Ahri Adaran Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I think a lot of the attraction of Arya as a character is that she's never whiny. I think that the greatest sin of a character in readers eyes is self-pity, no matter what kind of terrible things is happening to them. And I say that as a big fan of Arya. What's interesting is that the Stark kids are in very parallel situations, all receiving training from evil people (the CotF are certainly not cuddly elves and then there's LF, the kindly man and apparently a bunch of cannibals). The real test comes when they have to deal with the evil of their mentors head-on and come to terms with using what they have learned. However those stories turn out, one thing I'm certain of is that they won't be "and then they used badass violence of murder all the bad guys and it was awesome!" The Others coming south for the sole purpose of handing out snow cones is more likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 If Ged shows up in the House of Black and White with half of a ring, the series is messed up beyond redemption. I see where you are going with this: that Arya will give up her priesthood to redeem herself. I don't know. Martin really likes to punish those people who kill innocents. That fits Arya at this point. She might really be found frozen at the end of the Winter with her Needle in her hand. However, it is impossible to know Arya's next direction before we know who, what, or where Izembaro is. However, I really doubt that Martin is going to have a "she's come to her senses and is now all better" moment in the series. Other authors (and movies) have already covered this ground. As I expected, most of the posters here love Arya, which I have trouble understanding, because she is the lovable little scamp would stick a knife in your guts as soon as look at you if the Kindly Man told her to do it. I don't know... if Arya ever actually makes it to the Faceless "priesthood," she might not give it up. I'm not suggesting that Arya and Arha's storylines follow the same path - actually, they sort of appear headed in opposite directions in terms of fleeing/seeking priesthood at the temple of death. Really, I was just noting that they seem to confront similar issues and questions. (There was a comment made by Tenar (fka Arha) in Tehanu that caught my attention, and seemed to sum it up pretty well. Something about the teaching that power can be achieved only through a sacrifice of the self and of others. I'll see if I can dig it up later...) BLACK CROW may be right that Arya has not had a crisis of identity - yet. But I think the seeds have been planted. I'm thinking especially of her conversation with "the one whose face bore the marks of plague." The ironic thing about Arya's story is that she hasn't been nearly the badass she wants to be - and in spite of her own determination, she'd have got herself killed several times over if not for the intervention of others. I was reading a discussion about Sansa and Arya recently, and it occurred to me that both girls were actually "damsels in distress" in need of heroes and rescue (up through ASOS, anyway). The difference is that, while Sansa has often needed rescuing from forces beyond her control (Joffrey, for example, or an angry mob intent on raping her), Arya repeatedly has had to be rescued from herself (Yoren finding her at the Sept of Baelor and sneaking her out of King's Landing; Sandor Clegane grabbing her before she rushes to her death at the Red Wedding). Anyway. I look forward to seeing what happens with Arya. But Arya's character and storyline would very much have benefited from the "5 Year Gap" that wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 And bringing this most interesting discussion back full circle (and maybe widdershins, eh Wolfmaid?): I suspect that the care taken to point up Arya's lefthandedness means it will play a significant role, but it's pointless to speculate what at this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonNonRegis Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Well, I agree that she will probably never successfully transform into "no one" or give up Needle. However, I think that she is, by far, the darkest of the "good" characters for whom the readers root in ASOIAF--far darker than many of the villains (although not Ramsay, the Qohorik, Joffrey, etc., who are at a psychopathic level of evil). I also don't see her having a sudden epiphany, deciding to devote her life to caring for small, injured animals. As for having her hair ruffled by Jon and realizing she is really needs to get in touch with her sensitive side: that could happen. Maybe there will be a battle on the Trident with dragons fighting popsicles at the end of the series as well. I wouldn't even identify her as a "good" character, or any character as a "villain," etc. She's a character, full stop. Nobody's arguing she simply needs a hug and she'll be peachy. Really, that's the point -- that the end of the day, fundamentally, she's a prepubescent kid who's been through twenty kinds of hell she never saw coming. But while she is certainly changed in fundamental ways, she's not going to become some amoral assassin, either. I find this passage much more suggestive of her character, and her future, than anything else we've been told since GoT: Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell’s grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. She won't give up Needle because it stands not just for her past, in some abstract sense, but for herself. The Kindly Man has it right: She is Arya Stark, and she remains more powerfully defined by the elements listed above than anything she's gone through since. And her Faceless Men training, though relevant, will ultimately fall under the heading of what she can do (not who she is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 I tend to agree but to bring this back to heresy, its always worth bearing in mind that this is more than just the Stark family saga, where Mom and Pop are killed and the children scattered to undergo all sorts of different trials and adventures before the survivors gather once again around the hearth to reflect on love and loss and family This is the Song of Ice and Fire in which each has a part to play. Therefore in looking at Arya its not a question of pity poor her and agonising over whether she'll turn good or bad, but rather to look at how she fits into the broader picture and by extension if her destiny lies, temporarily or otherwise, with the Faceless Men then that in turn raises questions about how and where they fit into the Song of Ice and Fire since Arya's involvement with them firmly points to their being players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I tend to agree but to bring this back to heresy, its always worth bearing in mind that this is more than just the Stark family saga, where Mom and Pop are killed and the children scattered to undergo all sorts of different trials and adventures before the survivors gather once again around the hearth to reflect on love and loss and family This is the Song of Ice and Fire in which each has a part to play. Therefore in looking at Arya its not a question of pity poor her and agonising over whether she'll turn good or bad, but rather to look at how she fits into the broader picture and by extension if her destiny lies, temporarily or otherwise, with the Faceless Men then that in turn raises questions about how and where they fit into the Song of Ice and Fire since Arya's involvement with them firmly points to their being players. :agree: They are players all right. Balon Greyjoy; the Citadel ... people we don't know about I'm sure ... and they have their roots in the fire-mines of Valyria... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 They are players all right. Balon Greyjoy; the Citadel ... people we don't know about I'm sure ... and they have their roots in the fire-mines of Valyria... I would suggest though that its not necessarily a case of them being allied with one and other, they all have their own very different agendas but what they all have in common, what binds them into the story is an alignment, pragmatic or otherwise with one side or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evita mgfs Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Darn! I would need to depart when Arya is being discussed! :bang: Dear Heretics: I will be absent for a few days. I am dealing with a lot of CRAP. :crying: I threaten to return. Before I leave with my shovel, I wish to write a few words that are sincere and heartfelt. In the past few weeks, I have met some of the most amazing people [Heretics] who are supportive, encouraging, intelligent, and gifted. Thank you for enriching my life and my understanding of Martin’s world of Ice and Fire. I am reminded that behind the Avatars are real people - bakers, caregivers, survivors, activists, artists, and much and more. How appropriate that we are behind a mask with aliases – it is soooo Martinesque. Even though no one signed up for the cookie exchange, and no one confessed to watching Khal Drogo and Khaleesi dance to “The Game of Thrones” theme music on ABC – with an appearance by the dragons and the Iron throne, and no one asked about Xanadu and where Alph the sacred river ran into a sunless sea, [into Caves of Ice], I understand [i am teasing, of course]. However, I am leaving the dancing link again for the benefit of Redriver: you may have Michael Flatley, but we have DwtS! http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x16a9zr_corbin-bleu-ku%20arina-smirnoff-viennese-waltz_people It also is a healthy way to cleanse the palate after watching Butters visiting the home of an animated George RR Martin who does the wiener dance. Argh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 New subject. (Has this been touched on before?) I wonder why the books make such a point of Arya being left-handed. And, significantly, the show does too. In the show she fences left-handed and carries Needle on the right side. Speculation at this stage is pointless, but I imagine eventually this will prove to be a significant fact. I believe that GRRM made Arya Left-handed, to make her eventual sword-fighting prowess more believable to the reader... Arya is one of Martin's favorite characters (& she is one of my favorite as well). Arya has a Pivotal role to play in ASOI&F's resolution. I especially like Arya's chapters because I like to see what skill, what trade, what seemingly useless piece of information she will acquire next… Having observed the way that GRRM writes, all of the bits & pieces of the Education that she is obtaining will be essential to her future role in the resolution. Things learned at Pinto's, The Happy Port, from The Hound, or the Kindly Man Himself all provide clues as to just what her pivotal role will entail... Here are some examples: Arya's love of water is very clear, she is at home in the water… Suggesting that one day she will survive some catastrophic flood, a boat sinking, or something of this nature. Arya's time spent being blind - suggest that she will be fighting in the dark, pursued by someone at night, or stalking someone at night... She mentally recorded the directions & number of steps, door locks, etc that are required to access 'the face vault' deep under the House of Black & White… Suggesting that when/if she ever goes rouge, she will be well equipped when she departs. Her beauty & her time spent at the Happy Port suggest that she might pose as a whore at some point in the future. Arya's mutlilingility, yet thick accents, suggest that this accent might betray her at some point & her cover might be blown (that may not be the only thing blown if she is going to pose as a whore at some point, haha)… She is after all, a kid, & no one is more aware of this than GRRM, so we can look forward to Arya making some mistakes - I think that her accent might get her in trouble... I'm sure that you guys/girls can think of many, many more lessons she has learned that point toward future events... In summary, I find Arya's chapter's fascinating. It is a lot of fun watching her growing & learning. I enjoy speculating on how all these tools she is collecting will be used as the story approaches resolution... I remain confident that Arya, welding Needle, will be the person that kills Jon (because Jon will become too powerful to be allowed to live)... Also, if I had to put money on it, I would wager that Arya does not survive the series; though she will first be the instrument (or one of the instruments) through which GRRM provides resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 Darn! I would need to depart when Arya is being discussed! :bang: Dear Heretics: I will be absent for a few days. I am dealing with a lot of CRAP. :crying: I threaten to return. Before I leave with my shovel, I wish to write a few words that are sincere and heartfelt. In the past few weeks, I have met some of the most amazing people [Heretics] who are supportive, encouraging, intelligent, and gifted. Thank you for enriching my life and my understanding of Martin’s world of Ice and Fire. I am reminded that behind the Avatars are real people - bakers, caregivers, survivors, activists, artists, and much and more. How appropriate that we are behind a mask with aliases – it is soooo Martinesque. Even though no one signed up for the cookie exchange, and no one confessed to watching Khal Drogo and Khaleesi dance to “The Game of Thrones” theme music on ABC – with an appearance by the dragons and the Iron throne, and no one asked about Xanadu and where Alph the sacred river ran into a sunless sea, [into Caves of Ice], I understand [i am teasing, of course]. However, I am leaving the dancing link again for the benefit of Redriver: you may have Michael Flatley, but we have DwtS! http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x16a9zr_corbin-bleu-ku%20arina-smirnoff-viennese-waltz_people It also is a healthy way to cleanse the palate after watching Butters visiting the home of an animated George RR Martin who does the wiener dance. Argh! Darn! I would need to depart when Arya is being discussed! :bang: Dear Heretics: I will be absent for a few days. I am dealing with a lot of CRAP. :crying: I threaten to return. Before I leave with my shovel, I wish to write a few words that are sincere and heartfelt. In the past few weeks, I have met some of the most amazing people [Heretics] who are supportive, encouraging, intelligent, and gifted. Thank you for enriching my life and my understanding of Martin’s world of Ice and Fire. I am reminded that behind the Avatars are real people - bakers, caregivers, survivors, activists, artists, and much and more. How appropriate that we are behind a mask with aliases – it is soooo Martinesque. Even though no one signed up for the cookie exchange, and no one confessed to watching Khal Drogo and Khaleesi dance to “The Game of Thrones” theme music on ABC – with an appearance by the dragons and the Iron throne, and no one asked about Xanadu and where Alph the sacred river ran into a sunless sea, [into Caves of Ice], I understand [i am teasing, of course]. However, I am leaving the dancing link again for the benefit of Redriver: you may have Michael Flatley, but we have DwtS! http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x16a9zr_corbin-bleu-ku%20arina-smirnoff-viennese-waltz_people It also is a healthy way to cleanse the palate after watching Butters visiting the home of an animated George RR Martin who does the wiener dance. Argh! You can't have a sabbatical now Evita,addicted is starting to make sense..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 10, 2013 Author Share Posted December 10, 2013 You can't have a sabbatical now Evita,addicted is starting to make sense..... I agree up to a point with AtS, differing in that I don't necessarily see her killing Jon in the end. However where we are in agreement is that Arya is not tangential to the story. She is coming home from Braavos and it won't be pretty. And that is not heresy but GRRM, saying that in Winds of Winter our characters will be back shivering in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 As has been mentioned before in Heresy, I wouldn't be surprised to see Syrio again. We don't know he was killed, he just disappeared. And of course he could be a FM himself. Braavos is a good product. Partly medieval Venice, partly Renaissance Florence (bankers, Macchiavelli, Medici). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Words Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 I tend to agree but to bring this back to heresy, its always worth bearing in mind that this is more than just the Stark family saga, where Mom and Pop are killed and the children scattered to undergo all sorts of different trials and adventures before the survivors gather once again around the hearth to reflect on love and loss and family This is the Song of Ice and Fire in which each has a part to play. Therefore in looking at Arya its not a question of pity poor her and agonising over whether she'll turn good or bad, but rather to look at how she fits into the broader picture and by extension if her destiny lies, temporarily or otherwise, with the Faceless Men then that in turn raises questions about how and where they fit into the Song of Ice and Fire since Arya's involvement with them firmly points to their being players. So much of Arya's and each main characters' story is also about their duality, their inner potential do do both good or evil and how they work their way through the process of finding who and what they are - balancing the ice and fire within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistress of Lemon Cakes Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 For me, the most interesting thing about Arya Stark is not what she has already learned, but what she still has yet to learn, and what might possibly be her greatest lesson in life. Arya needs to learn her limitations. There have been so many times when Arya seems to triumph in spite of the odds. She is very full of herself at times, and she had been very fortuitous in situations where she has been straight up lucky. I just reread the section where she meets the Brotherhood for the first time and had she run into any other group of bandits or soldiers, drawing her sword as brazenly as she did with them would have gotten her killed immediately. My favorite parts with Arya are when she realizes she’s not nearly as good as she thinks she is, which is fitting for a child. “The archer’s hand moved quicker than Arya would have believed. His shaft went hissing past her head within an inch of her ear and buried itself in the trunk of the willow behind her. By then the bowman had a second arrow notched and drawn. She’d thought she understood what Syrio meant by quick as a snake and smooth as summer silk, but now she knew she hadn’t.” I find I am constantly debating with friends over who is the stronger character: Arya or Sansa … for this reason. Everyone is cheering on Arya to kill all the Freys (in regards to the show), but the reality is that Arya is not ready for such a thing. And do we really want her going down that path anyway? It’s a very dark path. We know, because we’ve already had a glimpse of it because we’ve read the books. Once Arya fully understands her limitations and comes to terms with her identity, she will absolutely be a force to be reckoned with. As to the FM: Arya has thus far been contracted to kill people who seem deserving of that death. I think it’ll be interesting to see what she’ll do if she’s contracted to kill someone who is not deserving. The FM are not supposed to judge their victims and I don’t think Arya has the ability to be so indiscriminate. Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking. Evita: I will sincerely miss all your very thoughtful and insiteful theories while you're gone. Good luck with whatever's going on out there in the "real world." :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konradsmith Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I hate to be the guy that brings up the TV show but while we speak about Arya, its interesting that this season had two instances of "Death" being mentioned as a religious figure. When asked who her one true god is (in a scene writ by GrrM mind you) she says, "Death". And in ep. 10, Melisandre says "Death marches on the Wall, only you can stop him". The show has not yet said "the Great Other" nor "the Many-Faced God". If they use Death to refer to both, then wouldn't that infer a connection that some of us have observed in the books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistress of Lemon Cakes Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I think there could definitely be a connection, which is why I always found it kind eery that Arya's list is getting shorter and shorter with little of her own intervention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Darn! I would need to depart when Arya is being discussed! :bang: Dear Heretics: I will be absent for a few days. I am dealing with a lot of CRAP. :crying: I threaten to return. Before I leave with my shovel, I wish to write a few words that are sincere and heartfelt. In the past few weeks, I have met some of the most amazing people [Heretics] who are supportive, encouraging, intelligent, and gifted. Thank you for enriching my life and my understanding of Martins world of Ice and Fire. I am reminded that behind the Avatars are real people - bakers, caregivers, survivors, activists, artists, and much and more. How appropriate that we are behind a mask with aliases it is soooo Martinesque. Even though no one signed up for the cookie exchange, and no one confessed to watching Khal Drogo and Khaleesi dance to The Game of Thrones theme music on ABC with an appearance by the dragons and the Iron throne, and no one asked about Xanadu and where Alph the sacred river ran into a sunless sea, [into Caves of Ice], I understand [i am teasing, of course]. However, I am leaving the dancing link again for the benefit of Redriver: you may have Michael Flatley, but we have DwtS! http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x16a9zr_corbin-bleu-ku%20arina-smirnoff-viennese-waltz_people It also is a healthy way to cleanse the palate after watching Butters visiting the home of an animated George RR Martin who does the wiener dance. Argh!Hope everything sorts out, Evita. And I loved the Kubla Khan reference, by the way - wouldn't have noticed that without your pointer, but it made me dig up some Coleridge. Thanks for that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I hate to be the guy that brings up the TV show but while we speak about Arya, its interesting that this season had two instances of "Death" being mentioned as a religious figure. When asked who her one true god is (in a scene writ by GrrM mind you) she says, "Death". And in ep. 10, Melisandre says "Death marches on the Wall, only you can stop him". The show has not yet said "the Great Other" nor "the Many-Faced God". If they use Death to refer to both, then wouldn't that infer a connection that some of us have observed in the books? Drop "The Stranger" in that and we may have the personification of Death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I wouldn't even identify her as a "good" character, or any character as a "villain," etc. She's a character, full stop. I agree, which is why I put the word "good" in quotations in my post. I did that anticipating all of the people on this board (of all places!) saying that Arya is their favorite character and "you go, girl!". She is definitely a fan favorite and one of the good guys to most readers, which is what I am having trouble fathoming. Many of my prior posts concern Craster, but you don't see me posting "You go, Craster! Give those boys to the Cold Gods like a boss!" I think that many of the posters here underestimate just how amoral Arya is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Frye Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 But while she is certainly changed in fundamental ways, she's not going to become some amoral assassin, either. There's this merchant outside from Braavos with a coin in his mouth, who would like to discuss this point with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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