Roose The Weddingcrasher Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I think the relationship between Stannis and the North is best described in how the two sides take on the march to WF. The Northern mountain clans lost one person while Stannis' army lost hundreds and almost all of their animals. This leads me to two questions. The first being, why didn't Stannis try and learn from the mountain clans to get help and maybe save his army? The second being, why didn't the clans help him w/out being asked instead of getting days ahead of Stannis' army? I believe they both have a bit of contempt for each other and they are a means to an end vs an actual aliance that will last. I think this is rather medieval society being what it is. These are two quite different cultural and ethnic groups. It is a only due to a crude plot-device that they even share a language. It's only natural that they are separated, this doesn't have to do anything with some intrigue or traitorous plot. Though it makes it admirable that Stannis could unite them in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco_Dracul Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I think the Northmen have no desire to be rejoined with the Iron Throne and no want to send armies south again. I'm of the opinion that they are using him to weaken Roose and either take Roose down themselves if Stannis fails or kill Stannis afterward if he succeeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilrob6 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I think the Northmen have no desire to be rejoined with the Iron Throne and no want to send armies south again. I'm of the opinion that they are using him to weaken Roose and either take Roose down themselves if Stannis fails or kill Stannis afterward if he succeeds. I don't think Stannis needs them to go South again. If Justin Massey manages to contract sellswords Stannis, and after Stannis beats the Others (hypothetic situation), he will have a new army to go South with. The North just have to thank him for the help, bend the knee, accept him as their king and start rebuilding. Stannis, with his remaining army + sellswords) could try to win the riverlands next by restoring the Tully's, plenty of Houses there would support him against the Freys (Blackwood, Mallister..). Or invade the Iron Islands, support Asha's claim and marry her to Justin Massey. To get a fleet he'd probably pay Sallador Saan and try to make him join again, Or get the support of Aurane Waters and his ships. Or get some ships from Manderley. He could try to find allies in the Vale (Bronze Yohn Royce maybe or other Lord Declarants). Or he could try to invade the weakened Westerlands to get to the Lannisters gold mines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 I think this is rather medieval society being what it is. These are two quite different cultural and ethnic groups. It is a only due to a crude plot-device that they even share a language. It's only natural that they are separated, this doesn't have to do anything with some intrigue or traitorous plot. Though it makes it admirable that Stannis could unite them in the first place. But they aren't united, that's my point. Even though they have a common enemy there is an 'us' and 'them' mentality in both the Stannis camp and the Northern camp and neither are trying to remedy that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilrob6 Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 But they aren't united, that's my point. Even though they have a common enemy there is an 'us' and 'them' mentality in both the Stannis camp and the Northern camp and neither are trying to remedy that. That 'us and them' mentality would also have been there at any point when the North wasn't independant. I don't think it matters that much. Add Dornish or Iron Islanders and they would probably sit on their own tables as well. Even within Stannis army there were two camps, of King's men and Queen's men, with an 'us an them' mentality. Still they all supported the same cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The WolfSpider Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Right now would be a bad time, I think. When Robb did it he had 20 thousand troops that the north no longer has, and he had Jaime lannister hostages. Now? The biggest winter in living memory, they are short 20k men, low on food, exhausted from fighting, their Capitol is burned to the ground, and the others are coming. Right now would be a shit time to go independent.The winter won't last forever. It will eventually end. That's when the south will come for them. And all this ignores the others, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceluby Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 That 'us and them' mentality would also have been there at any point when the North wasn't independant. I don't think it matters that much. Add Dornish or Iron Islanders and they would probably sit on their own tables as well. Even within Stannis army there were two camps, of King's men and Queen's men, with an 'us an them' mentality. Still they all supported the same cause. The difference being that there aren't hundreds of King's men dying while the Queen's men flourished. This isn't about whose tables they sit at (though I do believe that the North rarely treats w/ Stannis IIRC), it's about facing the elements where one side is fine, the other is getting demolished, and their help isn't be asked for or given freely. I think it speaks volumes as to how tumultuous the relationship is. I could be wrong, but I think the parallels are there on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The WolfSpider Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Couldn't disagree more. The northmen.handle winter just fine. Let the southron fools come north with supplies and they'll die like Napoleon's army in Russia. I think the northern will even fare better against the white Walkers who could end up killing their enemies for them. Just had a thought....what if the new and improved Cat says F it and names Stannis as Robb's heir. Or robb himself did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iona Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Stannis has made it very clear he wants the whole 7 kingdoms, and is not willing to share the pie. He even declared Robb usurper. That's not the best possible starting point for fruitful co-operation with the Northmen... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Victarion Viserion Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 The way I see it Stannis (chump👎) knows who the real enemy is now. My hope is he saves winterfell (destroyed) unifies the north by bringing them to the wall. Where they find a good as new superbadass Jon Stark! Due to Robb's letter/will that finally showed up. Jon Stark stabs mel/Nissa nissa becomes AA. Stannis grinds his teeth and bends the knee to the new King in the North and the Prince that was Promised! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blutraven Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 The way I see it Stannis (chump) knows who the real enemy is now. My hope is he saves winterfell (destroyed) unifies the north by bringing them to the wall. Where they find a good as new superbadass Jon Stark! Due to Robb's letter/will that finally showed up. Jon Stark stabs mel/Nissa nissa becomes AA. Stannis grinds his teeth and bends the knee to the new King in the North and the Prince that was Promised! And they all lived happily ever after, my sweet summer child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Victarion Viserion Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 And they all lived happily ever after, my sweet summer child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion Victarion Viserion Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Oh yeah I forgot that Dany showed up and was all like, Yo nephew, I love that white wolf of yours but I got this white dragon, here ya go kiddo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 And if they fight for Stannis and lose, the south will come for them all the same. I'm not saying I think it's particularly smart for the North to be fighting the South at all -- given the imminent zombie invasion, it isn't -- but at the moment, there is no reason to fight for Stannis over one of their own. The others are irrelevant for the time being only Jon is doing anything to prepare against the invasion. The northern lords don't know/believe anything in regards to an invasion by the others and Stannis knows but is planning to gain the north's support to go south for the throne not use those men to man the wall. In anycase if the others get past the wall it won't matter whether the north is independent or not the south won't come to their aid unless the realm is united under Stannis and that's highly unlikely and even if he managed it, it would cost the realm a lot of fighting men in the meantime. Yes winter will come to an end but not for a good many years and we have no way of knowing what condition the realm will be in at this time so it's worth the risk particularly if the south continues it's current level of infighting. Supporting Stannis gets them nothing over a Stark king as the only men supporting Stannis would be the northmen so they have nothing to gain from the association. Stannis has proven to be the North's best rallying point, thus far. The Mountain Clans and Mormonts think enough of him to follow him to Winterfell, White Harbor will declare for him once baby RIckon is brought back from Skagos, and I imagine that even the idiot Greatjon will form a grudging respect for the man if he were to kick the Bolton's out of Winterfell, as well as dish the Frey's a bloody nose. If the North didn't need Stannis, then why is he the one leading the assualt? Why have they rallied to his banners? Why didn't they just do it themselves? Cos' while the North licked their wounds, Stannis went out and got shit done. I think the Northmen have no desire to be rejoined with the Iron Throne and no want to send armies south again. I'm of the opinion that they are using him to weaken Roose and either take Roose down themselves if Stannis fails or kill Stannis afterward if he succeeds. You have seen how much these guys love "The Ned" haven't you? You think they'd shit all over his honour by turning against the one man that managed to rally his supporters together, to bring justice the people that betrayed and killed his family, save his daughter (hey, they don't know Arya is a fake, and neither did Stannis) and put a Stark back into Winterfell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco_Dracul Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 You have seen how much these guys love "The Ned" haven't you? You think they'd shit all over his honour by turning against the one man that managed to rally his supporters together, to bring justice the people that betrayed and killed his family, save his daughter (hey, they don't know Arya is a fake, and neither did Stannis) and put a Stark back into Winterfell? Do you think they would willingly subject themselves to the throne that unjustly executed 2 lords of Winterfell in the last 20 years? Stannis only offers them anything until they have a Stark. Once they have a Stark, they won't rally around Stannis anymore. Joining with the South has gained them nothing and in the very recent past, cost them much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stark Thenextwolf Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Right now would be a bad time, I think. When Robb did it he had 20 thousand troops that the north no longer has, and he had Jaime lannister hostages. Now? The biggest winter in living memory, they are short 20k men, low on food, exhausted from fighting, their Capitol is burned to the ground, and the others are coming. Right now would be a shit time to go independent. The winter won't last forever. It will eventually end. That's when the south will come for them. And all this ignores the others, anyway.The time for screaming freedom brave heart style has passed. That time passed at duskendale when the northern infantry was smashed. Now is the time to work together with the south. The lone wolf dies but the pack survives. The north still has no reason to really listen to the south becuase no one in the South now will halp them. If the others do come no one in the south will lift a finger untill the white walkers reach the neck or so... At least thats my guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I think the relationship between Stannis and the North is best described in how the two sides take on the march to WF. The Northern mountain clans lost one person while Stannis' army lost hundreds and almost all of their animals. This leads me to two questions. The first being, why didn't Stannis try and learn from the mountain clans to get help and maybe save his army? The second being, why didn't the clans help him w/out being asked instead of getting days ahead of Stannis' army? I believe they both have a bit of contempt for each other and they are a means to an end vs an actual aliance that will last. The devil is in the details. The Southrons would need a Northman watching over their shoulder at something as simple as taking a piss. Or walking. You can easily catch a cold from which you won't recover if you don't know how to do these things cold-proof. By the way, Stannis lost "only" sixty-something men and several hundreds/almost all of the horses. The mountain clans lost not a person, but a single mule - which is assumed to be stolen by another clan. Stannis has proven to be the North's best rallying point, thus far. The Mountain Clans and Mormonts think enough of him to follow him to Winterfell, White Harbor will declare for him once baby RIckon is brought back from Skagos, and I imagine that even the idiot Greatjon will form a grudging respect for the man if he were to kick the Bolton's out of Winterfell, as well as dish the Frey's a bloody nose. If the North didn't need Stannis, then why is he the one leading the assualt? Why have they rallied to his banners? Why didn't they just do it themselves? Cos' while the North licked their wounds, Stannis went out and got shit done. You have seen how much these guys love "The Ned" haven't you? You think they'd shit all over his honour by turning against the one man that managed to rally his supporters together, to bring justice the people that betrayed and killed his family, save his daughter (hey, they don't know Arya is a fake, and neither did Stannis) and put a Stark back into Winterfell? The Mountain Clans and Mormonts think enough of Jon Snow to follow the guy he sent to Deepwood Motte. Wyman Manderly (the guy currently sacrificing himself) vowed to follow Stannis, if Davos brings him back his liege lord (Bran, not Rickon). And he played the wordgame before. The North keeps its options open. It will be up to the Stark in Winterfell to decide whether he'd be Lord Paramount or King in the North. The Northmen can do both without breaking any promises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gannicus Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 If Stannis free's the north from the Ironborn, displaces the Bolton's at wardens of the north, and re-establishes a Stark in Winterfell I think it's safe to say that Stark would bend the knee to Stannis Baratheon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darksnider05 Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 If Stannis free's the north from the Ironborn, displaces the Bolton's at wardens of the north, and re-establishes a Stark in Winterfell I think it's safe to say that Stark would bend the knee to Stannis Baratheon. No it's not at best which ever Stark gets Winterfell might grant Stannis the Dreadfort and Boltons old lands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am of the Night Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 You have seen how much these guys love "The Ned" haven't you? You think they'd shit all over his honour by turning against the one man that managed to rally his supporters together, to bring justice the people that betrayed and killed his family, save his daughter (hey, they don't know Arya is a fake, and neither did Stannis) and put a Stark back into Winterfell?You mean the same guy who fled to Dragonstone rather than stay in KL and warn Ned of all the shannanigans going on?By the way, what makes you think Northmen are as honorable as Ned? Roose's betrayal, Frey pies, Umbers playing both sides, ect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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