Heresy 83

[Ahri Adaran]

Of course for Arya to do the sort of killing we're talking about she'll have to make a break with the Faceless Men since they don't kill people they know. How that will happen is interesting. I expect it involves warging.

[Black Crow]

It could well turn out to be a lot simpler. We know that they sit around in conclave discussing who will take on a particular hit. If for the sake of argument there was to be a contract offered for a certain Jon Snow (which I very much doubt but that's neither here nor there), Arya would be out of the running as she knows him. Protocol presumably also requires her to stand aside and do nothing while somebody else picks up the job, and that may be the point when she makes her break with the Faceless Men, in order to warn and is necessary save him. Needle has a purpose after all.

[Black Crow]

The quote is specifically about Arya. If we were in the head of one of the Little Birds, it would not be so black and white either.

Child Soldiers are not emotionless amoral instruments of death anyway, they are those bad kids everybody new in high school turned up to 11. There is still a unique person inside, they don't lose that anymore than adult soldiers do.

I once defined this morality business as:

Immoral bahaviour: you are enjoying yourself but have a guilty conscience

Amoral behaviour: you are enjoying yourself without a guilty conscience

Moral behaviour: you are not enjoying yourself but feel good about it

[wolfmaid7]

It could well turn out to be a lot simpler. We know that they sit around in conclave discussing who will take on a particular hit. If for the sake of argument there was to be a contract offered for a certain Jon Snow (which I very much doubt but that's neither here nor there), Arya would be out of the running as she knows him. Protocol presumably also requires her to stand aside and do nothing while somebody else picks up the job, and that may be the point when she makes her break with the Faceless Men, in order to warn and is necessary save him. Needle has a purpose after all.

I agree with this , for me the fact that she still has Needle speaks volumes.I say Arya dies in Jon's arms and for the first time we'll hear Ghost howl for the breaking in Jon's heart .Sniffles

[alienarea]

I agree with this , for me the fact that she still has Needle speaks volumes.I say Arya dies in Jon's arms and for the first time we'll hear Ghost howl for the breaking in Jon's heart .Sniffles

Arya dies after Jon, look at the foreshadowing in Arya I from AGoT I posted above.

And though GRRM denies to be influenced by the boards I smell a retcon. TP&TQ opens the door for

Lyanna having died due to birthing a child with Targaryen dragon defects

which could spin a cruel joke on Rhaegar's "The dragon needs three heads".

Which might lead to Jon Snow being dead-dead.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

And though GRRM denies to be influenced by the boards I smell a retcon. TP&TQ opens the door for

Lyanna having died due to birthing a child with Targaryen dragon defects

which could spin a cruel joke on Rhaegar's "The dragon needs three heads".

Which might lead to Jon Snow being dead-dead.

Fun, but faulty logic I think. Of the known instances similar to what you describe, exactly zero have resulted in maternal death. It would be a fantastically wicked twist. I just don't see the new material making it any more likely than before.

[Mother Other]

Fun, but faulty logic I think. Of the known instances similar to what you describe, exactly zero have resulted in maternal death. It would be a fantastically wicked twist. I just don't see the new material making it any more likely than before.

I agree, awesome but unlikely. Speaking again of the malformed infants, there was one other thing that both stillborn dragon babes had in common.....Winter was comming. Just after Rhaenyra's baby was born it is mentioned that the Citadel released 300 white ravens to signal that winter had arrived. Danny gave birth to Rhaego at the end of GoT, in the prologue of ACoK the white ravens have been released we see the one that has arrived at Dragonstone. Coincidence? I think not :devil:

Edit spelling

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I agree, awesome but unlikely. Speaking again of the malformed infants, there was one other thing that both stillborn dragon babes had in common.....Winter was comming. Just after Rhaenyra's baby was born it is mentioned that the Citadel released 300 white ravens to signal that winter had arrived. Danny gave birth to Rhaego at the end of GoT, in the prologue of ACoK the white ravens have been released we see the one that has arrived at Dragonstone. Coincidence? I think not :devil:

Edit spelling

Hm. Changelings to mark the turn of the season? Interesting...

[Urrax]

Plus, Lyanna was not a Targ. This is presumably a problem for Targ women.

[wolfmaid7]

Arya dies after Jon, look at the foreshadowing in Arya I from AGoT I posted above.

And though GRRM denies to be influenced by the boards I smell a retcon. TP&TQ opens the door for

Lyanna having died due to birthing a child with Targaryen dragon defects

which could spin a cruel joke on Rhaegar's "The dragon needs three heads".

Which might lead to Jon Snow being dead-dead.

My comment was a nettled one,that of a cheesy ending want to be. But even still that quote you posted doesn't foreshadow Arya dying "before" Jon. Seeing as he's the one speaking it would be odd if he said anything pertaining to him.If anything it's foreshadowing she'll die in the winter and that's it.

I can point to a couple of scenes-including the one where Jon finds Ghost- and say Jon will outlive them all.That he will be a person who does the right thing,but will be seen as a traitor.Destined to live out countless days without family,love,or glory in service to the realms of all.

My personal belief is that Arya will die before him and he Jon will live but not the life he would have wanted.It will always be a life of sacrifice and solitude form all those he love. He is destined to be.....alone. Separate,apart singled out.

[Black Crow]

Plus, Lyanna was not a Targ. This is presumably a problem for Targ women.

:agree:

But as to Snowfyre's point about a change of season heralding changelings; if this is indeed related it may be symptomatic of a tipping point in the magic. I sggested before that perhaps certain Targaryen children are indeed born with dragon markers which fade as they grow up and perhaps fade quite quickly, but with Ice magic awakening that process is aborted and the dragons still-born. Again if so, I wouldn't see that as necessarily being an abrupt cut off, but rather the tipping point in a slow decline.

Conversely in that case the Stark children have been born as wolves because the balance has tipped in the direction of Ice

[alienarea]

Plus, Lyanna was not a Targ. This is presumably a problem for Targ women.

But didn't Elia have pregnancy issues as well?

The seed is strong,mayhaps Rhaegar's "dragonseed" is too strong?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

But didn't Elia have pregnancy issues as well?

The seed is strong,mayhaps Rhaegar's "dragonseed" is too strong?

Hehe. Reminds me of a Larry Niven short called "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex"...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It is ironic, though. Folks theorize about Rhaegar needing to look for another woman because his wife was not considered strong enough to bear any more children. So then he runs off with Lyanna, who is considered by many to have been a strong, fierce, spirited woman - and Lyanna dies on the birthing bed.

[Yield.]

:agree:

But as to Snowfyre's point about a change of season heralding changelings; if this is indeed related it may be symptomatic of a tipping point in the magic. I sggested before that perhaps certain Targaryen children are indeed born with dragon markers which fade as they grow up and perhaps fade quite quickly, but with Ice magic awakening that process is aborted and the dragons still-born. Again if so, I wouldn't see that as necessarily being an abrupt cut off, but rather the tipping point in a slow decline.

Conversely in that case the Stark children have been born as wolves because the balance has tipped in the direction of Ice

That's an interesting thought. IIRC Tyrion states in AGoT that he was born during a particularly bitter winter. His deformity was said to have caused his mother's death. As someone up thread suggested, Joanna's death began the slow decline of their house. While the tail tale points to a dragon link, the winter birth, his kindness to the Stark children, his defeat of Stannis (forcing him north) and the killing of his father rather put him into the category of being an unknowning agent of Ice.

Bloodraven did say that he had been watching the Starks for generations so it would seem that this balancing act of Ice and Fire has been a long time in coming with many a tweak here and pull there in order to achieve the set of circumstances we have at the onset of these novels.

[Le Rouge]

I just finished the Princess and the Queen. Aside the dragon-birth-thing, I found this part interesting in regard to Heresy:

The dragon was Seasmoke, his rider Ser Addam Velaryon, determined to prove that not all bastards need be turncloaks. How better to do that than by retaking Tumbleton from the Two Betrayers, whose treason had stained him? Singers say Ser Addam had flown from King's Landing to the Gods Eye, where he landed on the sacred Isle of Faces and took counsel with the Green Men. The scholar must confine himself to known fact, and what we know is that Ser Addam flew far and fast, descending on castles great and small whose lords were loyal to the queen, to piece together an army.

If we believe the Singers, than around 129 AC, there still were Green Men on the Isle of Faces and they even sort of interferred in westerosi politics.

Further, the Gods Eye was also mentioned as the grave of the dragons Vhagar and Caraxes alongside their riders Aemond and Daemon. Plus a entire Lannister-Host was fed to the fishes in the lake in the battle called the Fishfeed.

And I think (although I'm not sure if I missed something) at the end of the tale three dragons are still alive: Nettles departed on the back of Sheepstealer from Maidenpool and wasn't seen since. Silverwing, the dragon of Queen Alysanne, was still at the field near Tumbleton when the armies there dissolved. And on Dragonstone the wild dragon Cannibal must still live in the mountains.

What happened to these dragons?

[Mother Other]

That's an interesting thought. IIRC Tyrion states in AGoT that he was born during a particularly bitter winter. His deformity was said to have caused his mother's death. As someone up thread suggested, Joanna's death began the slow decline of their house. While the tail tale points to a dragon link, the winter birth, his kindness to the Stark children, his defeat of Stannis (forcing him north) and the killing of his father rather put him into the category of being an unknowning agent of Ice.

Bloodraven did say that he had been watching the Starks for generations so it would seem that this balancing act of Ice and Fire has been a long time in coming with many a tweak here and pull there in order to achieve the set of circumstances we have at the onset of these novels.

Ahh, thank you. I had forgotten that Tyrion was born in winter also

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I saw recently a suggestion that Tyrion might be Martin's version of a chimera. Biologically, this is a genetic condition for humans; apparently, one way it can happen is through the sharing of genetic material by fraternal twins. Joanna Lannister was not a Targaryen, but the stories and rumors related by Oberyn Martell in connection with Tyrion's birth resonate both with notions of chimerism (hermaphroditic) and with what we know of stillborn dragon-children (scales, tail, etc.).

To extend these connections all the way to crackpot territory... one almost wonders whether Tyrion himself was a twin. And if so, whether the two children merged in utero (Tyrion dreams of having two heads), or whether both were delivered, but one stillborn (a still-born "monster" could have inspired those rumors that Tyrion himself never justified).

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I just finished the Princess and the Queen. Aside the dragon-birth-thing, I found this part interesting in regard to Heresy:

The dragon was Seasmoke, his rider Ser Addam Velaryon, determined to prove that not all bastards need be turncloaks. How better to do that than by retaking Tumbleton from the Two Betrayers, whose treason had stained him? Singers say Ser Addam had flown from King's Landing to the Gods Eye, where he landed on the sacred Isle of Faces and took counsel with the Green Men. The scholar must confine himself to known fact, and what we know is that Ser Addam flew far and fast, descending on castles great and small whose lords were loyal to the queen, to piece together an army.

If we believe the Singers, than around 129 AC, there still were Green Men on the Isle of Faces and they even sort of interferred in westerosi politics.

Further, the Gods Eye was also mentioned as the grave of the dragons Vhagar and Caraxes alongside their riders Aemond and Daemon. Plus a entire Lannister-Host was fed to the fishes in the lake in the battle called the Fishfeed.

And I think (although I'm not sure if I missed something) at the end of the tale three dragons are still alive: Nettles departed on the back of Sheepstealer from Maidenpool and wasn't seen since. Silverwing, the dragon of Queen Alysanne, was still at the field near Tumbleton when the armies there dissolved. And on Dragonstone the wild dragon Cannibal must still live in the mountains.

What happened to these dragons?

I think you're right in your count. But I believe it was reported (by Ran, maybe) that there was one additional dragon not mentioned in TP&TQ... so the total number ends up at 4.

[Toccs]

I saw recently a suggestion that Tyrion might be Martin's version of a chimera. Biologically, this is a genetic condition for humans; apparently, one way it can happen is through the sharing of genetic material by fraternal twins. Joanna Lannister was not a Targaryen, but the stories and rumors related by Oberyn Martell in connection with Tyrion's birth resonate both with notions of chimerism (hermaphroditic) and with what we know of stillborn dragon-children (scales, tail, etc.).

To extend these connections all the way to crackpot territory... one almost wonders whether Tyrion himself was a twin. And if so, whether the two children merged in utero (Tyrion dreams of having two heads), or whether both were delivered, but one stillborn (a still-born "monster" could have inspired those rumors that Tyrion himself never justified).

I strongly disagree with the entire Aerys+Joanna=Tyrion theory. It's not nearly as well supported as R+L=J, and whereas R+L=J adds to and explains the arcs of both Ned and Jon, all this does is cheapen the Tyrion/Tywin dynamic which is central to his arc.

However the idea of Aerys being infatuated with Joanna is there in the text. Something else that is in the text is Tyrion's fascination with dragon lore. I wonder if maybe Tyrion will be Nettles 2.0 :idea: .

ETA : As in most likely not being a dragonseed, but legitmized as one anyway for convenience.