Heresy 83

[Black Crow]

The Ironborn practice near-slavery with their thralls and saltwives. They don't buy and sell thralls, but then they don't hold with buying or selling anything much, preferring to pay the iron price.

Perfectly true and this again highlights the Stark's contrasting opposition - although an explanation might well be that the Slavers at White Harbour were indeed Ironborn rather than random entrepreneurs.

[Ahri Adaran]

Orrin Storm: I do like the linking of the heart trees to the various families. That's the best explanation I've seen yet about the very un-Mandelian persistence of family traits across Westerosi noble families.

[LynnS]

Thanks for the excerpts Black Crow. I didn't know there was a link to passages from the World Book. I have to let this stuff sink in a bit and I've got a bit of a scratchy throat; because winter is here in my part of the world. I'll need coffee or something....

[Lord Ravenstark]

Perfectly true and this again highlights the Stark's contrasting opposition - although an explanation might well be that the Slavers at White Harbour were indeed Ironborn rather than random entrepreneurs.

True but slavery, sometimes, is the ASOIAF's "drug dealing": some see it as a way to get easy money, like Jorah.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I suggested this up thread it seems most plausible during a first contact scenario that the telepathic of the Old races make contact. It so happened that it was the Starks that were susceptible to this. I can see this as being problematic,you land on a continent and some members of your kin start having weird dreams of trees and wolves etc. That would not go done well with the rest of the party.

Didn't comment the first time you posted - but I like this idea, WOLFMAID. A Westeros spin on the classic first-contact alien language barrier.

[Black Crow]

Thanks for the excerpts Black Crow. I didn't know there was a link to passages from the World Book. I have to let this stuff sink in a bit and I've got a bit of a scratchy throat; because winter is here in my part of the world. I'll need coffee or something....

That's pretty well all of it, apart from a passage about the defeat of the Faith Militant - first time around. As I say there's some thought-provoking stuff in there but we do need to bear in mind with this and the book itself whenever it actually appears is that it isn't a definitive encyclopedia but is rather written to reflect what the maesters know or think they know or really don't know at all but are just bluffing.

[Black Crow]

And yet recall this was meant to be a test of serious readership.

The R+L=J camp (as their thread title suggests) will tell you that Jon's parents are clear, beyond argument, and de facto canon -- a perfect test of any serious reader.

But it seems GRRM doesn't see things quite the same way...

It all seems quite odd, since certain authorities associated with this site have sworn up and down that GRRM used to ask "Who are Jon's parents?" as his test -- for instance, with the editor of GoT. If said authorities are right, then GRRM must have abandoned this test for some reason, and switched to asking about Jon's mother.

Oh course, and this is a true heresy here, we have to remember that GRRM started writing all of this a very long time ago and for all we know may in the meantime have changed his mind. He may, just for the sake of argument, have set up the R+L=J clues or supposed clues in preparation for an eventual denoumont and then decided, nah, too cheesy - and killed him off instead. :devil:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I have a theory about the First Men, the weirwoods, the blood sacrifices, the changeling, and the Heart Trees. So here it goes. It's been established, or argued, that Crastor and his family are fey in nature. Or at the least something similar. When Sam accepts the flower it is a mark of a pact, right? He will aid Gilly in her escape from BtW. Someone even showed how his name broke down into bearer. I like this theory as it seems to show a very structured way in which deals with the Old and Cold gods are struck. So wouldn't Crastor have made a similar deal with the Others? Or the original Crastor? More on this later.

Now we know or suspect that the weirwoods require a blood sacrifice. It's this sacrifice that gives the tree vitality. It also seems to give the Stark children vitality too, these blood sacrifices. And I don't believe this is coincidental. A long time ago we had discussions on if the Others or the Children could possibly interbreed with people. This was because, of course, The Night King was said to have done this very thing. We talked about how the Starks could have some of this Cold blood in their veins, and that the Reed's may have bred with the Children (producing their small stature) also. This was before a lot of the changeling conversations and theories came up, so that idea was never worked in. Now, we know a little more.

Now back a ways, before the first men came. We know the children practiced what was essentially ancestor worship by way of the weirwoods. All the children would join with the trees when try died, adding to this great network. Then the first men came, and their was war. The first men cut the trees down, and killed the children. Unknown events surrounding Moat Calin ended the war, and an event known as the Pact took place. This was on the Isle of Faces, but it wasn't just a cease fire; because the First Men adopted the Old Gods. I think this is pivotal in explaining the First Men as they're remembered. Conquering forces adapt their own religions around the customs of the locals to assimilate them, but we know the FM abandoned their own gods. Why?

I believe The Pact worked much in the same way as Gilly's flower worked with Sam. The Children gave the First Men the Heart Trees as a peace pact. We know that all heart trees are weirwoods, but not all weirwoods are heart trees. Heart trees are special, they are the center of the Northerners religious ties to the Old Gods.

Ever Heart tree is different, their faces are as unique as the men that pray beneath them, and that is very interesting. I believe that every Heart Tree was born from planting the seed in a person, and it slowly taking them. That persons family characteristics then become the faces on the trees. We know that the faces are said to be carved, but we have one great example of no carving required, The Black Gate. While I'm sure that some faces are carved, others are grown, and it's these trees that stand at the center of the Gods wood. The faces on several trees even resemble the family for which it was grown (Stark and Manderly are the best examples). After all, the Old Gods are the greenseers and ancestors of the Children, why wouldn't the Heart Trees be the same for the descendent a of the FM?

So the First Men have made their Pact, and now we have "interbreeding". Some of the children are replaced with changelings. The skinchanging and greenseeing passes into the bloodlines. The Long Night comes and goes and we have the Watch and the King of Winter, his younger brother and the King BtW. For some reason NK took an Other to be his wife, "and when he gave his seed to her, he gave his soul as well". This was a pact. Probably very similar to Crastor's, and this pact is what could have caused the extreme hate for him. If, and we believe, that NK was a Stark, he has opened the door for the Others to merge with the Starks.

So now it's in the Starks, the skinchanging, the green sight, and now the Others own... Something. Perhaps it manifested like the Targaryen marker? Or maybe it went unnoticed until the Stark was laid to rest, when they were lowered into the cold crypts, and they became like the Others. Maybe that is the reason for the iron swords? Maybe they were meant to ward this change postmortem.

That's all for me tonight. I wish I could add more, but I'm doing this all from a cell phone so it's more difficult from the days when I had internet and used my computer. I hope someone appreciates this. Night Heretics.

Small addition: wouldn't it be beautiful if the Pact between the NK and the Lady Other was sealed with a Winter Rose? Lyanna's flower, and the same token left by Bael with the Stark heir? This symbology also carries to Jon, whose body is currently "cold".

Love the broad scope of your thinking, here - pacts and bloodlines, Craster and Night's King, Winterfell Crypts, and BtB as ward of the COTF. Lots to think about here, and I empathize with the awkward business of posting from a phone.

One thing I will say about the Sam-Gilly pact is that the key feature (it seems to me) is the fact that Sam was not fully aware of the terms of the bargain, or the stakes involved. In fact, though Gilly repeatedly tells him she will be his wife ("as [she] was Craster's") - and I think it's clear that she represents a form of payment, at least as far as Craster's women are concerned - it's doubtful that Sam perceived the decision as a bargain at all. If it turns out (as I suspect it will) that Gilly's son plays some role in bringing down the Wall or the Night's Watch, I expect Sam will be quite upset.

Similarly - while currently we know very little about the Pact agreed to on the Isle of Faces, I would not be surprised if the First Men (like Sam) were ultimately deceived at some level in their agreement with the COTF. Or, if "deceived" seems a strong word, perhaps it is better to say that the First Men would not have fully understood the stakes and consequences of the contract - and they may later have felt deceived.

I don't think we have enough information at this point to say how those unanticipated consequences played out. It may have something to do with the "cold hell reserved for Starks of Winterfell;" it could be connected with the blood price paid for construction of the Wall, or it could be something else (the eventual adoption of the old gods by men, perhaps).

But the notion that humans would be taken advantage of in some way through bargaining with fairies - or that they should perceive such trickery in hindsight - is an old and established part of the fairy tale itself. And however the specific terms played out between the COTF and the FM, the perception of such foul play could certainly have motivated later violation and disregard of the Pact by men.

[Orrin Storm]

Do we have a Heresy for Bran the Builder being The Black Gate? It sounds to me like Bran the Builder and Our Bran might have been taught the same way. Not that our Bran would become a gate, but he is expected to sit on a Weirwood throne and slowly grow into the grove. Bran the Builders contribution to the wall may be The Black Gate.

The location at the Nightfort suggest it is at least as old as the castle or predates it.

[Black Crow]

No, but there is a heresy which started out as a Halloween story that the Black Gate is the Nights King.

[Black Crow]

As to the Nightfort itself, while you were away you missed a fairly important point about the timelines which occurred to us. Leaving aside the question of whether the Wall really is 8000 years old or more likely just 6000 years old (another heresy which come from sorting out the timelines) what we are told is that the Black Gate is as old as the Wall. It therefore follows that the Nightfort itself is as old as the Wall, albeit originally it may have only comprised the circular domed building over the stairwell. So far so good, but then we're also told that the Nightfort is twice as old as the other castles. From that it doesn't require the brains of an archbishop, let alone any counting on fingers to figure out that for the first half of its long existence there were no other castles on the Wall.

[Black Crow]

That's pretty well all of it, apart from a passage about the defeat of the Faith Militant - first time around. As I say there's some thought-provoking stuff in there but we do need to bear in mind with this and the book itself whenever it actually appears is that it isn't a definitive encyclopedia but is rather written to reflect what the maesters know or think they know or really don't know at all but are just bluffing.

Just to expand a little this is a post by Werthead, who is in on it:

The world book is actually set before the series begins, and describes the world at that point and its history leading up to that. The conceit is that it's an actual in-Westeros book given to Robert Baratheon some time after he became king but (obviously) before he died and AGoT takes place. The new information will be expanding rather massively on historical events, including the Dance of Dragons, War of the Ninepenny Kings, Blackfyre Rebellions and Aegon's invasion.

And from Ran, who is involved in writing it:

The worldbook has references to all sorts of discrepancies in the historical records, and disagreements between maesters regarding bits of received knowledge, and so on.

[nanother]

As to the Nightfort itself, while you were away you missed a fairly important point about the timelines which occurred to us. Leaving aside the question of whether the Wall really is 8000 years old or more likely just 6000 years old (another heresy which come from sorting out the timelines) what we are told is that the Black Gate is as old as the Wall. It therefore follows that the Nightfort itself is as old as the Wall, albeit originally it may have only comprised the circular domed building over the stairwell. So far so good, but then we're also told that the Nightfort is twice as old as the other castles. From that it doesn't require the brains of an archbishop, let alone any counting on fingers to figure out that for the first half of its long existence there were no other castles on the Wall.

This keeps coming up, but no we're NOT told that. We're told that it's 2x as old as Castle Black. For all we know, CB could be the newest of all castles. Unless there's a bit of information I missed.

[Urrax]

Oh course, and this is a true heresy here, we have to remember that GRRM started writing all of this a very long time ago and for all we know may in the meantime have changed his mind. He may, just for the sake of argument, have set up the R+L=J clues or supposed clues in preparation for an eventual denoumont and then decided, nah, too cheesy - and killed him off instead. :devil:

It's been so long, and keeps getting longer, that maybe he's forgotten what the plan was. :bang:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Oh course, and this is a true heresy here, we have to remember that GRRM started writing all of this a very long time ago and for all we know may in the meantime have changed his mind. He may, just for the sake of argument, have set up the R+L=J clues or supposed clues in preparation for an eventual denoumont and then decided, nah, too cheesy - and killed him off instead. :devil:

Someone needs to hook GRRM up to the weirnet life-support system. He's gonna need another 60 years to get everything sorted and revised, minor inconsistencies and timelines ironed out, new editions issued, etc. Sir Frazer himself didn't finish his 3rd edition until 25 years after he completed the first; and he issued a supplement another 22 years after that. George could get this thing right, if he lived to 2073... ;)

[Black Crow]

This keeps coming up, but no we're NOT told that. We're told that it's 2x as old as Castle Black. For all we know, CB could be the newest of all castles. Unless there's a bit of information I missed.

I'm fairly sure there's another reference to this that we discussed a few heresies ago, but the one I think you're referring to is:

"Twice as old as Castke Black," Bran said, remembering. "It was the first castle on the Wall and the largest." But it had also been the first abandoned, all the way back in the time of the Old King. Even then it had been three-quarters empty and too costly to maintain. Good Queen Alysanne had suggested the Watch replace it with a smaller, newer castle at a spot only seven miles east, where the Wall curved along the shore of a beautiful green lake. Deep Lake had been paid for by the Queen's jewels and built by men the Old King had sent north, and the black brothers had abandoned the Nightfort to the rats.

That was two centuries past...

[Orrin Storm]

I'm fairly sure there's another reference to this that we discussed a few heresies ago, but the one I think you're referring to is:

"Twice as old as Castke Black," Bran said, remembering. "It was the first castle on the Wall and the largest." But it had also been the first abandoned, all the way back in the time of the Old King. Even then it had been three-quarters empty and too costly to maintain. Good Queen Alysanne had suggested the Watch replace it with a smaller, newer castle at a spot only seven miles east, where the Wall curved along the shore of a beautiful green lake. Deep Lake had been paid for by the Queen's jewels and built by men the Old King had sent north, and the black brothers had abandoned the Nightfort to the rats.

That was two centuries past...

That quote reinforces the hyperbole. If the Nightfort is only twice as old as Castle Black, then It was built during the Doom...

[Black Crow]

No, it was Deep Lake which was built 200 years ago, not Castle Black.

[Orrin Storm]

No, it was Deep Lake which was built 200 years ago, not Castle Black.

Whoops. My mistake.

[Lord Ravenstark]

This keeps coming up, but no we're NOT told that. We're told that it's 2x as old as Castle Black. For all we know, CB could be the newest of all castles. Unless there's a bit of information I missed.

Westerosi are not that good with dates... like Sam and Jon, with their idea of "Valyrian steel may kill the Others" when... well, there's no reference of such alloy at least 400 years ago. I think they existed but never during the War for the Dawn.