Frey family reunion

My suspicion is that Darry may be serving as a type of southern proxy for Winterfell. A house that gets destroyed during the war and then taken over by foreign interests. It's one of the reasons that I think Lem Lemoncloak may be the surviving Darry bastard that was mentioned in ACOK. He may partly be a southern proxy for Jon Snow. George brings the last remaining Darry daughter home and sets up a potential conflict between her champion Strongboar and the Hound whom she believes killed her husband. Of course we know that the Hound is now being played by Lem Lemoncloak. If Lemoncloak is the last surviving son of Darry, albeit a bastard one, it then sets up a conflict with the last surviving daughter of Darry, even though she's now married into the Frey family. It maybe a preview of Jon Snow vs Sansa Stark over Winterfell, which the HBO show sort of teased but then never really developed.

As for Pia, it’s an interesting name. In Latin it means pious. It also refers to the membrane covering our brains. Which may account for the number of references to severed heads that seem to accompany Pia.

While GRRM has a passage where someone is sent to the “buttery” to get butter and cheese, a buttery is not a place where butter or dairy is stored. Or I suppose, it could be stored there, but that’s not technically the purpose. Buttery is an English term taken from the french word, boterie. Which in turn is derived the Latin, bota, which means casks. It’s basically a storeroom. Where the barrels are kept.

Yea, what possible motivation would HBO have to inject a romance between a Northern girl and a Targaryen (sort of) prince in this story?

What two Northern Lords want Jon Snow as King?

Jaime has sworn an oath to protect and serve Tommen, and it seems that at least as of now, Jaime is trying to change his reputation as an oathbreaker. So I can't see any "relevation" about Jon's parentage having too much of an affect for Jaime's story arc.

His ability to enter his consciousness into the weirnet would seem to give him a greater opportunity for immortality than permanently entering into a dragon.

I’ve reached a point where I’m more than happy to wait and watch these movies when they come out on the streaming platforms. I think a lot of people may be at that point as well.

Yea, on two occasions the entrance to the Mole’s Town brothel is likened to a privy: And we don’t meet many denizens of Mole Town, but two of the ones that we do meet have interesting parallels to the Lannisters. The first is Hareth: The blonde part is interesting. Now being big and strapping may disqualify him from being Tyrion’s offspring, but who knows how big Tyrion would have been if he had not suffered from dwarfism. But the more interesting part of Hareth is his name. Perhaps a play on Harith, a common Arabic name meaning And we have a parallel for a lion plowman when Lancel Lannister takes over House Darry. The other member is the whore, Zei. We’re not told much about her, only that she is very handy with the crossbow. Which is told to us in the same book where Tyrion uses a crossbow to kill his father. Not sure about her name. In Mandarin it means thief. But it is interesting how close it is to Shae.

I dunno, I think that there is something to this. The catspaw assassin was paid with a bag of silver. Sansa wore a silver necklace when she lied about what happened when Joffrey was bitten by Nymeria. Later this leads to Lady’s death. The silver pin that Bran wore, was what the wildlings keyed in on when they attempted to rob and kidnap him. Ned’s service as the King’s Hand was what got him killed, and it was symbolized with his silver badge: Ned’s guards all wore a silver hand brooch, and later they were all killed by the Lannisters, perhaps the silver hand brooch was what identified them to be killed. The blacksmith that broke Ice in two wore a silver necklace. Petyr Baelish loved his silver:

Yea, it was surprisingly bad.

Just to start off, this thread doesn’t deal with whether or not Lem Lemoncloak is Richard Lonmouth. Personally, I’m skeptical, but whether he is or isn’t doesn’t have to do with this particular theory. I’m more interested in Richard Lonmouth as he existed back in the time of Lyanna’s abduction and Robert’s rebellion, and whether the possible location of his House may give us a clue as to why Rhaegar chose the location of the tower of joy. So first things first, we know precious little about House Lonmouth other than it is located in the Stormlands, and it’s sigil is is Skulls and Kisses. We know of their sigil from the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Where one of the Knights, is presumably Rhaegar’s former squire, Ser Richard Lonmouth, referred to as the Knight of Skulls and Kisses. From semi-canon sources, we’re given more specifics about their sigil, it is a quartered field. We have multiple red kisses on a yellow background combined with skulls on a black background. Since House Lonmouth is never really referenced, then I think it’s a safe bet that House Lonmouth is probably a fairly minor House, and it’s also probably a vassal to one of the major Houses in the Stormlands. Now, when we go back to the days of the Dance of the Dragons, we’re introduced to another Lonmouth, Ser Joffrey Lonmouth. And interestingly enough, he is only referred to as the Knight of Kisses. So what happened to the Skulls? One possible answer is that back then the Lonmouths had not yet quartered their sigil with the skulls and black background, but instead their sigil was merely the repeating red lips on a yellow background. If that’s true, why did the Lonmouth’s later change their sigil to reflect the black background and the repeating skulls? GRRM has never put Lonmouth’s castle on any map of Westeros that we know of. And it’s never referred to in the story proper other than the mention of Rhaegar’s former squire Richard Lonmouth. But could their decision to add the skulls and black background possible give us a clue as to House Lonmouth’s location? There is only one other House that I know of that has a skull on a black background, and that’s the sigil of House Manwoody. The interesting thing about House Manwoody is that it is a Dornish House located in the Prince’s Pass. The same Pass that contains Rhaegar’s infamous tower of joy. Now, in the Dance, Dorne had not yet joined Westeros proper. But by the time of Richard Lonmouth, not only had Dorne joined Westeros, but it had even intermarried with House Targaryen twice. House Manwoody also seems to be a fairly major House in Dorne, and I suspect that it has more power and influence than perhaps Lonmouth does. So if Manwoody and Lonmouth entered into a marriage alliance, it may stand to reason that Lonmouth might agree to adopt Manwoody’s sigils into it’s own to reflect the bride’s greater House, and/or perhaps Dorne’s own beliefs involving female inheritance. If that is indeed why Lonmouth adopted the skulls on the black background, then it also stands to reason that they came into a marriage alliance because they had lands adjacent to each other. If so then I think we can surmise that if Lonmouth was a vassal to a greater House, then it was probably a vassal to House Caron, which is located just to the North of Prince’s Pass. And if you take a look at Lonmouth’s sigil without the black background and skulls, and compare it to House Caron’s sigil, you might notice some interesting similarities. Both have repeating symbols, (lips for Lonmouth, Nightingales for Caron) and both on yellow fields. And it might make sense for a vassal House to Caron to adopt a similarly styled sigil. If all of this is true, then it’s very possible that House Lonmouth exists somewhere between Nightsong and Kingsgrave, and it may very well be Richard Lonmouth who helped lead Rhaegar to choosing the location of the tower of joy.

That’s my point. GRRM is probably more interested in the symbolism of skulls and kisses than he is in the character Richard Lonmouth. (I think that GRRM is also making a bit of an homage to Geoffrey Monmouth and his History of the Kings of Britain with the name, something made even more explicit in F&B when he introduces us to Joffrey Lonmouth, and more on him later). Sure you see plenty of examples of a single colored cloak denoting a House, but only when that House’s sigil only has a single color in its field. The Houses that have a field of more than one color, usually has the cloak’s of its knights, nobles and soldiers reflect each of these colors. That’s why I brought up Hoster’s cloak, it contains both the blue and the red of House Tully’s field. House Lonmouth’s field isn’t just yellow, it’s yellow and black in equal measures. So if Lonmouth’s cloak was a holdover from him being a knight of Lonmouth, or a soldier of Lonmouth, then like their field it should be equal measures yellow and black. Using the color of Lem’s cloak doesn’t prove your point, because I don’t think Lem is a member of House Lonmouth. I think instead, the color of the cloak may have been chosen based on his nickname as opposed to the other way around. Because I don’t see any particular reason that he would change his name by joining the Brotherhood. I think he just is going by the nickname he’s always gone by. When he meets characters in the Riverlands who seem to know him from the past, they all refer to him as Lem. I think all the Wills and the Lem were both named after a Willem, probably someone of note of that region. Either way, it shows that this name was used apart from being derived from the color yellow. I think they’re all pastiches. Anguy the Archer and Tom O’Sevenstreams both have pieces of Robin Hood in their DNA. Thoros could be made up of both Friar Tuck and perhaps Will Scarlet as you say. I think Lem is a pastiche of Will Scarlet and perhaps Little John. But the idea of a stylized cloak being reflected in the character’s name is a direct homage to Will Scarlet. And if you want a more direct comparison, check out Will Scarlet as portrayed in the British series, Robin of Sherwood. Same basic origin story, and same basic temperament. And something that I could easily see being on GRRM’s radar. In basic parlance it does. When you say Most of Us, you are including yourself in the majority. When you say most of them, you are excluding yourself from the majority. But if you want to take a deep dive into the significance of House Lonmouth, and Ser Richard into the overall plot, let me suggest this rabbit hole. We’re told Sir Richard is the Knight of Skulls and Kisses. And their sigil reflects both skulls and kisses quartered in it. But back in the day of the Dance, we’re told about Joffrey Lonmouth, and he is only referred to as the Knight of Kisses, what happened to the Skulls? Is it possible that House Lonmouth only adopted the skulls later on, perhaps due to some sort of marriage alliance? If so, the only house that we know of, that has a skull on a black background is House Manwoody, which just happens to be the Castle that is situated in the Prince’s Pass, the location of the tower of joy. Is it possible that Lonmouth adopted the sigil after Dorne came into Westeros, and perhaps they married upwards, and took on a Manwoody bride. And in doing so, adopted the Manwoody symbols on their sigil? If this is true then I wonder if Lonwood is a vassal to House Caron, which is situated to to the North of the Pass, and perhaps this might explain why the tower of joy was chosen by Rhaegar. ETA: Look at the sigils of both Lonmouth and Caron. Now take away the skulls and black background of of Lonmouth, and just compare the sigils. Replace the Kisses with black Nightingales, and they have the same sigil.

Sorry missed this bit. If Lem was trying to exclude himself from “lowborn scum”, he would have said, most of them, excepting his lordship. By saying most of us, he’s including himself as lowborn scum.

Lonmouth has been mentioned once by Selmy. And once in the Worldbook. The question is why bring up the fact that there is a surviving Darry bastard at all? Why not simply say that the entire House has been wiped out? And then soon after that fact is mentioned (end of ACOK), we are introduced to Lem Lemoncloak (beginning of ASOS). Then in the next book, GRRM sets up a conflict with Lem (as the Hound) and Strongboar who pledges to the the last female Darry that he will kill the Hound (Lem) on her behalf. Oh and by the way GRRM also has Lem as the one who hangs Mariya Darry’s husband. So the reason that GRRM would want to create a surviving bastard of Darry would be so he could create further parallels between House Darry and Winterfell. Two Houses that were decimated during the war by Lannister or Lannister backed forces. Where the surviving maternal lines of both Houses were married off to Lannisters. A lot of this I think has to do with Rhaegar obsession disorder. The readers are overly consumed with every little tidbit about Rhaegar. Perhaps more obsessed than the author might actually be. So stuff with Darry, you may disregard. Yet for some reason the author wrote a whole lot about the current goings on in House Darry.

I think in the story proper we’re only told of two people with mismatched eyes, Tyrion and Euron. As for the peripheral sources, yes I guess. Even though other than Shiera I forgot who the other Targaryen was with mismatched eyes. But we have to keep in mind that GRRM has only done a deep dive into the members of House Targaryen. If he did a similar deep dive into another House, say Stark or Lannister, we might have found a Stark or Lannister way up the family tree that had a similar condition. To be fair, I think this has more to do with Tyrion being a dwarf. Tywin’s ego doesn’t allow him to fully take responsibility for the birth of someone with that condition. I’m not sure it has to do with Tywin actually thinking Joanna was unfaithful to him. The thing about Jon is that he looks like a Stark though and through. So physically there is no evidence of any Targaryen blood. As for Tyrion, I’m not sure there really is any evidence either of Targaryen blood. he doesn’t have traditional facial features of either Targaryens or Lannisters, which I assume has to do with his dwarfism? I think his hair color doesn’t help us, because it appears most of his hair matches that of his nephew, Tommen, and his one green eye is certainly consistent with his Lannister heritage. The only question is his black eye and patches of black hair. And I don’t know that this really leads us to Aerys.

Why is that odd? Grey comes in different shades from light grey to dark grey and everything in between. Maybe everyone with black eyes are purple. But since we’re never given a POV where Euron is seen without his eyepatch I guess we’ll just have to take Theon’s memory for it. (I think it’s Theon that says his other eye is black). Sure there is an explanation for why Rhaenys had black hair. She inherited it from her mother. There is an explanation for why Baelor Breakspear had dark hair, he inherited it from his Dornish mother. We just don’t know why a match between Aerys and Joanna, would result in a kid with partly black hair. Maybe it was from Black Betha peeking through many generations later. I dunno. Or maybe if Tywin was cucked it might not have been by Aerys. But regardless, my point is that there is nothing about Tyrion’s physical appearance that points to a Targaryen heritage. Surely we can come up with something more interesting than that. I thought the prevailing wisdom was that Rhaegar didn’t actually rape Layanna, that it was much more consensual. (At least as consensual as a young girl being lured away from her family could be). But regardless, I guess, if there was a sexual relationship between Aerys and Joanna it was probably a rape. At the very least it had to be done after his public comment to Joanna wondering about the current state of her breasts. It just seems odd that Aerys could have done it, especially in Lannisport without word getting back to Tywin. And if Tywin was aware of it, it seems unlikely that he would have gone back to being Aerys Hand, or that a few years later, he would be trying to talk Aerys into letting Rhaegar marry Cersei.

You have to keep in mind that Lymen’s father Raymun, was the youngest son with three older brothers all of whom died at the Battle of the Trident. So a son of the oldest son, could be significantly older than Lymen was. Nothing more than a cute theory that falls apart under sober analysis. Sort of like the Mance = Rhaegar, or Qhorin = Arthur Dayne. I think GRRM is more interested in the symbolism, kisses lead to death. It’s brought up in the Arya chapter where she gives a kiss to the skull faced man at the House of Black and White. At most he may be making a parallel between Lonmouth and Lem, like he’s made symbolic parallels between Rhaegar and Mance, or Arthur and Qhorin. Please, every Tom, Dick, and Harry in Westeros has a cloak. Even Hedge Knights: But if you want to be accurate, a Knight of Lonmouth wouldn’t have a yellow cloak. His cloak would be yellow and black. Their sigil is quartered with both yellow and black backgrounds. For example, the Tully sigil is on a field of blue and red, and the cloak that Hoster Tully is buried in is: Plus if that’s a clue leading us to Lonmouth, it seems that GRRM would have gone out of his way to actually have described Lonmouth’s sigil somewhere in one of the books. Yet he doesn’t. Sure seemed recent by the way he threw it in Brienne’s face. It seems unlikely that their death dated back to the Sack of King’s Landing, and he remained unmarried since. Especially since he’s part of a group that are all united in the fact that they have very recently lost love ones to the Lannisters. Not a group that lost loved ones during the Sack of King’s Landing. It’s much, much more likely that like the rest of the group he lost his wife and daughter due to the recent Lannister atrocities, almost all of which took place in the Riverlands. I’m not particularly sure what the App is basing that on. But if true it’s even more evidence, that Lem isn’t Rhaegar’s former squire, who may have been directly involved in Lyanna’s kidnapping. Someone of that note would have surely been noted by Eddard Stark. In addition, we know the troops that left with Beric Dondarrion: Nothing about Lonmouth, btw. But Darry men are specifically included. So presumably Lem would have been one of the Darry men who left with Beric. If the App is true. Lol: Surely you know by now that the version that singers give of events are not to be trusted. For Tom, it makes a better story that Lem is named after his cloak, than the mundane explanation that it’s merely the shortened version of his full name, Willem. In the Sworn Sword, Duncan has to train a group of peasants. In the group is two Wills, and a Lem. My guess is that all three were named after a Willem. Some went with Will and one went with Lem. And once again this points back to GRRM’s main inspiration behind the BWB. Robin Hood and his Merry Men. One of the merry men was Will Scarlet, known for his scarlet cloak. So we have Will short for William, and his assumed last name was Scarlet after his cloak. And then we have Lem, short for Willem and his assumed name Lemoncloak taken from his yellow cloak.

I’m not sure I understand the question. Lonmouth is Lonmouth. Unless you are asking where his “alias” is during the current story. If so, the question I have is why does Lonmouth have to appear during the current story? It’s not like he’s mentioned very much during the story as a whole. For all we know, Lonmouth is long dead. Or maybe we’ll run into him in the next book. I guess I can ask the same question of you. A Darry bastard who survived the razing of Darry, was mentioned in ACOK, if not Lem, then who is this Darry bastard? Personally, I think based on the circumstances, it’s much more likely that Lem would fit the bill of the missing Darry bastard then he would fit the bill of the Rhaegar’s former squire. All you really have to hang your hat on is some parallel symbolism. My problem with that, is GRRM has repeatedly paired symbolism with multiple characters throughout the book. He has paired characters using symbolism, North and South of the Wall, and characters from the present and the past. I’ve seen people theorize that Qhorin Halfhand is really Arthur Dayne, based on nothing but parallel symbolism between the two characters. While I think GRRM does intentionally creates these parallels, I don’t think it’s necessarily to imply that the characters are hidden aliases of each other. Here we have a character Lem, who associates himself with “lowborn scum” in contrast to how he sees Beric Dondarrion, who is highborn. That’s not consistent with Lem being Ser Richard Lonmouth, former squire to Rhaegar Targaryen. However, that could be consistent with a bastard child of one of the Darry brothers. Lem is in a group of people many of whom came together because they had recently lost loved ones to the marauders let loose on the Riverlands by the Lannisters. The loss on his daughter and wife, seems a recent wound, not a distant one, so I think it’s more probable that they were killed in the recent war in the Riverlands. Once again, this isn’t consistent with Ser Richard Lonmouth, but could be very consistent with someone who’s family was killed during the razing of Darry’s castle. I think it’s very likely that Lem’s name doesn’t come from the color of his cloak, despite Tom O Sevenstreams colorful claim, but is simply a shortened version of the name Willem. My guess is that he may have chosen a lemon yellow cloak to pair with his already formed nickname, as opposed to the other way around. And there also just happens to be a prominent Willem in the Darry family, whom an acknowledged son may have been named after. My suspicion is that GRRM has created a number of parallels between characters from the BWB and characters up North. I think he is creating a fire/ice duality. Beric/Bloodraven, Tom O Sevenstreams/Mance, maybe Thoros/Tormund (based on the similar derivations of Thor/Tor), Stoneheart/Coldhands. I think just maybe, Lem is an analog of Jon Snow, especially if Lem turns out to be the bastard of Darry. Two bastards about to come into conflict with the Lannister backed enemies who have taken over their family’s House. Jon is a warg a wolf/human hybrid, while Lem has taken on the guise of the Hound, a human with the “head” of a dog. Lem is sort of the resurrection of the former Hound who was killed by the sword, Oathkeeper. While Jon Snow, may be resurrected after being killed by Night’s Watch members who believed they were killing an oath breaker to the Night’s Watch.

While I agree with most of what you said, I would argue that an Aerys-Tywin-Joanna love triangle may be overstating it a bit. Outside of Rhaella’s possible paranoia with her Ladies, (which apparently was not limited to Joanna), and Aerys getting too handsy during the bedding ceremony, we don’t really have any evidence of a love triangle. In fact the one time they come face to face in 272, Aerys publicly humiliates Joanna. So it doesn’t appear that Joanna would have been terribly tempted by Aerys “charms” at this time. I suppose it’s possible that Aerys raped her, and she held her tongue, but it seems unlikely in my mind.

Sure there is variations in the darkness of blond hair. The more blonde, the closer to white. But that’s not just true for Targaryens, that’s true for anyone with blonde hair, including the Lannisters. Some Lannisters have golden hair, some have blonde hair bordering on white. Some Targaryens have gold in their hair, some have a lighter blonde merging on white, where the silver stands out. It’s not really proof that Tyrion is Targaryen though, since his hair color is more easily explained through his Lannister heritage. In fact this whole argument is a bit of a boot strapping. Tyrion has never been described as having his “evil eye” the typical Targaryen color. It’s never described as purple, or deep blue. It’s always, always described as black. People have theorized that Tyrion may be part Targaryen due to Tyrion and Joanna’s stormy relationship with Aerys, and Tyrion’s own obsession with dragons. As a result of that theory, some have theorized that Tyrion’s “black eye” is actually deep violet. But it’s only a theory, not something that has been established in the books. Now, his eye is using this theory as “evidence” that Tyrion has Targaryen ancestry, which is literally the definition of a boot strapping argument. And the whole discussion doesn’t really take into account Tyrion’s black hair mixed in. After all, none of Aerys’ descendants had black hair to our knowledge. So the issue is, where did Tyrion get his “black eye” and his black hair?

No, the Targaryens are famous for their gold-silver hair, not hair bleached white. In fact we don’t have to look far to see another Lannister with white blonde hair:

I think I already spelled that out in my initial post above. I think he could be the bastard cousin of Lord Darry that was referenced in the end of ACOK. The last male relative of the Darry line, presumably the son of one of Lord Darry’s older brothers before he died. I think he was one of the Darry soldiers that went to King’s Landing with Lord Darry, and his wife and daughter were killed when the Lannisters put Darry’s castle to the sword. I think GRRM may be creating a parallel scenario with House Darry and House Stark. Two houses that were destroyed and taken over by enemy forces. Strongboar’s promise to Lady Mariya Darry, the last daughter of House Darry and mother to the current lady of House Darry, to kill the outlaw with the Hound’s head, will put Lem in direct conflict with Mariya Darry. So we have a possible scenario with the last male of House Darry, albeit a bastard, in conflict with the last daughter of House Darry. A scenario which may end up playing out in the North if Jon comes into conflict with Sansa over Winterfell.

I think that’s probably the answer. She doesn’t receive any psychic visits from Quaithe until after that touch.

Schrödinger’ s cat