do so much. They are not Balerion. 

    The Volantene fleet is not going to be defeated. They are crewed by slaves and carry slave soldiers who are also predominantly followers of R'hlor. The set up is for the fleet to rebel for Dany.

    As for Euron he is creepy to the readers. In world he is charming and charismatic. I have little speculation as to how or why Euron and Dany will marry other than the prophecy. 

  7. The other topic about Mirri Maz Duur made me realise that there are some common elements between the birth of the dragons. Namely, the sacrifices. There is Falia Flowers, standing in for Drogo, Euron's unborn child instead of Rhaego and a priest, Aeron in place of Mirri Maz Duur. The way he spreads the rest of the priests, one per ship among his closest allies, instead of having them all on the Silence, suggests that they are meant to protect the ships form the spell. Which in itself suggests that Mirri's sacrifice played a similar role. 

  8. 49 minutes ago, SeanF said:

    It was based upon his notes, and the answers he gave to questions, and has his approval. There are four separate entries which state MMD killed Rhaego.

    And her motivations are plain.  Revenge, and her desire to prevent Baby Hitler.

    The same could be said for the show. Ok, that's a cheap shot. 

    The app also says that Ned is Jon's father and Young Griff is Rhaegar's son. It is meant to be a compilation of what is written in the books from the perspective in the books. There are tons of stuff that Martin leaves deliberately ambiguous. 

    Furthermore, I doubt that Martin read and signed off on every single entry so there is room for interpretation from the person who actually wrote it.

    This is of course speculation. For all I know, Martin wrote those particular entries himself. In which case, touché. 

    In short, the app is a perfectly fine resource, but it doesn't override the actual books. 

    In this particular case, there are some things that makes me think that this is the interpretation of the person who wrote the app. For instance, it reads that Mirri offered to perform the ritual. That is not quite right. Dany practically begged her to do it. You could argue that she expected her to do that and that would be a solid argument if her behavior up to that moment didn't point to her being legit. Another thing that the app reads that is not quite like the book is that Mirri admits culpability. That is not actually true. What she says is that it was her god's will. 

    As to the actual story, there are also some other facts that cast shadows on this. If Mirri actually wanted Rhaego dead, she didn't have to do anything. As a newborn, with Drogo dead, he was basically doomed. The new khals would have killed him.

    Also, while bitter and resentful, Mirri is not suicidal. In the next chapter, she bargains for her life. You could throw in the welfare of her surviving enslaved compatriots. After this, Eoreh was gang raped and murdered. So, she had very strong motivation to succeed.

    There are also some other questions that need addressing. If it didn't matter if Dany was in the tent or not, why did Mirri sent her away when Dany insisted being there? Why did Rhaego, an apparently healthy foetus until that point, came to resemble a long dead dragon? And why did Dany felt heat from the dragon eggs after the ritual?

    In truth, at first my understanding was exactly like yours. But later all these things didn't add up for me. 

  9. 11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

    Mirri had reason to take revenge on Drogo.

    Killing Rhaego, OTOH, was unjustified revenge.  (And the App does state that she killed Rhaego out of revenge).

    Killing an infant on the basis of what it *might* do in the future is Tywin Lannister’s logic.

    That simply doesn't add up. She explicitly and in no uncertain terms told Dany to not go into the tent. 

  10. If it is a question of Targaryen ancestry, there are tons of people with it. The Martells, along with half the noble hoses of Dorne, the Plums, probably the Daynes. There is also Stannis, Shireen along with all surviving Robert's bastards, Aegon if he is actually a Blackfyre, even that jailor Jaime interviewed in Feast, he is probably descended from Elaena Targaryen. Then, there have been speculations of other houses that Targaryen brides married into. And last but not least is there is Aegon IV, along with any other Targaryen boy that got frisky. We could have dragonseeds coming out of the woodwork.

    That is pit trap for Dany. She is inclined to trust the person who would successfully claim a dragon. 

  11. I don't know how the horn works. I don't think Euron does either, he seemed kind of surprised the his man who blew it the first time died. And unless there are more glyphs inscribed that Moqorro didn't bother telling us about, the instruction manual kind of sucks. Victarion is sort of his canary in the mine for Euron, I think.

    He obviously has agents among the Iron Fleet. The dusky woman is one. It would be plausible for him to have a glass candle, through the Qartheen warlocks, so he could be monitoring the situation that way. We still have a lot of way to get there. But this prophecy seems like it's a plot point Martin is aiming for. There is separate foreshadowing for him riding a dragon in the Forsaken chapter, too. 

    Dany won't be marrying for ships. He doesn't have enough and want be taking them east in any case. That's what the Volantenes are for. He might be able to offer her sea power on the other hand, which she will need to get her people across. 

  12. Well, Drogo was dying, so him becoming a vegetable, but a stable one, is an improvement. 

    Ultimately, I see he whole deal as a fuck-up. Mirri did what she set out to do. The stallion just wasn't enough to fully revive Drogo, or maybe he had already suffered brain damage, which needed to be treated separately from his chest wound, but it comes down to the same thing. She was Dany's slave and did what was told.

    The ritual worked the same for Rhaego and the eggs as well. It took the life of the living unborn foetus and gave it to the dead unborn dragons. 

    The rest is Mirri being bitter after getting all the blame for doing as she was ordered, while the rest of the parties involved did the exact opposite of her instructions. She also, justifiably felt indignant at the notion that she should have been grateful to Dany. 

    The only thing that I can ascribe her being disingenuous about, is that she was probably aware that the stallion wasn't going to cut it, but couldn't bring herself to suggest a living human to be sacrificed instead, she is after all a healer. Dany would have done it in her desperation. Her son's life was on the line. And it would have been Mirri's fellow slaves that would have gotten the axe. 

  13. "Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . ." Clash of Kings

    It has been long speculated that the bolded phrase refers to a Greyjoy. The "Forsaken" chapter has provided some definite context. The corpse is Aeron and the ship is Silence, as he is tied at the prow of said ship, probably as some sort of sacrifice. Her silver was a gift by Drogo, her husband and there is the phrase "bride of fire" accompanying this set of prophecies. It looks like it is referring to Dany's spouses. 

    In short, this hints at Euron and Dany hooking up with Euron. From a less mystical perspective it also makes sense in a number of ways. Dangerous, assertive, bold, he is her type. She wouldn't be aware of his background in any detail. He could entice her with tales of Valyria, has mystical knowledge and artifacts and could potentially be a dragon rider, through the horn, making her predisposed to trust him. 

    It looks like there's going to be a wedding. 

  14. They didn't appear to have more than a perfunctory relationship. That said Robert's past image would and overall reputation as a mighty and charismatic warrior would appeal to Joffrey and furthermore it is the only rolemodel of a king he had. There is also the factor of reflected glory. The more he builds up Robert, the greater he looks by association. 

    As for Bran, his fall basically ruined his vacation. Joffrey was forced to tone down his attitude and removed him as the center of attention. In short, he was annoyed. Given his personality, Robert's words gave him the impetus and rationalisation to act on those feelings. He didn't need much reason or excuse to hurt or kill people. 

  15. 15 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

    It's possible that there will be a missed opportunity of reunion, due to lack of communication before reuniting for good. For example Arya could return to Westeros on a ship going for Gulltown only for Sansa to have moved to the North already, or for her to arrive while Sansa is here but with her identity still concealed and dismissing the tournament or news of a wedding or of either Harrold or Robert's death where she could have found Sansa to move directly to the Riverlands.

     

    5 minutes ago, Nevets said:

    Neither of them has any reason to go to where the other is located.  Sansa has no reason to go to Braavos at all, and the only reason for Arya to visit the Vale is if she thinks Sansa is there (with Baelish).  Which is certainty possible, either on her own, or accompanying Brienne, Harwin, Jaime, or whoever from the Riverlands.  Winterfell is another potential meeting place.  I anticipate a big get together there in the near future.

    I just mentioned their geographical proximity. This is the only current possibility of a meeting. Neither of them have any reason to go anywhere in the foreseeable future. As such speculation about their eventual meeting is premature at this stage. 

    If anything I don't think it will happen anytime soon. Thematically Arya is linked to the Riverlands. There is also some foreshadowing about her interacting with dragons and krakens. She is also learning the languages of Pentos and Lys. There are also many reasons for Braavos to become a place of interest in its own right. Arya is character whose future course is the hardest to predict. Though I think she will be involved with Dany and Euron. 

    That said I think there is a possibility for a meeting in the near future in Braavos. Baelish may soon find himself fleeing the Vale and Braavos is a likely refuge for him. 

  16. The one thing I could say right now is that it will be awkward. Both have spent a lot of time apart and have had profound experiences. 

    Other than that, it depends on the circumstances under which they meet and what has happened in between. 

    As it stands right now, in terms of location they are quite close. The route between Gulltown and Braavos is one of the shortest and most frequented across the Narrow Sea. These are the easiest places for these two to meet. Though currently there is no indication whether either of them with whom or where. 

  17. 11 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

    Being the guardian of such an individual is much better than being the father in law of Harry Lord of the Vale, a healthy adult. At least it has a date of expiration that is in best case scenario what 8 years into the future, whereas the other is immediate termination of the authority and priviliges you held as the guardian of the vale.

    Killing Robyn, at least in the near future, is the worst move Petyr can pull in the vale. Marrying Sansa to the heir ensures that should Robyn dies, which is quite possible and even expected considering his sickly nature and that the Winter has come, you still have some degree of connection to the ruler of Vale and may have a sway over him but it is nowhere near that as of the Lord Protector where you basically rule the vale yourself.

    I agree for the most part. What I wrote is reffering to the problems the positions bring him. He is simply does not have the clout to make good on the authority he should have in theory, in terms of prestige, military might and pedigree. Furthermore it is a contentious office which he acquired in dubious circumstances and has a tenuous claim to, which is why the Vale was on the brink of open revolt to deprive him of it as soon as he gained the position. His power lies in having a network of influence and making deals. 

    Of course, having the title is better than not having it. If nothing else, he could well be kicked out of the Vale entirely if Robert dies. And being the Lord Protector gives him a place and a reason for people to deal with him and helps him expand his influence. The reason he is taking such risks is precisely because his status in the Vale is precarious. 

    Essentially this is plan C. Plan A would have been a stable and manageable Lysa and B a healthy Robert whom he would have had the time to mold into his puppet, while ruling in his name. Sansa to Littlefinger is essentially Lysa 2.0.

  18. 1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

    I don't know. Petyr's ambitions for Alayne to marry Harry the heir are all for nought if Sweet Robin lives to a ripe old age, right? 

    It doesn't seem as much as an ambition as it is setting himself up for the future. Sweetrobin, as things stand now seems unlikely to grow up to a healthy individual much less an effective lord of the Vale. Being the guardian of such an individual is a liability, besides the fact that it is a position with an expiration date, though I don't believe that he cares that much for the title as it is not much good to him.

    Meanwhile, public displays of Sweetrobin's frailty and demeanor would only be ammunition to his rivals in regards to his suitability for the role of guardian and Lord Protector. However, it is a risky strategy, because should Robert die before he has secured his position in Harry's circle he is in danger of being marginalised.

    He needs to find a way to stay relevant. 

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