Why does house Stark have the smallest army in the north?

[Ahura Mazda]

I agree with those people saying there is an inconsistency.

Those saying that the numbers are explained by the existence of a Feudal System are partially incorrect. The Lord of Winterfell - previous King in the North - is the Lord Paramount of the North (or whatever was the name IT gave him) and as such he can raise the banners of all the other lords in the north. What this evaluation is missing out is that the Lord of Winterfell is still Lord of a large rural area, so it MUST have a feudal system within its own lands too formed by minor lords obliged to the Starks.

The fact that Stark's lands are roughly the same as Bolton's and Karstark's but the number of men raised isn't is a clue that something is not right out there. Unless there are deep reasons that make Winterfell lands inhospitable, the number of men raised don't look correct. Even the fact that Starks have managed to maintain their leadership for thousands of years is an indication that they must have direct access to a larger army than that. Otherwise it is unclear why so many lords would bend the knee to the "weakest" one..surely Starks weren't always loved, some of them must have been despicable leaders.. every family gives birth to such, not only Lannister's one.

Calling for the banners within Winterfell Lands probably requires messengers to ride with their own horse, because it is unlikely there are ravens enough to cover all small lords under Winterfell direct guidance.. Robb might have not thought of raising them though he had surely enough time to do it anyway, since leaders from far away had enough time to join him.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I agree with those people saying there is an inconsistency.

Those saying that the numbers are explained by the existence of a Feudal System are partially incorrect. The Lord of Winterfell - previous King in the North - is the Lord Paramount of the North (or whatever was the name IT gave him) and as such he can raise the banners of all the other lords in the north. What this evaluation is missing out is that the Lord of Winterfell is still Lord of a large rural area, so it MUST have a feudal system within its own lands too formed by minor lords obliged to the Starks.

The fact that Stark's lands are roughly the same as Bolton's and Karstark's but the number of men raised isn't is a clue that something is not right out there. Unless there are deep reasons that make Winterfell lands inhospitable, the number of men raised don't look correct. Even the fact that Starks have managed to maintain their leadership for thousands of years is an indication that they must have direct access to a larger army than that. Otherwise it is unclear why so many lords would bend the knee to the "weakest" one..surely Starks weren't always loved, some of them must have been despicable leaders.. every family gives birth to such, not only Lannister's one.

Calling for the banners within Winterfell Lands probably requires messengers to ride with their own horse, because it is unlikely there are ravens enough to cover all small lords under Winterfell direct guidance.. Robb might have not thought of raising them though he had surely enough time to do it anyway, since leaders from far away had enough time to join him.

The same principle applies to each of the Banner Lords. Winterfell can send a raven to Karhold, but Karhold don't have ravens to go to every one of their petty lords and masterly houses. They too have to send riders out, and this over very inhospitible forest terrain in the cold North.

So it takes the same amount of time for Lord Umber to gather his petty lords to him, and for lord Karstark or Bolton to gather his petty lords to him, than it would take Robb to gather Winterfell's petty lords together. And since Winterfell's own petty lords don't have to march a fraction of the distance that the Karstarks or Umbers have to march, they would be gathered together months before any Umbers or Karstarks arrived at Winterfell.

So given Robb's extreme haste, the Winterfell forces should have been the first ones he gathered.

[joluoto2]

GRRM isn't good with numbers /thread

[Ahura Mazda]

So given Robb's extreme haste, the Winterfell forces should have been the first ones he gathered.

Indeed, that's why I suggested Robb overlooked that.

[the andorran]

Never trust an author with numbers.

[Darksnider05]

The North really isn't set up properly it should have a million plus population but it doesn't. Even ten year and longer winters don't explain why it doesn't.

[The Holy Goat]

Personally I find it hard to believe that the Starks can't raise more men than anyone else. They have ruled the North for a long time and are very influential, and looking at the map and taking into account the location of all major houses it seems to me like they rule over quite an extensive area.

And most importanly, we know quite little of the composition of Robb's Army and how they joined his army.

12,000 men were gathered at Winterfell. Among these we know there were at least 2,300 Karstarks. We also know that Glover, Tallhart, Bolton, Umber, Hornwood, Cerwyn, probably Norrey and, of course, Stark men were present. However, we don't know how many men each sent. And if some, like Bolton, Hornwood, Cerwyn and Tallhart had arranged for part of their forces to join Robb on the march south, then it throws all of our calculations on end.

We know more men joined the army as they moved south however: these probably consisted of the 1,500 Manderly, as well as Flints of Widow's Watch, Flints of Flints Finger, Dustin, Ryswell, Locke. Amon these it seems like Manderly were the only ones who sent a subtantial force, but they alone don't contribute the 6,000 men that boosted Robb's army. This suggest to me that, men belonging to the Lords who had already gathered at Winterfell might've joined the host. This gives Robb a force of 18,000 men, but later when they reached the Twins Theon suggested that their army were five times the size of Walder Frey's (4,000). This might've just been Theon rounding 18,000 into 20,000, but it's possible that stragglers out of the North caught up with Robb's host and joined him.

Either way, calculating how many forces each house has and how many they sent south is very difficult. I personally believe that the Starks probably sent as many as house Bolton, but that most died in the south. And then some more died in the North. But I also believe they could possibly recruit more if they wanted to.

The North really isn't set up properly it should have a million plus population but it doesn't. Even ten year and longer winters don't explain why it doesn't.

It seems very likely that each region of Westeros as a pupuulation of several million, possibly barring the Iron Islands and the Land Beyond the Wall, which probably have to settle on just having one million or so each. The Reach and the North though? Likely have populations ranging in the millions, close to the ten millions probably, at least the Reach.

[Mithras]

When the snow fell and the ice winds howled down out of the north, Old Nan said, farmers left their frozen fields and distant holdfasts, loaded up their wagons, and then the winter town came alive.

Starks dont need a great army to sustain their power. They are Kings of Winter, in other words they are the Kings in the winter. People have to take shelter in Winterfell during winters. Winds of winter coming howling are several times associated with the wrath of old Stark Kings.

The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes.

[David C. Hunter]

When the snow fell and the ice winds howled down out of the north, Old Nan said, farmers left their frozen fields and distant holdfasts, loaded up their wagons, and then the winter town came alive.

Starks dont need a great army to sustain their power. They are Kings of Winter, in other words they are the Kings in the winter. People have to take shelter in Winterfell during winters. Winds of winter coming howling are several times associated with the wrath of old Stark Kings.

The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes.

I was actually going to say this myself. The Starks are the Kings of Winter. They didn't conquer the North by having the largest armies, they conquered them because 1.) They seem to have Winter on their side 2.) They were Skin Changers 3.) They seem to have a much harsher culture in days gone by and seemed to be feared a hell of a lot more.

It wasn't like Stark Kings were infallible. The Boltons gave them hell, the Skagosi gave them hell, the Iron Islanders gave them hell, the Kings Beyond the Wall gave them hell, the Slavers from the East gave them hell, the Arryns gave themm hell, the Crannogmen gave them hell, you they always survived, they always endured. That is why they are called "Stark" to begin with. Because in all those situations, it was the Winter that helped the Starks defeat there enemies, in much the same way the Dragons helped the Targs counquer the summer Kingdoms.

e.g. Brandon "Ice Eyes" Stark

This is why the Starks control the vast North even though they may have the smaller lands or least people. It is tradition at this point and to be honest, the Starks are synonymous with the North. Of course they had awful Kings, but if you asked the other northern if they had the power to, would they try and conquer winterfell, probably only the Boltons would say yes, just out of a sign of respect. The Northern Lords may not always like the Stark King, but they always seem to have a deep respect for their liege lord in general. Sacrficing your entrails onto heart trees also solidified the fear.

They same can be said for other territories.

1.) The Tullys are the liege lords of the Trident, but the Freys, Mallisters, and Blackwoods seem to be more "powerful" in a sense. Why should the Freys bend the kneee ever to Riverrun?

2.) The Tyrells are the liege lords of the Reach, but seriously the Redwynes have the fleet, and the Tarls/Highowers are probably both more powerful than the Tyrells IMO.

3.) The Martells are the liege lords of Dorne, but they seriously seem to fear the other houses such as Yronwood.

Other than the Lannisters, one could make a case that all the kingdoms should always be dealing with uprisings on their own territories

[Faceless Sam]

I don't give credence to some randomer giving an estimate of this or that army size.

But when Maester Luwin tells Bran the number of Karstarks that just arrived, down to the closest hundred men (2300), and when Robb tells Catelyn he has 18,000 men in his army, then these are sources to be believed. Particularly when the number is corroborated again and again later in the story.

the thing is, this is a novel written by man named george martin and this man doesnt put a whole lot of thought into things like army strenght and population size.

he just puts some number out there that does look kind of like it makes sense at first glance and that's it.

asking why this or that number doesnt add up and expecting an answer other than "the author made a mistake because he cant be arsed about such details" is pretty moot.

[The hairy bear]

this is a very serious matter. In the 12,000 man host at winterfell bolton has 3500 men, karstark 2300, manderly 1500. umber, hornwood, cerwyn, flint, ryswell, dustin altogether should've brought at least 4000 men with them. If glover and talhart brought 700 men, which is ridiculous, then the levy of house stark would be 1200 men( added to 600 at winterfell).

You use many incorrect assumptions here:

• The 12,000 men that reunite in Winterfell do not include any Manderly, and most likely due to the geography, any Flint, Ryswell, Dustin or Tallhart. We only know for sure it includes 2,300 Karstarks.

You take the 3,500 figure for the Boltons from a quote in ASOS that also includes Karstark men: "Some five hundred horse and three thousand foot, my lady. Dreadfort men, in chief, and some from Karhold. With the loyalty of the Karstarks so doubtful now, I thought it best to keep them close." Given that Bolton had all the Karstark foot transfered to his army, and originally they were 2,000 men, there's reason to believe a very significant part of those 3,500 are Karstarks.

The two masterly houses, Tallhart and Glover, already had 200 men stationed in Moat Cailin after Ned's order in AGOT. I don't find ridiculous at all that they are not able to summon more that an additional 500 men, compared to what great lords like the Karstarks or Manderlys bring.

According to the actual data:

Meeting at Winterfell: 12,000, including 2,300 Karstarks.

Meeting at the Neck: 18,000, including 2,300 Karstarks and 1,500 Manderlys.

They arrive at the Twins: 20,000, including 2,300 Karstarks, and 1,500 Manderlys.

The Freys join Robb: 24,000, including 2,300 Karstarks, 1,500 Manderlys, and 4,000 Freys.

Everything else it's open to speculation. But if you want to make the Stark force the biggest one, I think that's easy to arrange. Let's say that at Winterfel there were 2,300 Karstarks, 2,500 Boltons, 1,600 Umbers, 1,000 Hornwoods, 800 Cerwyns, and 800 Glovers. That still leaves room for a 3,000 Stark army.

[joluoto2]

It seems very likely that each region of Westeros as a pupuulation of several million, possibly barring the Iron Islands and the Land Beyond the Wall, which probably have to settle on just having one million or so each. The Reach and the North though? Likely have populations ranging in the millions, close to the ten millions probably, at least the Reach.

I can't see a functioning feudal society with such large population. And a Continent with very few cities won't have population that can be counted in millions. Basically George made Westeros too populous for the kind of society he want.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

You use many incorrect assumptions here:

• The 12,000 men that reunite in Winterfell do not include any Manderly, and most likely due to the geography, any Flint, Ryswell, Dustin or Tallhart. We only know for sure it includes 2,300 Karstarks.

You take the 3,500 figure for the Boltons from a quote in ASOS that also includes Karstark men: "Some five hundred horse and three thousand foot, my lady. Dreadfort men, in chief, and some from Karhold. With the loyalty of the Karstarks so doubtful now, I thought it best to keep them close." Given that Bolton had all the Karstark foot transfered to his army, and originally they were 2,000 men, there's reason to believe a very significant part of those 3,500 are Karstarks.

The two masterly houses, Tallhart and Glover, already had 200 men stationed in Moat Cailin after Ned's order in AGOT. I don't find ridiculous at all that they are not able to summon more that an additional 500 men, compared to what great lords like the Karstarks or Manderlys bring.

According to the actual data:

Meeting at Winterfell: 12,000, including 2,300 Karstarks.

Meeting at the Neck: 18,000, including 2,300 Karstarks and 1,500 Manderlys.

They arrive at the Twins: 20,000, including 2,300 Karstarks, and 1,500 Manderlys.

The Freys join Robb: 24,000, including 2,300 Karstarks, 1,500 Manderlys, and 4,000 Freys.

Everything else it's open to speculation. But if you want to make the Stark force the biggest one, I think that's easy to arrange. Let's say that at Winterfel there were 2,300 Karstarks, 2,500 Boltons, 1,600 Umbers, 1,000 Hornwoods, 800 Cerwyns, and 800 Glovers. That still leaves room for a 3,000 Stark army.

Makes sense.

I can't see a functioning feudal society with such large population. And a Continent with very few cities won't have population that can be counted in millions. Basically George made Westeros too populous for the kind of society he want.

Medieval France is believed to have had 15-20 million inhabitants prior to the black death, and was a feudal society.

[The Holy Goat]

I can't see a functioning feudal society with such large population. And a Continent with very few cities won't have population that can be counted in millions. Basically George made Westeros too populous for the kind of society he want.

You can't see a functioning feudal society with such a large population? Even though medieval France had a population of 14 to 20 million people? While Europe on the whole had a population of 75 million? And Westeros is the size of South America, therefore twice the size of Europe?

Also regarding large cities: Medieval Europe had four cities with populations over 100,000 in it's Golden Age, as far as I recall. Paris, Milano, Venice and Napoli were the four, with Paris being the biggest at 250,000 in the year 1328. All this while Europe had a population of 75 million. "A continent with very few cities won't have a population that can be counted in millions" my ass. This wasn't like modern times, where 90% live in an urban area. Back in the middle ages it was the opposite: 90% of the population in lived rural areas instead.

Compare Europe to Westeros with it's Five large cities and their (estimated) populations King's Landing (500,000), Oldtown (400,000), Lannisport (300,000), Gulltown (200,000) White Harbor (100,000). Not to mention all the towns spread out over the Continent, many I believe to have populations in the thousands, some who's not far of: The Wintertown of Winterfell, Barrowton, Lordsport, Pebbleton (7,000), Seagard, Fairmarket, Stony Sept, Lord Harroway's Town, Saltpans, Maidenpool, Sisterton, Duskendale, Rosby, Ashford, Lord Hewett's Town, Sunspear.

Westeros is probably not as densely populated as Europe was, but it's also twice the size and a similar population is far from impossible IMO. The Large armies refelcts this.

[Free Northman Reborn]

45 million people gives Westeros a population density of around 15 people per square mile, compared to Medieval Scotland's 20, England's 40 and France's 60+.

[Free Northman Reborn]

45 million people gives Westeros a population density of around 15 people per square mile, compared to Medieval Scotland's 20, England's 40 and France's 60+.

[E-Ro]

Yeah, hate to break this to some of you but population density and the size of ones land means FUCK ALL when it comes to the amount of troops an area can raise. What matters is money, and food. Money to arm, armor, and train the men and food to feed them. Do you honestly think if robb just rounded up as many random guys as he could he would have had nearly the same level of success that he had? No, he would have gotten his ass kicked as his untrained levies ran the second the first round of arrows fell. You can have a very low population density and still have a huge army, you would just use your cash to hire sellswords or keep more men on retainer.

For this reason, the house in the north that should have the most men is the manderlys. They have the most money. Of course, this changes over time, and fluctuates. When the Starks first took the north they may have been better off, or they used skinchanging magic to help them or a combination of both.

So the fact that robb didnt bring as many men as his bannermen is not a big deal, nor is it a mistake.

[Darth Visenya]

Yeah, hate to break this to some of you but population density and the size of ones land means FUCK ALL when it comes to the amount of troops an area can raise. What matters is money, and food. Money to arm, armor, and train the men and food to feed them. Do you honestly think if robb just rounded up as many random guys as he could he would have had nearly the same level of success that he had? No, he would have gotten his ass kicked as his untrained levies ran the second the first round of arrows fell. You can have a very low population density and still have a huge army, you would just use your cash to hire sellswords or keep more men on retainer.

For this reason, the house in the north that should have the most men is the manderlys. They have the most money. Of course, this changes over time, and fluctuates. When the Starks first took the north they may have been better off, or they used skinchanging magic to help them or a combination of both.

So the fact that robb didnt bring as many men as his bannermen is not a big deal, nor is it a mistake.

Greetings E-Rizzle :).

[E-Ro]

Greetings E-Rizzle :).

lol, hi.

Getting more into my previous point, there is a reason the lannisters have such a huge army. And there is a reason the tyrells are hands down the greatest at gathering large sums of men extremely quickly. The fact of the matter is that medieval armies simply could not sustain armies that were too big, population size or no they are constrained by food and cash. Foraging for food gets exponentially more difficult the more men you pack into an army, and no one wants to waste food on untrained men that wont be of much help in a fight. So we need to separate this whole "population size= army size" the 20,000 men robb brings south is NOT indicative of the norths population(which most likely numbers in the millions)

[Darth Visenya]

lol, hi.

Sorry I just wanted to call you that :P, I don't have anything productive to add to the thread.