"Until Sansa's safely widowed": Littlefinger's Annulment Dilemma

[Iona]

Hmm, with regards to possible grounds to annulling the Sansa/Tyrion marriage, I'd be willing to accept all other aspects that have been posted, but I have a feeling that we can't use the "she was married without a permission from her family" card here. Sansa has flowered, so she's considered adult in Westeros, and I'm inclined to think she would not need the consent from a legal guardian.

I admit I don't have any quotes or anything to prove it, but in my mind the permission from a head of a family would only be required with brides and grooms that are not yet considered adults, like Tyrek's marriage to baby Ermesande and the Tyrion/Tysha marriage.

[Miryana]

Mmm, not really. Tyrion's widely known to be alive, so Tyrion being "treated as though he is dead" doesn't actually mean anything. And LF is clearly not intending to try to wrangle an annulment of any description, anyway, so he knows, at least, that trying to obtain an annulment at this juncture is a hopeless business. I don't know why you're so intent on trying to figure out a way for Littlefinger to obtain an annulment when LF himself, the cleverest, craftiest, most politically savvy character in a series with thousands of characters, has evidently realized that widowing Sansa, seemingly a near-impossible task, is easier than annulling her marriage.

I'm so convinced Littlefinger will lose that I guess my thoughts automatically jump to annulment even though it's not in his plan because it seems more likely (by mutual agreement after Tyrion's return) than Littlefinger getting Sansa to marry either Harry or Aegon. But how does Littlefinger expect to pull this off if he's not positioning things for an annulment and we don't hear about him sending thugs after Tyrion either? Is he just hoping that Cersei will do the work and get Tyrion's head brought to her before she's even more totally screwed and powerless than she is right now? It's been some time now since he found out that the executioner in King's Landing wouldn't make Sansa a widow the neat way. Littlefinger's relied on good fortune and his ability to manipulate the chaos a great deal in the past, but this seems sloppy and overly confident even for him.

[FC_Lymond]

I don't think an easy annulment is in the cards. This marriage will be an obstacle to someone's plans, or desires, or freedom.

[Woman of War]

If GRRM wanted us to accept a happy Tyrion/Sansa ending, he shouldn't have had us stay in Tyrion's POV during his rape of an abused, suffering woman. Hell no to any thought of him ever getting to touch Sansa again.

I do not see the logic behind this. If you are talking about the prostitute in Selhorys and Tyrion's hatefuck there - how could this disqualify him in Sansa's eyes? She does not know a thing about what happened there. Tyrion has certainly heavier things on his soul like Blackwater, Shae or his childhood Tysha trauma if there should ever be confession time. And we will see what might weigh down Sansa until then.

I actually agree with Petyr Patter and I would not really rule out the possibility of Sansa and Tyrion staying together out of free will in the end, though the odds are small since both characters would have to be alive.

One of Martin's themes is irrevocable decisions, or "no take backsies." Most characters have had to make awful, compromising choices. Martin has never spared them the consequences of those choices. Consequently, both Sansa and Tyrion had a chance to walk out of their marriage, albeit to probably marry others. They both decided that this was as good as it was going to get for them. So, they are stuck with each other. The other theme is marriage in Westeros is political, and its important to make the best of it like Catelyn and Eddard did or suffer the fate of Lysa and Jon. Still, its not all grim. They pretty much have the same list of enemies (Baelish, Cersie), Tyrion has done a good job of trying to get on Sansa's good graces (and now that he is an attainted Lannister he actually has a shot to do so), and they have a great complimenting skill set.

We need not discuss this on the like or dislike level but on the meta level of plot construction the theory has some points - if the author does not kill one or both characters. I guess here it is indeed "till death do us part".

I personally am not so sure if I would like it since Sansa is not my favorite character - so far only of course - but Martin will hardly ask me.

[YTDN]

I do not see the logic behind this. If you are talking about the prostitute in Selhorys and Tyrion's hatefuck there - how could this disqualify him in Sansa's eyes? She does not know a thing about what happened there. Tyrion has certainly heavier things on his soul like Blackwater, Shae or his childhood Tysha trauma if there should ever be confession time. And we will see what might weigh down Sansa until then.

What that incident shows is that Tyrion is not (at least at this moment in time) capable of having a healthy, non-abusive sexual relationship with a woman, and Sansa doesn't deserve to have to be married to a man like that. Plus, if we look at Tyrion's opinion of Sansa after his exile he's put her into the 'evil women betraying me' category along with Shae, which again, doesn't bode well for a healthy relationship if and when they meet again.

[Iona]

What that incident shows is that Tyrion is not (at least at this moment in time) capable of having a healthy, non-abusive sexual relationship with a woman, and Sansa doesn't deserve to have to be married to a man like that. Plus, if we look at Tyrion's opinion of Sansa after his exile he's put her into the 'evil women betraying me' category along with Shae, which again, doesn't bode well for a healthy relationship if and when they meet again.

Do we see anyone having a "healthy, non-abusive sexual relationship with a woman whore"? I'd say when we are talking about prostitution that is by definition pretty unbelievable. Prostitution and actual relationships should not be compared.

We've only seen Tyrion loving whores/assumed whores, but the fact that he declined from raping Sansa even when he felt immense pressure by his family to do so, we can see that he does understand the definition between wanting an actual relationship with a wife vs. paying someone in order to fuck.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

and Sansa doesn't deserve to have to be married to a man like that.

And Martin always gives his characters what they deserve.

Tyrion is at his lowest point in ADwD. I completely expect him to claw his way up from there in the next books to a position of power. He was subjected to experiences designed to show a turn in his thinking and actions as part of his character arc, similar to other characters in the series like Sansa. Judging Tyrion on who he was in the other books is just the same as judging Sansa on who she was in AGoT, Theon in ACoK and Jaime in most of the books. They grew to understand more of the world they live in and how they were wrong in the past, just as I expect Tyrion will. I don't know if Sansa-Tyrion is the end game but it won't be because of what either of them "deserves".

[Dicer]

Why should Sansa continue to pay for the decision the Lannisters made for the rest of her life?

Isn't that how it works in Westeros? Catelyn sold Arya to the Freys for a bridge. If Robb had not broken his vows, Arya would have ended up paying for the decisions her family made for the rest of her life by marrying the 22nd son of Walder Frey. She would have hated it but been stuck with it. Atleast there's a chance that Sansa could possibly maybe be lady of Casterly Rock or Winterfell. What does Arya get as the wife of the 22nd son of Walder Frey? Nothing.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

Isn't that how it works in Westeros? Catelyn sold Arya to the Freys for a bridge. If Robb had not broken his vows, Arya would have ended up paying for the decisions her family made for the rest of her life by marrying the 22nd son of Walder Frey. She would have hated it but been stuck with it. Atleast there's a chance that Sansa could possibly maybe be lady of Casterly Rock or Winterfell. What does Arya get as the wife of the 22nd son of Walder Frey? Nothing.

Never thought about that. This is actually very sad :(

But on the other hand, that would mean that she wouldn't have that much responsibilities, and could spent more time doing whatever she likes? Also, her husband wouldn't have that much authority over her. After all, she would be sister to the King in the North, and he would be a nobody.

[Lummel]

I've often seen talk on the boards about Littlefinger arranging for an annulment of Sansa's marriage. However, assuming LF is on the level in laying out his plan to Sansa, LF has no intention of annulling the marriage. Littlefinger in AFFC tells Sansa that the Harry/Sansa "must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa's safely widowed." Not "until Sansa's marriage is annulled." Not even "until Sansa's marriage is dealt with" or something similarly vague.

... and yet LF, a consummately clever individual with a keen grasp of strategy, is banking on Tyrion dying and not on annulling the marriage. Why?...

So here's the answer. LF can't marry off Harry to Sansa until she's freed of her previous husband, and she can't be freed of her previous husband via annulment without outing Sansa's location, unless Tyrion dies. That explains why LF is banking on Tyrion's death--as difficult as it seems--rather than an annulment, because he cannot obtain an annulment without revealing Sansa's location.

...The Tyrion/Sansa marriage therefore effectively operates as a "marriage shield" for Sansa, protecting her from any political marriages, either to Harry or to anyone else, at least until such time as Tyrion dies, and I think this is entirely intentional on GRRM's part. Whatever he has in mind for Sansa, at least until after Tyrion's death (so essentially the remainder of the series), it involves something other than another marriage, and this is entirely in line with Sansa's thinking, since she has no interest in political marriages...

I agree with the marriage shield, effectively Sansa is protected from remarriage for the time being. This is true even if, and it is a big if, that Tyrion is still legally married to Tysha - because who could prove that now?

However I also don't think that Petyr was telling Sansa his plans, rather he was doing what he generally does which is telling people the lies they want to hear to motivate them to do what he wants. Petyr is assuming that that what Sansa wants is a marriage to an heir, a flower of chivalry and so he cooks up this story for her. It is the equivalent of providing Lyn Corbray with nubile boys and the opportunity for violence.

In a grooming situation it builds up Sansa's dependence on Petyr - he is the one promising her nice things. There's also a knowledge imbalance. Petyr very probably knows that Tyrion has disappeared - whereabouts unknown. On the other hand Sansa probably doesn't know at the time that Petyr is spinning her his tale. When she finds out we'll probably find that Petyr alters his story or spins her a new one.

Something else to think about is that in the Harry the Heir plan, Sansa can hardy get independent verification that this has been agreed between Lady Waynwood and Lord Baelish, but she is required to makes eyes at Harry and encourage him to think of marrying her. If Harry is distracted enough to want to marry Sansa - what other potential bride is he disappointing? In other words I suspect that this is a ploy to break up some other planned marriage and I doubt if anything has been agreed with Waynwood.

For Petyr the win/win situation might be to break up some other engagement which could be bad for his political position in the Vale with the perfect thing - a marriage that can't take place. At the same time it is something he can appear to be offering Sansa, exactly like the earlier promise to take her home, something that he thinks she wants but that he has no intention of giving her...at least not until he's had her maidenhead.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Tywin hushed it up. At the time, he was powerful enough to do so and no one would bat an eyelash. But it wasn't a legal annulment and the High Sparrow is different than the old Most Devout - he cares about laws of the Faith.

WHAT!? Where is your proof?

That's crazy and there is no way Tywin would be that stupid! All Tysha would have to do is show up with a baby and they'd be fucked. Why would Tywin "use his power to 'hush' it up" when he used his power to get it annulled instead? He was the Hand of the King at the time and I'm sure the High Septon was in his pocket to guarantee the marriage was dissolved. It was even most likely the Fat One that was torn apart in the riots and if not him than it was someone just like him or Tywin would replace him and the High Septon knows it. I'm sorry but that is completely silly to argue otherwise.

[Theda Baratheon]

I must say I really like the idea of a Tyrion/Sansa marriage being a marriage shield for Sansa, I never thought of it like this before but it makes sense to me.

[complexphoenix]

Sansa didn't have a chance to walk out of her marriage. She was informed she was going to be married, nothing probable about that. Tyrion decided (and never cared to investigate whether Tywin would agree to his last-minute face-saving "marry Lancel instead" offer since he wanted the hot bride and Winterfell); Sansa was made to go through with a forced marriage aiming for the death of her family and the usurpation of her inheritance entirely to the benefit of Tyrion's family, not the kind of arranged marriage that Ned and Cat had. This was a marriage intended to give everything to Tyrion and nothing to Sansa while taking her abuse to the next level.

I'm with you that the Sansa/Tyrion marriage was a wretched act of cruelty on Tywin's part, but I wouldn't call it "usurpation of her inheritance" nor would I say that it gives her absolutely nothing. Tywin's conversation with Tyrion about the match makes it pretty clear that Tywin is planning for Sansa's children to inherit Winterfell; he understands that the Starks are too long-established and too beloved to simply annihilate completely like the Reynes and Tarbecks. Robb believes that the Lannisters are going to kill Sansa once she has a child, but I doubt this was Tywin's plan. I expect his plan was to keep Sansa alive and breeding for as long as possible, to ensure they had plenty of heirs to stock Winterfell and guard against pretenders. It's still abusive; it's essentially a rape marriage; it's horrible and cruel; but Sansa still gets one thing out of this, the consolation prize of having her children inherit Winterfell.

[Woman of War]

I must say I really like the idea of a Tyrion/Sansa marriage being a marriage shield for Sansa, I never thought of it like this before but it makes sense to me.

I'd even speculate that Sansa may at some point be forced to insist that the marriage WAS consummated so that no one can annull it and make another grasp at her claim. This would be a slap in the face of those who want to make use of her.

[complexphoenix]

Personally, I think that the biggest and most obvious indicator that LF's plot is doomed to failure is that he's hatching it on-page. In this series, successful plots are almost always hatched off-page and we only find out about them when they come to their successful fruition, whereas unsuccessful plots are hatched on-page and then we get to watch them fail. Once a previously successful character starts describing their plans on-page in exhaustive detail, this is a dead giveaway that they are going down.

[ambi76]

Once a previously successful character starts hatching their plots on-page, this is a dead giveaway that they are going down.

See also: Varys. Yes, I think both of our behind the scenes evil masterminds will be in big dodo soon.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I believe people will just declare Tyrion as dead, and Sansa will be married to Harry. We know that it's not hard to forge a death on Westeros via Jon Connington. Why wouldn't Littlefinger just forge Tyrion's demise?

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I believe people will just declare Tyrion as dead, and Sansa will be married to Harry. We know that it's not hard to forge a death on Westeros via Jon Connington. Why wouldn't Littlefinger just forge Tyrion's demise?

Littlefinger tends to be neater than that. He could get away with impersonating Arya since she is a child and not many know what she looks like. If the real Arya turns up, he believes he could easily discredit her. That would be much harder if the real Tyrion turns up.

LF clearly thinks Tyrion will be taken care of by Cersei and her forces for the death of her son. He is not anticipating Tyrion arriving with Dany in the Vale or however that group will arrive in Westeros. That's too fantastical for even him to see coming.

As for Jon Con, Jon faked his own disappearance. He didn't want to be found and he wasn't. That's hardly the case for Tyrion. He's been found several times.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Nah, I have to agree with Newstar - far too many poster are expecting an annulment which will more than likely never happen. Whether Joff is declared a bastard or not, Sansa is now married to Tyrion. That won't go away because no one from her family gave her away.

I do believe they will be married at the end of the story however, I'm not sure if both will outlive the books. In any case, I do believe it will be death that separates them and not a High Septon and DEFINITELY not anyone political either from the North or South, regardless of how much Sansa fans want to free her with their creative scenarios. These two were married and married they will likely stay and death do them part.

I still need convincing I'm afraid. The Starks evidently opposed the marriage, and nobody from either the Starks or Tullys either witnessed the wedding or gave Sansa away. The only one who did was a king whose legitimacy will soon be under question.

Funny thing is, that Harrenhall, strictly speaking and from an anti-Lannister perspective, now should belong to the Tullys (Edmure), since Hoster`s wife was a Whent, who are extinct now.

Would Edmure be allowed to hold both Harrenhal and Riverrun?

Re the annulment, I would be very very surprised if the Great One is placing all his eggs in that one basket, especially now he knows Tyrion is on the loose.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I still need convincing I'm afraid. The Starks evidently opposed the marriage, and nobody from either the Starks or Tullys either witnessed the wedding or gave Sansa away. The only one who did was a king whose legitimacy will soon be under question.

Hardly! There was a room full of guests to witness the wedding and a dinner afterwards. Do you really think the fact that Starks and Tullys were not there makes the marriage invalid? The couple was viewed by the entire court and all the guests at Joff's wedding! Of course if you're not convinced, that's up to you.