James Arryn

Stannis has already judged Robb guilty and sentenced him to death. Remember the leeches?

For a noble woman in ~ medieval times, having a wet nurse on hand when a pregnancy is nearing term would be pretty standard. It wouldn’t have had to be a mad scramble because Lyanna died when wetnurses were much more the norm even when the mother is fine. edit: among other issues, not having one available changes initial struggles with breast feeding…not uncommon…from an inconvenience or aesthetic choice into a matter of life and death.

Not that it would have mattered. It should be a matter of course that the countries that start wars and invade other countries don’t get to fall back on the whole ‘war is hell’ excuse for their actions in the war/hell they chose for others. Especially when it’s not an actually isolated incident, but closer to the norm for that party/state. The only reason there is the slightest confusion over this is that the reigning super-power in our real world has been doing the above since pretty much it became a nation. And the whole thing is made even more confusing because of Ukraine…that has raised the rather elementary allocation of blame on the invading party in the public consciousness, though unquieted consciences mostly aren’t bothered by comparisons by the convenient convention that any such comparisons are somehow helpful to Russia or harmful to Ukraine. It’s never said how this works, exactly…is the presumption that if the US is forced to endure public comparisons they will be less likely to oppose Putin? Wouldn’t it be unbelievably ironic if the reason was anything like that? Anyways, straying too far into current events, but basically no, it would not be ok for Aegon to get away with efficacy as a viable excuse for war crimes in a war he started in someone else’s land. And even if somehow that were arguable (it’s not) the invading party has lost any credibility to be the judge of whether/when that is true by being the one to start the war in the first place.

I kept having the wrong impression for years and it was 100% down to the artwork. Dunno why, but it translates to art so well.

Just admit you have a thing for Canadians.

Don’t buy the knives you see on tv. There are much, much better knives. Re; Valyrian steel, a couple points: 1) It was originally supposed to be ~ Damascus steel, but I think over time it’s been incrementally gaining ~ magical properties. 2) George gets asked who the best fighters ever were, and pretty much always says Jaime vs. Arthur Dayne. And when asked who would win, he always says that Dawn would make the difference. So he’s saying when two great fighters are evenly matched, Valyrian steel would be the decisive factor. But does that mean with BF Rhaegar automatically wins? No, because Barristan’s comment about fights between fairly comparable fighters can turn on the slightest misfortune still applies. A stone under your foot turns, an adjacent fight knocks you off balance at a crucial second, etc. So it’s just an edge. You’d be smarter to bet on Rhaegar, but only by a little more than you’d be wrong, so either way don’t bet big.

Wars are fought to do what Cersei was trying to do, think of it that way if it helps.

Yeah, part of the sadness is the knowledge that she will either be seriously ducked up for ~ life or it will lose realism. I don’t know how much therapy being a child assassin in a death cult requires, but I doubt Winterfell has the resources. That sounds flippant, but about this aspect of her life I am not. In some ways I didn’t realize how much I liked her until it hurt so much to watch this. And that was before I had daughters of my own…my recent reread took a break after book 1 so at this point that hasn’t really kicked in, but I’m straight up not looking forward to reading those chapters now that I’m able to look over at my own little girls. Tv/movie scenes that I used to be okay with have often become automatic ‘nope!’ for me when they start going down that path,..with Arya it’s gonna be much worse. Fuck.

Definitely not speaking for everyone, but as someone who was sexually assaulted, I can 100% say that, for me, bad as it was I’m very happy it wasn’t my murder. Please don’t interpret this as me saying this is how people/you should or even generally do feel about it, but for me personally it’s a very clear distinction. edit: I just realized I don’t know exactly why we’re discussing this…just doing a quick catch-up read…so if I have missed some important context I apologize.

Fairly recently learned that the first 18 chapters were submitted (and remained unchanged) alongside that regrettable outline, the one where Sansa is pretty clearly a villain from the Stark POV. So that’s how GRRM viewed her at least part way through book 1, though for him villain does not necessarily mean unsympathetic. I am now extremely interested in finding out exactly when* the garden grew in another direction, but meantime it’s imo not helping the argument to conclude that ONLY sexism could frame her book 1 actions as betrayal/villainous from the Stark pov. Cat I think actually suffers some from being ~ bright, perceptive and reasonable (outside Jon) while also being subject to bias and error. If her internal POV played like Cersei’s she would imo be less contentious. But because she is so reasonable and perceptive we are brought along, and when she proves fallible some feel betrayed. But yea, sexism is also at play. Cersei…eh, she’s sort of a cartoon when we get inside her head so I feel unqualified to assess how people react to her. Arya is more difficult for me. I find her arc overwhelmingly sad. I think I would find it equally sad if it was Bran…or, to be fair maybe not as much, but that’s because Bran was never amongst my favourite characters unlike Arya. But she’s a child soldier…sad enough…but more, a child assassin. To me JH was never admirable, always an assassin or, as I learned more, an active member of a death cult. Arya going even part way down that road…and even, sad lol, being too stab happy for said death cult…is nothing if not tragic. Are there kinds of growth in that arc? I guess, but imo we’re straying towards ‘slaves learned valuable skills!’ there. Will the skills she learns as a byproduct of being in the death cult be brought to bear against characters I dislike? Almost certainly. But I care about their fates less than I care about hers, mostly, so for me that doesn’t move the needle much. But I can’t swear I would feel exactly the same if Arya were Eyron or w/e. I mean I truly don’t think that was a factor, but unconsciousness gets its name for a reason, so who can be certain? edit: forgot Danny. To me she looms so large in the text that there are tons of motivations for perceiving her different ways, but certainly sexism is amongst them. *I realize that probably even George himself could not narrow this down to a single moment/chapter.

The decisive moment for Lannister hopes did not happen at the BW, but in a pavilion outside Storm’s End (or more accurately wherever he was when he decided that murdering his brother was the plan) with one man deciding that his getting to be the one who beats them is worth risking/reducing the ability to beat them itself. The BW is just further evidence that he was wrong. Among the kajillion issues, if the Lannisters are the enemy and this isn’t just about who gets power, why not Shadowbaby Tywin or Joff? Because beating the Lannisters was secondary. So crediting the guy who makes the decision to make that a secondary consideration as being ~ Freedom’s Last Hope is imo faulty in the extreme. I get that from Robb’s pov, which is what people are arguing here, the BW was definitely more bad news, but let’s not lose focus on whose decision it was that everything rested on the BW in the first place.

Right, I am saying…with the very huge caveat that I have no idea who this guy is or how credible he is supposed to be, nor indeed how qualified…that this seems like a big deal to me. I was just stating my own context, which involves ignorance and an internal contradiction between how I think and how I think I think.

Gotta be honest, I had not heard that they had recovered ‘non-human biological matter’ from crashed UFOs. I didn’t even know about this hearing until just now. Aside from semantics this does seem like a big deal unless the guy testifying is known to be a nutter/liar/fantasist. At the risk of revealing more ignorance, why is her question unreasonable? edit: should qualify this by stating I have little interest in UFO’s, beyond their confronting me with not being as open-minded as I think I am. Imo the logical conclusion in an ~ infinite universe is intelligent life of varying degrees, that’s my general belief, but every time I am presented with a purported example I pretty automatically assume it’s false.

Well they definitely don’t go to see Iger.

Well, as to whether or not Robert kills Cersei and the children, I think we can be reasonably certain he would have wanted to. In fact, this would have given him someone new to hate in the way he likes hating(violence) and probably rouse him from his drunken stupor for a while. People talk about war with Tywin like it’s a bad thing, but enraged Robert doesn’t give a shit about all the people who will die; he’s the classic Baratheon. The kind who goes to war over a broken betrothal. For him the war would be a major bonus. Some people have internalized that like it’s a reasonable, predictable response, but the books are filled to the brim with broken betrothals, and the only ones to openly war over it are Baratheons Lyonel and Robert. Both are normally jovial but violent back-slappers who turn black with rage and stoke that fire as much as possible when their pride is slighted…Storms? Fury? And the only other betrothal that makes a dent is with Walder Frey, where there are extenuating circs (neither Lyonel nor Robert went to war against the IT or lost sons as an explicit part of the betrothal) and…if Walder Frey is your ethical bar, you’re already in trouble. Most broken betrothals are no more than mere mentions, like Olenna mentioned hers. It’s definitely considered a slight, but only idiots go to war over slights (back to original Storm King model of how to completely overreact to a perceived slight…cutting off the messengers hands? Really? That’s a fucking Genghis Khan reference*, that’s…not a good look.) And as for the kids? Robert is already a disinterested father with occasional guilt about same; their being of no connection to him would be another godsend for his fragile self-esteem. What’s the lion equivalent to ‘dragon-spawn’? Whether he’d have been able to do it is another matter. That depends on so many factors, principally timing, but…maybe? Probably? Does Jaime find out first and Kingslayer II? Does Cersei take Ned’s advice and flee? Is the evidence presented actually enough? Hair colour might make sense to a reader who is brought along step by step, but it’s pretty flimsy in real life. And remember that one of the biggest steps both Stannis and Ned build that on is the certainty the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, which they didn’t. (Well not that anyone knows about, and Pycelle is a Tywin sycophant rather than actual Lannister). But it not being true might not matter either if Robert gets his blood up, which I think is fairly reliable and only questionable because of atrophy and the possibility that Robert’s pride would mean he’d rather disbelieve the ~ evidence rather than admit to being made an emasculated fool in the eyes of his society, no matter how much worse the lions look. There are slight hints he’d go this way, but imo a lot more that he wouldn’t. Having addressed that, and also joining the choir about the reasons the OP uses to justify Cersei’s actions not being her actual motivations in the text, I would again repeat my observation that we are increasingly seeing it proposed that a motivation that can be articulated is the same thing as a justification. Again, almost no one is the bad guy in their own book, excepting an extremely rare segment of people with diagnosable conditions, everyone has some kind of motivation for their actions, including the worst actors in history. And X being beneficial for a person does not, repeat, not serve as a justification for their actions unless we are getting rid of everything that we have developed as a species to get past the atavistic stage of development. In real life, having that as a motivation is seen as potential evidence that you are a criminal when the body turns up. Lastly, the rape. Post hoc ergo prompter hoc, mostly. Cersei could have murdered Robert a million times for that but always chose the power instead. Did it make killing him more satisfying for her? Probably, but it was not why she did it. That, too, was about power. And, again, wanting power is a real motivation, but not a real justification. If there stops being a difference, we all might as well follow the likes of Trump and Bojo. And while Jaime’d have been moved to action if he knew, most of Westeros including Tywin would barely raise an eyebrow, they would just see ‘unpleasant sex’ as part and parcel to dynastic marriage. (This is not to defend their mindsets either, just saying it would be very unlikely to move the needle much in terms of going to war over it or similar.) And it’s not like the rape shaped Cersei, or left only power in it’s wake; she threw a little girl down a well long before Robert even met her. Theirs was a marriage of ~ monsters, one the blind rage kind, the other the cold calculating kind. Both kinds are monsters specifically because they think that killing others, including children, is A-ok if it satisfies some want of theirs. Let’s not do that. * realize language may be confusing or assuming familiarity, the historical example is one of the very few times Temujin is portrayed by external sources as ~ justified (in type, not scale obviously), when his messenger is treated similarly, though to be fair the provocation there is even more understandable, ie ‘you should think about surrendering to me’ rather than ‘already married, thanks, how about my brother?’

Missing the grand old days of serfdom? Remember when the plantation owners…out of the pure goodness of their Christian hearts…would give the serfs a portion of the crop to eat/survive? And sometimes these ingrates would complain about the amount, or the flavour of blood, or whatever! Some thing never change, huh? Because almost no one in the system, except for the police, politicians, military, courts, bureaucrats, and press, ever take the side of Big Business. They probably feel a little safer, shudder a little less at every sound at night, knowing that people of vision like yourself have also got their back. Keep fighting the good fight!

Another kind of unknown period was when KKKers would go on raids across the border into Canada…usually Quebec, burning out or lynching Catholics, etc. edit: different from the Fenian raids where Americans would do all the same kinds of raiding/burning/killing, but with slightly different motivations, though still principally about Catholicism.

Yeah, and first, there are waaaaaaaay more of the former than the latter in the world, and even more disproportionately on the wrong side of the V. A normal person facing the state offering a plea deal is…don’t want to say threatened because I doubt it’s made explicit, and also because it is accurate…is given the strong impression that this offer is the result of their not being particularly important atm, but that if it’s rejected, the full gaze of the system will focus on them, and bring all their resources to bear. You, not rich defendant who likely first meets their public defender while actually in the dock or in the lineup waiting to appear, just like they are meeting their other 10-20 new clients today…you are accurately assessing your chances here as pretty close to nil regardless of your innocence. And you are facing your life’s destruction, one way or another, while the asst. prosecutor is just having another day at work. Once the state decides you are guilty, you will see how much that solidifies opinion against you…smoke, fire, all that…despite w/e people say about burden of proof in abstract. And the majesty of the court proceedings magnify that; surely all this would not be happening, all these people would not be coming to this place, etc. if they weren’t certain. That’s not really said out loud, but it’s in the back of many minds. Now good legal teams know this and will work to mitigate it, but you are lucky if your PDA remembers your name accurately, you sure aren’t getting any coaching. They just don’t have the time or energy, mostly. So yeah, you’ll take the deal. Especially if it’s keeping you out of prison or time served, yeah, because that is a very real difference in your life. It’s still destroyed, but you aren’t as worried about being raped or shanked or just forced to watch your life waste away in a closet. And all your innocence is doing now is driving you insane and potentially making parole impossible.

1) The Tullys were never kings, petty or otherwise. They were always subject to other petty kings. 2) The Tyrells, conversely, had at times run the entire Reach. They also reconquered Highgarden from a usurper and put another Gardener line back on the throne. But most vividly, the Tyrells/Reach are more or less George’s medieval France, and the repeated pattern in France was for an ancient ruling line to eventually see another line (Karlings/Carolingians with Merovingians, Robertian/Capet with Carolingians) establish more or less hereditary occupation of ~ stewards of the kingdom (Mayors, etc.) until eventually supplanting them on the throne itself in a relatively peaceful way.

Yeah, though to me it’s the other way it cuts that’s the worst, all the innocent people in prison because they had neither the resources nor experience to get justice. I’d rather several guilty parties go free before one innocent person is jailed or executed. The former is bad, the latter is one of the worst things a society can do.

Yeah, there maybe much more we don’t know about Jon Arryn but based on what we know he managed to combine honor and realpolitik in an unusual way. But I do think it was more than skin deep; virtually everyone who knew him thinks of him that way, as the realm’s wise father figure during his time as Hand. He is one of the few characters about whom opinion is almost uniform. Lysa’s the only exception, and there are many reasons that might not be the most objective take, but in addition there are many good reasons any young girl would resent being married to someone old enough to be their grandfather. On the other hand I would say Tywin is almost equally regarded with uniformity in terms of what he is like and what he does, it’s just that people have vastly differing opinions on the value or rightness of that. So in a way that’s a commonality, they both seem to have been more or less the same person all the time, with almost everyone. That’s not usually the case in the books, where different people see different sides of others, mostly. But in terms of the books, Jon Arryn’s kind of the ghost at the feast, his spectre haunts the stories…he is mentioned A LOT for someone we never see, his death starts everything off, just as his rebellion started that whole thing. He and Tywin could arguably be the two men who most shaped Westeros in the past 30 years or so. And in terms of the story, I always try and remember that Ned’s kids are much more like your stereotypical Arryn (or possibly Tully) than your typical Stark, and that’s mostly down to JA’s influence on Ned. What I do find interesting is that, so far as we know, Jon Arryn and Tywin Lannister never really spent any time together. They fought in the same war, but that was on and ~ archipelago, so they may never have set foot on the same island at the time. I wonder how they would think of one another. I’ll bet both have grudging respect for the other’s abilities but ~ scorn for one another in the areas they’re different.

More in the sense that even now, 250 years later the principal high-level legal debates about how to resolve current conflicts revolve around trying to figure out what these fuckers intended way back then.

To be clear, the original aspect, the greatest of the Intolerable Acts and the only one that prompted several FF’s to complain to George III directly (and write pamphlets about, a la Franklin, Adams, etc.) was the Quebec Act, specifically the toleration of Catholicism in the British Empire. I can’t explain the reasoning, but the conclusion was literally ‘allowing Catholics to be Catholic = tyranny’, not exaggerating. Heroes rarely survive scrutiny.

He had changed his mind. This is overlooked a lot or wrongly credited to Aemon or w/e, but contrary to this belief that Rhaegar died because he thought himself destined for other things, he changed his mind about his role. Not Aemon, or he’d have said it that way…by the the time of the Trident Rhaegar thought Aegon was the PTWP, not himself. And to come to that conclusion at a young age with virtually no one around to consult, operating from old scrolls with, so far as we know, exactly no one else even thinking about zombie apocalypses…that speaks of a very different kind of man than the one I think you’re suggesting.

Yeah, his tourney record is about as good as we ever read about except for volume. He didn’t participate too often, but when he did I think he always at least makes the finals, with a string of great fighters behind him. Robert and Rhaegar fought for an hour. If you are fighting someone for an hour with medieval weapons, unless one fighter isn’t trying, the only conclusion to draw is they are so incredibly even it will come down to ~ luck. There are factors that were to Robert’s advantage, mostly clear motivation and using the better weapon against the kind of armour they were wearing, but it was also on horseback which you’d think would be an advantage for Rhaegar. Then it’s in a river, so to me, as GRRM is a fan of medieval martial stuff, these are all GRRM trying as hard as he can to demonstrate parity. That Rhaegar managed to wound Robert adds to that. And then Barristan’s speech about a turned rock, etc. And being ~ even with young Robert without being an enraged giant means your skill level is pretty off the charts. Edit: And re: being pretty, brilliant, singer, great warrior et al might capture Lyanna’s heart but it will also get you a bunch of whatever the opposite of ‘fans’ is, amongst readers and in life.