"Until Sansa's safely widowed": Littlefinger's Annulment Dilemma

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Funny thing is, that Harrenhall, strictly speaking and from an anti-Lannister perspective, now should belong to the Tullys (Edmure), since Hoster`s wife was a Whent, who are extinct now.

Or Sansa. With Edmure a prisoner and Bran and Rickon presumed dead, she is next in line. Or just the castle without the Lord Paramountship, since Edmure would already have Riverrun.

I always wondered how Tywin annulled the marriage to Tysha

it's said several times that a marriage can't be annulled once consummated and we know Tyrion and Tysha did consummate so.....?

is Tywin that powerful that he can overrule the laws of the faith ?

if not then Tyrions marriage to sansa is illegal anyway.

Tywin hushed it up. At the time, he was powerful enough to do so and no one would bat an eyelash. But it wasn't a legal annulment and the High Sparrow is different than the old Most Devout - he cares about laws of the Faith.

The only audience he needs to convince the marriage is annulled is the Vale. The Harry marriage is for the purpose is to consolidate the Vale forces behind a conquest of the North. And they'll be a receptive audience, no love for the Lannisters there, pulling out some Septon in the Vale and convincing him to annul the marriage would be good enough for the Vale, that KL wouldn't accept it doesn't matter as when LF reveals Sansa he becomes an enemy of the IT anyway.

It's not going to matter though, regardless of who blesses it Tyrion isn't going to be considering the marriage annulled when he comes back and claims his wife, the marriage is set for the long term.

Wouldn't be good enough. He needs Baelor's in KL, either the High Septon himself or a Council of Faith.

[direwienerdog]

Nah, I have to agree with Newstar - far too many poster are expecting an annulment which will more than likely never happen. Whether Joff is declared a bastard or not, Sansa is now married to Tyrion. That won't go away because no one from her family gave her away.

I do believe they will be married at the end of the story however, I'm not sure if both will outlive the books. In any case, I do believe it will be death that separates them and not a High Septon and DEFINITELY not anyone political either from the North or South, regardless of how much Sansa fans want to free her with their creative scenarios. These two were married and married they will likely stay and death do them part.

I agree with this. But I also think LF will most likely die before most of his plans come to fruition.

[Newstar]

There's also the meta element that if GRRM's going to kill one of or both of Sansa and Tyrion (I'd say Tyrion for sure, Sansa a strong possibility) before the end of the series, and if he has no intention of remarrying either of them to others before one or the other dies, going to all the bother of contriving an annulment hardly seems worth the trouble.

With respect to Tyrion and Tysha's marriage, someone pointed out on the Sansa inheritance thread that bigamy might not be strictly illegal in Westeros, given the attitude towards the Targs' multiple marriages, but I dunno about that. It seems more likely that bigamy is tolerated for the Targs and strictly prohibited for everyone else, much like incest.

Wouldn't be good enough. He needs Baelor's in KL, either the High Septon himself or a Council of Faith.

Agreed. "Some Septon in the Vale" isn't going to cut it; GRRM has said as much.

I think another aspect of LF banking on Tyrion's death is that it's just yet another hint from GRRM that LF's plan is doomed to failure, since it relies on several things happening which are extremely unlikely, with proof of Tyrion's death being the icing on the impossible cake.

[R.O.Edwards]

R.O.Edwards, on 01 Dec 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

I always wondered how Tywin annulled the marriage to Tysha

it's said several times that a marriage can't be annulled once consummated and we know Tyrion and Tysha did consummate so.....?

is Tywin that powerful that he can overrule the laws of the faith ?

if not then Tyrions marriage to sansa is illegal anyway.

Tywin hushed it up. At the time, he was powerful enough to do so and no one would bat an eyelash. But it wasn't a legal annulment and the High Sparrow is different than the old Most Devout - he cares about laws of the Faith.

so is Tyrion still married to Tysha?

[Ser Pounce FTW]

so is Tyrion still married to Tysha?

No!

[R.O.Edwards]

why not ? the marriage was not legally annulled?

[complexphoenix]

Horse riding is unlikely to result in a broken hymen unless it's hard riding - cantering or galloping. Arya was into that sort of thing but my impression is that Sansa wasn't. I doubt she lost her maidenhead in the saddle. If a septa examined her they'd probably find her intact.

[chrisdaw]

Wouldn't be good enough. He needs Baelor's in KL, either the High Septon himself or a Council of Faith.

Not good enough for who? Who in the Vale is going to reject the annulment the Lord Protector has organised to release the niece of their of their beloved former lord and cousin to their current lord from the vile Lannister Imp for a marriage to their heir and very likely near future lord? Who is such a stickler for red tape that they would demand the annulment come from KL where the Lannister's reign, and who they're going to be in defiance of once Sansa is revealed?

[Petyr Patter]

On Tyrion and Tysha's marriage:

1. I think we have to assume to was legally "annulled."
   
2. However, it was a suspect marriage from the get go.
   
3. Tyrion and Tysha were minors wed without their guardian's consent.
   
4. The Septon who conducted the marriage was bribed, drunk, and probably told several lies by Tyrion.
   
5. There were no witnesses besides the intoxicated Septon.
   
6. So, what we have here are two people who claim to be married, but aren't because of the legalities. For a real world example, in American states without common law marriage, claiming to be married because of a secret ceremony won't be held up as legal in a court of law. You (or more likely the priest or the judge conducting the ceremony) still has to file the proper paperwork with the state.
   
7. Here's the kicker though, if there was any chance that Tysha's marriage could be upheld as legally binding, then Tywin would have just killed Tysha and be done with it. Because Tywin leaves nothing to chance.
   
8. In contrast, for Tyrion and Sansa's marriage, they did make sure the ceremony was legally done. They did it in a sept, with a sober septon, with lots of witnesses, and Sansa's legal guardian there to give her away.
   

On Sansa and Tyrions marriage:

I agree with the original poster that this marriage isn't going anywhere. However, I think newstar is missing the other great endgame possibility that Martin might be angling for: a happy Sansa and Tyrion still married.

One of Martin's themes is irrevocable decisions, or "no take backsies." Most characters have had to make awful, compromising choices. Martin has never spared them the consequences of those choices. Consequently, both Sansa and Tyrion had a chance to walk out of their marriage, albeit to probably marry others. They both decided that this was as good as it was going to get for them. So, they are stuck with each other. The other theme is marriage in Westeros is political, and its important to make the best of it like Catelyn and Eddard did or suffer the fate of Lysa and Jon. Still, its not all grim. They pretty much have the same list of enemies (Baelish, Cersie), Tyrion has done a good job of trying to get on Sansa's good graces (and now that he is an attainted Lannister he actually has a shot to do so), and they have a great complimenting skill set.

[Newstar]

I agree with the original poster that this marriage isn't going anywhere. However, I think newstar is missing the other great endgame possibility that Martin might be angling for: a happy Sansa and Tyrion still married.

I didn't "miss" it, I just consider the odds of that to be so remote as to be unworthy of serious consideration. If I were going to speculate about that eventuality, I might as well do an entire post laying out an elaborate prediction for the Avengers showing up in TWOW. :D (Insert your own obligatory Stark/Tony Stark/Iron Man/Iron Throne jokes here.)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

R.O.Edwards, on 01 Dec 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Tywin hushed it up. At the time, he was powerful enough to do so and no one would bat an eyelash. But it wasn't a legal annulment and the High Sparrow is different than the old Most Devout - he cares about laws of the Faith.

so is Tyrion still married to Tysha?

Pretty much.

Not good enough for who? Who in the Vale is going to reject the annulment the Lord Protector has organised to release the niece of their of their beloved former lord and cousin to their current lord from the vile Lannister Imp for a marriage to their heir and very likely near future lord? Who is such a stickler for red tape that they would demand the annulment come from KL where the Lannister's reign, and who they're going to be in defiance of once Sansa is revealed?

Anybody either pious, or concerned with problems down the inheritance line. A not perfectly lawfully married Lord or King naming his not perfectly lawful children as heirs is a 99% chance for civil war a generation or two down the line.

And the precedent is really ugly, for all those Lords who'd like to have their own marriages unquestioned.

So, a lot of people would care.

[chrisdaw]

So for that sake they'd put offside their future lord? I extremely doubt that.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So for that sake they'd put offside their future lord? I extremely doubt that.

Yes. Ask history, it happened all the time.

[spinelladude]

I'm just wondering about this but... can't LF just wait until Cersei and the Lannisters are out of power to request an annulment of the marriage? When Lannisters are no longer power, the threat facing Sansa diminishes vastlly. And also, given the nature of the High Septon, I don't think he'd turn down Sansa's request given his experience with Cersei.

[chrisdaw]

Yes. Ask history, it happened all the time.

How often in history did subjects defy their lord to not recognise the annulment of a forced marriage between an ally and an enemy where the enemy is a proven kin and kingslayer, an escapee, missing and very likely dead? It doesn't seem a situation that may arise very often, and as such not one likely to set a precedent anyone need worry about, especially with the immediate reaction of their lord and future lord to consider.

[SeanF]

There was a thread suggesting that LF has Tysha stashed away somewhere and can produce her to have the marriage annulled, or, failing that, can produce a "Tysha" just as he produced an "Arya" to state all the relevant facts. LF has already indicated he knows about the marriage and could probably find out enough to fill in the details.

I don't know what's required exactly for annulling a marriage on the basis of non-consummation in Westeros, but presumably Sansa's word would suffice, and if some form of virginity testing is required (which I doubt, if all that's needed is a "request"), Sansa would pass that test and prove it easily.

As for the vows being forced, beyond the whole "war hostage" thing, and the conclusion that Sansa would never agree to marry a hideous, scarred dwarf being self-evident, you could probably scare up a few people

from the wedding guests or who were there when Sansa was frogmarched to the sept by soldiers to marry Tyrion.

A further ground for annulment would surely be that Tyrion is a convicted traitor under sentence of death.

[shiola]

Man, if Sansa isn't able to be re-married ever, this potentially increases the chances of her virginity being one of the sole survivors of the series.

[shiola]

I'm just wondering about this but... can't LF just wait until Cersei and the Lannisters are out of power to request an annulment of the marriage? When Lannisters are no longer power, the threat facing Sansa diminishes vastlly. And also, given the nature of the High Septon, I don't think he'd turn down Sansa's request given his experience with Cersei.

so long as people believe she's the key to the north, she will be threatened.

[Miryana]

I agree with the original poster that this marriage isn't going anywhere. However, I think newstar is missing the other great endgame possibility that Martin might be angling for: a happy Sansa and Tyrion still married.

One of Martin's themes is irrevocable decisions, or "no take backsies." Most characters have had to make awful, compromising choices. Martin has never spared them the consequences of those choices. Consequently, both Sansa and Tyrion had a chance to walk out of their marriage, albeit to probably marry others. They both decided that this was as good as it was going to get for them. So, they are stuck with each other. The other theme is marriage in Westeros is political, and its important to make the best of it like Catelyn and Eddard did or suffer the fate of Lysa and Jon. Still, its not all grim. They pretty much have the same list of enemies (Baelish, Cersie), Tyrion has done a good job of trying to get on Sansa's good graces (and now that he is an attainted Lannister he actually has a shot to do so), and they have a great complimenting skill set.

If GRRM wanted us to accept a happy Tyrion/Sansa ending, he shouldn't have had us stay in Tyrion's POV during his rape of an abused, suffering woman. Hell no to any thought of him ever getting to touch Sansa again.

Sansa didn't have a chance to walk out of her marriage. She was informed she was going to be married, nothing probable about that. Tyrion decided (and never cared to investigate whether Tywin would agree to his last-minute face-saving "marry Lancel instead" offer since he wanted the hot bride and Winterfell); Sansa was made to go through with a forced marriage aiming for the death of her family and the usurpation of her inheritance entirely to the benefit of Tyrion's family, not the kind of arranged marriage that Ned and Cat had. This was a marriage intended to give everything to Tyrion and nothing to Sansa while taking her abuse to the next level. She has absolutely no reason to feel obliged make the best of it just because when she was 12 the people who held her captive surprised her with a march to the altar under threat of physical violence. Why should Sansa continue to pay for the decision the Lannisters made for the rest of her life?

The annulment seems like a complicated issue. I doubt Littlefinger will manage to get anything that's unquestionably valid, though he might be counting on the Vale lords not caring and his alliance eventually having the force of arms to make people accept an annulment like they accepted the "legitimacy" of Cersei's children, with Tyrion treated as though he is dead and killed if he returns. IMO, either Tyrion will agree to an annulment because he wants to be loved and isn't going to get that from Sansa (who rejected him totally in ASOS and doesn't care about his fate afterwards), or he will die and Sansa will be undeniably free to remarry or live out her life at Winterfell as she wishes. Littlefinger's plan regarding the Harry marriage is optimistic at best and will probably come crashing down spectacularly in TWOW: he might not even live to see Tyrion reappear in Westeros.

[Newstar]

A further ground for annulment would surely be that Tyrion is a convicted traitor under sentence of death.

I dunno about that, as Tyrion's status as a traitor under a death sentence bears no relation to the validity of the marriage, while bigamy, lack of consent, and non-consummation do. It would certainly be grounds for divorce, if divorce existed in Westeros, but not for an annulment.

I'd also add that if attainder constituted grounds for annulment, given all the attainders flying around over the course of the series (the Tullys, the Florents, etc.), that would mean a lot of marriages were void.

Man, if Sansa isn't able to be re-married ever, this potentially increases the chances of her virginity being one of the sole survivors of the series.

Sansa as Virgin Queen. Calling it now. :D

...For real, though, Sansa can be remarried. She just has to wait until Tyrion dies, and I'm very confident Tyrion will, albeit not until the last chunk of ADOS. Then she can marry whomever. All the Tyrion/Sansa marriage does is keep her from being married off again in the interim, and given Sansa's current attitude on marriage, it seems like a marriage taking place after the dust settles, i.e. in the home stretch of the series (since Tyrion is unlikely to die until the last possible moment), would be the best option for her, anyway. Win-win, really: she's ultimately rid of Tyrion, and she'll be protected from another political marriage until the political situation in Westeros stabilizes and she won't be forced or even cajoled into marrying for political expediency in wartime (as Edmure and Alys did).

Of course, if Sansa does die before the end of the series, and I'd say there's a good chance of that, she wouldn't be remarried, ever, I agree.

I'm just wondering about this but... can't LF just wait until Cersei and the Lannisters are out of power to request an annulment of the marriage? When Lannisters are no longer power, the threat facing Sansa diminishes vastlly. And also, given the nature of the High Septon, I don't think he'd turn down Sansa's request given his experience with Cersei.

Even with Cersei out of the picture, there's still a considerable element of risk involved: the risk that others might not be willing to let Sansa's supposed role in the PW slide, the risk that the High Septon will refuse the request for an annulment or impose conditions that Littlefinger might not want to meet (requiring Sansa to travel to KL to submit to a virginity test, who knows?), the risk that revealing Sansa's location prior to her marriage to Harry will bring all sorts of unwanted attention to Littlefinger and Sansa--from the northerners and others--he wouldn't be able to deal with without the Harry/Sansa marriage in place, etc. With Tyrion dying, all Littlefinger has to do is spread the word. Asking for an annulment before the Harry/Sansa wedding just draws a lot of unwanted attention to himself and introduces a lot of unpredictable third parties into the equation (whoever's in charge in KL, who might not be willing to let Sansa off the hook, the High Septon, the northerners, Vale dwellers with their own plans for Sansa, etc. etc.).

I doubt Littlefinger will manage to get anything that's unquestionably valid, though he might be counting on the Vale lords not caring and his alliance eventually having the force of arms to make people accept an annulment like they accepted the "legitimacy" of Cersei's children, with Tyrion treated as though he is dead and killed if he returns.

Mmm, not really. Tyrion's widely known to be alive, so Tyrion being "treated as though he is dead" doesn't actually mean anything. And LF is clearly not intending to try to wrangle an annulment of any description, anyway, so he knows, at least, that trying to obtain an annulment at this juncture is a hopeless business. I don't know why you're so intent on trying to figure out a way for Littlefinger to obtain an annulment when LF himself, the cleverest, craftiest, most politically savvy character in a series with thousands of characters, has evidently realized that widowing Sansa, seemingly a near-impossible task, is easier than annulling her marriage.

or he will die and Sansa will be undeniably free to remarry or live out her life at Winterfell as she wishes

This is pretty much my prediction, assuming Sansa doesn't die first, although there is a possibility that Sansa is the one that will die and Tyrion will survive her. I think it's extremely unlikely they'll both make it out of the series alive, which renders an annulment academic in the long run.

Littlefinger's plan regarding the Harry marriage is optimistic at best and will probably come crashing down spectacularly in TWOW: he might not even live to see Tyrion reappear in Westeros.

Agreed. I think the fact that LF is relying on Tyrion's death is another sign that his plan is doomed to fail.