Phillip Frye Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Here are some examples: Arya's love of water is very clear, she is at home in the water… Suggesting that one day she will survive some catastrophic flood, a boat sinking, or something of this nature. Arya's time spent being blind - suggest that she will be fighting in the dark, pursued by someone at night, or stalking someone at night... She mentally recorded the directions & number of steps, door locks, etc that are required to access 'the face vault' deep under the House of Black & White… Suggesting that when/if she ever goes rouge, she will be well equipped when she departs. Her beauty & her time spent at the Happy Port suggest that she might pose as a whore at some point in the future. Arya's mutlilingility, yet thick accents, suggest that this accent might betray her at some point & her cover might be blown (that may not be the only thing blown if she is going to pose as a whore at some point, haha)… She is after all, a kid, & no one is more aware of this than GRRM, so we can look forward to Arya making some mistakes - I think that her accent might get her in trouble... I'm sure that you guys/girls can think of many, many more lessons she has learned that point toward future events... . . . I remain confident that Arya, welding Needle, will be the person that kills Jon (because Jon will become too powerful to be allowed to live)... Also, if I had to put money on it, I would wager that Arya does not survive the series; though she will first be the instrument (or one of the instruments) through which GRRM provides resolution. While I am less certain of where the series is headed regarding particular characters killing other characters, I would agree that Arya is quite capable of killing anyone in the series who needed killing. I don't know if that will be Jon, but I think Arya more likely to kill Jon than have Jon ruffle her hair, causing her to snap back into her old self. All six of your points are good possibilities about how Arya's story could develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Despite the fact that Arya will be wearing a deferent face, Jon will recognize her, whether through Needle or not… They will definitely share a moment before she gives Jon "the gift" of the many-faced god… Sticks him with the pointy-end… gives him the gift of mercy… After all, we know that sometimes different roads can lead to the same castle... She will definitely deliver Jon's death, that has been carved into stone since Book 1… Jon will more than likely long for death, but be so very powerful that his consciousness cannot be killed. Arya, welding Needle will give Jon the peace that the desires… bittersweet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Despite the fact that Arya will be wearing a deferent face, Jon will recognize her, whether through Needle or not… They will definitely share a moment before she gives Jon "the gift" of the many-faced god… Sticks him with the pointy-end… gives him the gift of mercy… After all, we know that sometimes different roads can lead to the same castle... She will definitely deliver Jon's death, that has been carved into stone since Book 1… Jon will more than likely long for death, but be so very powerful that his consciousness cannot be killed. Arya, welding Needle will give Jon the peace that the desires… bittersweet... Just when we were starting to get along. (Shakes head). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 You can't have a sabbatical now Evita,addicted is starting to make sense..... Next thing you know, I'll be claiming that the Horn of Winter is a comet, or something crazy like that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Next thing you know, I'll be claiming that the Horn of Winter is a comet, or something crazy like that... It does sound batshit crazy but I still haven't dismissed that idea.There are too many connections between disparate legends to rule out a common causal factor.Lightbringer in Asshai,Dawn in Westeros,for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 11, 2013 Author Share Posted December 11, 2013 I agree, which is why I put the word "good" in quotations in my post. I did that anticipating all of the people on this board (of all places!) saying that Arya is their favorite character and "you go, girl!". She is definitely a fan favorite and one of the good guys to most readers, which is what I am having trouble fathoming. While not shy of expressing opinions about characters or their actions, I'd say that on the whole we try to avoid that kind of thing in these here parts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 11, 2013 Author Share Posted December 11, 2013 It does sound batshit crazy but I still haven't dismissed that idea.There are too many connections between disparate legends to rule out a common causal factor.Lightbringer in Asshai,Dawn in Westeros,for example. I'd agree with this, which also feeds in to some of the stuff we've been talking about earlier. If we return for a moment to the Others just as an example; they're also referred to in text as white walkers or white shadows, and a Bran reference to stalking shadows appears to be another variant, not forgetting Gilly's Cold Gods and perhaps also those cold northern ghosts at Moat Caillin. Similarly we have Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised The point being that we have multiple names used for the same thing and I think the same is going to be found true of the wider story; that what appear to be different issues are actually part of the same conflict. That doesn't of course necessarily mean that Mel is right and that all of this is about R'hllor and the Great Other; but rather that's just how she sees the eternal conflict from her own particular viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I believe that GRRM made Arya Left-handed, to make her eventual sword-fighting prowess more believable to the reader... Arya is one of Martin's favorite characters (& she is one of my favorite as well). Arya has a Pivotal role to play in ASOI&F's resolution. I especially like Arya's chapters because I like to see what skill, what trade, what seemingly useless piece of information she will acquire next… Having observed the way that GRRM writes, all of the bits & pieces of the Education that she is obtaining will be essential to her future role in the resolution. Things learned at Pinto's, The Happy Port, from The Hound, or the Kindly Man Himself all provide clues as to just what her pivotal role will entail... Here are some examples: Arya's love of water is very clear, she is at home in the water… Suggesting that one day she will survive some catastrophic flood, a boat sinking, or something of this nature. Arya's time spent being blind - suggest that she will be fighting in the dark, pursued by someone at night, or stalking someone at night... She mentally recorded the directions & number of steps, door locks, etc that are required to access 'the face vault' deep under the House of Black & White… Suggesting that when/if she ever goes rouge, she will be well equipped when she departs. Her beauty & her time spent at the Happy Port suggest that she might pose as a whore at some point in the future. Arya's mutlilingility, yet thick accents, suggest that this accent might betray her at some point & her cover might be blown (that may not be the only thing blown if she is going to pose as a whore at some point, haha)… She is after all, a kid, & no one is more aware of this than GRRM, so we can look forward to Arya making some mistakes - I think that her accent might get her in trouble... I'm sure that you guys/girls can think of many, many more lessons she has learned that point toward future events... In summary, I find Arya's chapter's fascinating. It is a lot of fun watching her growing & learning. I enjoy speculating on how all these tools she is collecting will be used as the story approaches resolution... I remain confident that Arya, welding Needle, will be the person that kills Jon (because Jon will become too powerful to be allowed to live)... Also, if I had to put money on it, I would wager that Arya does not survive the series; though she will first be the instrument (or one of the instruments) through which GRRM provides resolution. Jon in Arya I, AGoT: " ... You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers." If this is foreshadowing of Arya dying in the winter, Jon dies before Arya, because they will find her, not Jon. She won't become a wight, so that threat will be gone before she dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eira Seren Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I agree wholeheartedly with JonNonRegis. If Addicted is right, it really makes Arya's storyline bittersweet. . . especially the part where she says that 'Needle was Jon Snow's smile." Which makes me hope that Addicted is wrong (sorry). Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell’s grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. She won't give up Needle because it stands not just for her past, in some abstract sense, but for herself. The Kindly Man has it right: She is Arya Stark, and she remains more powerfully defined by the elements listed above than anything she's gone through since. And her Faceless Men training, though relevant, will ultimately fall under the heading of what she can do (not who she is). Arya's time spent being blind - suggest that she will be fighting in the dark, pursued by someone at night, or stalking someone at night... She mentally recorded the directions & number of steps, door locks, etc that are required to access 'the face vault' deep under the House of Black & White… Suggesting that when/if she ever goes rouge, she will be well equipped when she departs. Her beauty & her time spent at the Happy Port suggest that she might pose as a whore at some point in the future. . . .I remain confident that Arya, welding Needle, will be the person that kills Jon (because Jon will become too powerful to be allowed to live)... These are all fascinating to me, too. Arya has also spent a lot of time in tunnels in King's Landing. If she ever makes it back North, I wonder if there will be tunnels involved? Also, the part I bolded was hilarious when I got to your next point! I love Freudian slips. If it was intentional, kudos just the same! Darn! I would need to depart when Arya is being discussed! :bang:Good luck! Hope you make it back soon. I agree, which is why I put the word "good" in quotations in my post. I did that anticipating all of the people on this board (of all places!) saying that Arya is their favorite character and "you go, girl!". She is definitely a fan favorite and one of the good guys to most readers, which is what I am having trouble fathoming. Many of my prior posts concern Craster, but you don't see me posting "You go, Craster! Give those boys to the Cold Gods like a boss!" I think that many of the posters here underestimate just how amoral Arya is. I think we might be reading with certain assumptions about death, and also revenge? Because while the series has allusions to Christianity, it also has allusions to other religions, too, ones that do not necessarily view all death as evil or all revenge as evil, either. To be clear, I'm not advocating for child soldiers. And in the larger sense, I think that Arya is having trouble determining when it is appropriate to kill for revenge and when it maybe isn't; when it is petty and when it is for a better purpose (for example, at Harrenhall, when she could have eliminated Tywin Lannister but used up her chances on more insignificant targets). I guess we'll have to see if we think Arya is receiving any education in regards to this. Which may also lead us to the bigger picture in terms of how Arya (and the Braavos connection) will play out later in the series. (Addicted will probably see where this could be heading.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 .....Similarly we have Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised... Are Azor Ahai and the PtwP the same person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 11, 2013 Author Share Posted December 11, 2013 Are Azor Ahai and the PtwP the same person? We think so, or at least we came to that conclusion the last time it was discussed. Mel of course identifies them as one and the same and Maester Aemon conspicuously doesn't contradict her. The way we read it from what we've been told of Rhaegar's monomaniac behaviour is that he read the Azor Ahai prophecies, decided that he was the one and that he must become a warrior and then it all went downhill from there. I'd reference the discussion but it moves so damn fast on here... probably in the late 60s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I think that the Azor Ahai myth is the older of the two, but ultimately I do think they are one and the same. At some point the Targaryens came to believe that they were "the chosen family" from which he would be reborn. I think that this was most likely from Daenys the Dreamer, who added the "the dragon must have three heads" thing and in effect Promised the Prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 That quote that Black Crow likes to break out from time to time about child soldiers being amoral instruments of death is about Arya. This quote is probably best applied to Vary's Little Birds… We readers know Arya's Mind & we know that she is not without morals... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 This quote is probably best applied to Vary's Little Birds… We readers know Arya's Mind & we know that she is not without morals... The quote is specifically about Arya. If we were in the head of one of the Little Birds, it would not be so black and white either. Child Soldiers are not emotionless amoral instruments of death anyway, they are those bad kids everybody new in high school turned up to 11. There is still a unique person inside, they don't lose that anymore than adult soldiers do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 ... ultimately I do think they are one and the same. ... I don't, but I can't say why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Are Azor Ahai and the PtwP the same person? I think Maester Aemon is the character who seems to both know each of these terms, and also equate them. Don't have the text right now to be sure, but I believe there is a progression of statements Aemon makes (in AFFC) that shows him identifying these two figures/prophecies as equivalents. It starts in his conversation with Mel, when he asks to "see" Stannis' flaming sword, and continues in Braavos (and I think asea) as the Maester begins to ramble, passing various tidbits of memory and information to Sam as he nears death. This quote is probably best applied to Vary's Little Birds…We readers know Arya's Mind & we know that she is not without morals... I agree that Arya is not "amoral," though I'm not sure I understand how that word is being used in this thread. I don't think we know anything at all about the moral capacity of Varys' little birds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I think Maester Aemon is the character who seems to both know each of these terms, and also equate them. Don't have the text right now to be sure, but I believe there is a progression of statements Aemon makes (in AFFC) that shows him identifying these two figures/prophecies as equivalents. It starts in his conversation with Mel, when he asks to "see" Stannis' flaming sword, and continues in Braavos (and I think asea) as the Maester begins to ramble, passing various tidbits of memory and information to Sam as he nears death. I think he doesn't state outright they're the same, but he doesn't correct Mel either (it comes up in a conversation with her and some of the brothers, including Sam). There also might be something in his monologue about dragons to Sam that is more definite, not sure. I can't look it up right now either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 That's how I remember it without looking it up. He also tells Jon to read the story of Azor Ahai in the Jade Compendium, so he is clearly familiar with both tales and has no objection to them being the same person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I think he doesn't state outright they're the same, but he doesn't correct Mel either (it comes up in a conversation with her and some of the brothers, including Sam). There also might be something in his monologue about dragons to Sam that is more definite, not sure. I can't look it up right now either. As best I recall, on the ship with Sam he opines that assuming the PtwP was necessarily male was an error, that it might be Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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