Why does house Stark have the smallest army in the north?

[The Black Prince]

Y'all should play Crusader Kings 2.

[E-Ro]

Real history is full of examples of kings poorer than their vassals, sovereigns that had the formal titles but no real power to back the collecting of taxes, or overlords that were chosen as a consensus to act as arbiters due to their prestige and not their strength.

If you find some info from the novels that contradicts your preconceived notion of how Westeros or the North should be, perhaps you should challenge your preconceptions, instead of accusing the author of erring

I fully agree. This thread seems to be a debate between people who understand real life history and those who don't.

It's really not shocking at all that some of the lords in the north might be wealthier then the Starks.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Please be so kind as to provide the quote where this is stated in the books?

Please do the same supporting your opposing view.

As to the Wolfswood, every house we learn that resides within it are sworn to House Glover as per the wiki. No minor house within the Wolfswood is said to be sworn directly to Winterfell. Feel free to look at the Wolfswood page and confirm for yourself, which supposedly takes its info from an Asha chapter in ADwD.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Please do the same supporting your opposing view.

As to the Wolfswood, every house we learn that resides within it are sworn to House Glover as per the wiki. No minor house within the Wolfswood is said to be sworn directly to Winterfell. Feel free to look at the Wolfswood page and confirm for yourself, which supposedly takes its info from an Asha chapter in ADwD.

That's your evidence?

So we have the example of 3 or so minor Wolfswood houses sworn to the Glovers. Which is utterly logical, given that their domain edges on the Wolfswood, and covers a significant part of said Wood. But so does the domain of the Starks.

We just have not been informed who the petty lords are that live within 150 miles of Winterfell yet. We only know the names of a fraction of the Houses in the North, let alone in the entire Westeros. We don't know the names of the dozen petty lords sworn to White Harbor either, but we know they exist.

That is not evidence. That is just making the (very) limited information fit your view.

[GallowsKnight]

And everyone is forgetting the Glovers (and Tallharts) are masters not even lords. They are essentally Winterfells men. Ned has Catelyn order them to reinforce the moat not any closer lord.

[The hairy bear]

In all probability, the Starks have domain lands all over the North. Large medieval landholdings were rarely contiguous.

Great point too.

Why on earth would a Wolfswood crofter 3 days ride from Winterfell fall under the rule of Deepwood Motte, located two weeks ride away?

Winterfell likely directly rules the entire central region between the Mountain Clans to the Northwest, the Boltons to the Northeast, the Hornwoods to the East, the Manderlys to the Southeast, the Dustins to the South, the Tallharts to the Southwest and the Glovers to the West.

A 300 mile diameter zone that is closer to Winterfell than to any of these other major strongholds. And with major natural barriers in many places.

Take a look at this map of the Holy Roman Empire in 1273.

The imperial family, the Habsburgs, owned the parts marked in orange. As you can see, is much smaller than the lands of houses Wittlebach and Luxemburg.

If you see where the Habsburg castle is located, you'll see how little contiguous land they had surrounding their original "capital". Basel wasn't ruled by them, and it's only 60 km / 40 miles away. Much less than the three days ride that you mention.

[Lord Warwyck]

And everyone is forgetting the Glovers (and Tallharts) are masters not even lords. They are essentally Winterfells men. Ned has Catelyn order them to reinforce the moat not any closer lord.

That's right, this is why lord umber pisses at being ordered to follow glover. Glovers are trusted knightly house that has given command of a strategic castle.

The glovers and tallharts are masters not lords, slightly elevated landed knights sworn to winterfell. Furthermore east of the white knife there is a large stretch of open plain and possibly fertile land that no other major lord seems to hold, so we can assume that that land is full of petty lords and knights sworn to winterfell.

[Lord Warwyck]

I fully agree. This thread seems to be a debate between people who understand real life history and those who don't.

It's really not shocking at all that some of the lords in the north might be wealthier then the Starks.

The Starks where not always kings. They had to defeat other houses and defeat the bolton kings. At that point they didn't have the entire north as sworn bannermen, that came later.

They made lordships like Manderly, karstark and mormont.

If house stark had no significant army of its own and was relied on bannermen they would've pushed around, ignored and even bullied by their vassals as french kings were at one point. But we don't hear or see starks being bullied any time do we?

History is full of kings weaker than their vassals but history also shows that most of these kings were overthrown by their vassals: Richard the 2nd, henry the 6th, charles the mad....

[Usrnmhsnomning]

That's your evidence?

As opposed to your evidence of foot-stomping and accusing the author of making errors?

So we have the example of 3 or so minor Wolfswood houses sworn to the Glovers. Which is utterly logical, given that their domain edges on the Wolfswood, and covers a significant part of said Wood. But so does the domain of the Starks.

Yeah, but at no point in the story are minor houses of the Wolfswood said to be sworn to the Starks instead. So instead of smashing your head on a wall and insisting there must be minor houses around Winterfell, why don't you accept that there bloody well isn't and that's why you can't prove it.

[Free Northman Reborn]

As opposed to your evidence of foot-stomping and accusing the author of making errors?

Yeah, but at no point in the story are minor houses of the Wolfswood said to be sworn to the Starks instead. So instead of smashing your head on a wall and insisting there must be minor houses around Winterfell, why don't you accept that there bloody well isn't and that's why you can't prove it.

The Dustins' closest petty lords are located all of 1 mile from Barrow Hall itself. It is House Stout. Before Dance with Dragons, we did not even know they existed. Their keep is right next to Barrowton's perimeter wall.

And yet you would have us believe that there are no petty lords for 150 miles around Winterfell. It's just "empty land".

Make a better effort, man.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

The Dustins' closest petty lords are located all of 1 mile from Barrow Hall itself. It is House Stout. Before Dance with Dragons, we did not even know they existed. Their keep is right next to Barrowton's perimeter wall.

And yet you would have us believe that there are no petty lords for 150 miles around Winterfell. It's just "empty land".

Make a better effort, man.

Yes, it's empty land. Can you prove otherwise? No. Deal with it.

[Mr Fixit]

Take a look at this map of the Holy Roman Empire in 1273.

The imperial family, the Habsburgs, owned the parts marked in orange. As you can see, is much smaller than the lands of houses Wittlebach and Luxemburg.

If you see where the Habsburg castle is located, you'll see how little contiguous land they had surrounding their original "capital". Basel wasn't ruled by them, and it's only 60 km / 40 miles away. Much less than the three days ride that you mention.

A great map, quite illuminating.

Though, to be honest, medieval and early modern Germany was an interesting case of feudalism running utterly amok with hundreds of lords and church prelates ruling over thousands of domains that were rarely contiguous. Over them ruled a very weak Emperor who was often engaged in a back and forth power struggle with his vassals, who were pretty much independent in all but name much of the time.

Westeros' brand of feudalism does appear to be simpler and more clear-cut with individual Westerosi kingdoms seemingly quite a bit more centralised. Their inheritance customs also seem to function somewhat differently, i.e. the inheritance doesn't usually lead to acquiring new territories and adding them to the existing domain of a lord. That is what was responsible for those crazy medieval maps like the one you linked to. In Westeros, and there is a supporting SSM somewhere, such new acquisitions usually go to a younger son forming a cadet branch with individual boundaries staying the same.

That's why I believe that, while some non-contiguous lands certainly exist, they are probably nowhere near as present as in our history.

[The Holy Goat]

The Dustins' closest petty lords are located all of 1 mile from Barrow Hall itself. It is House Stout. Before Dance with Dragons, we did not even know they existed. Their keep is right next to Barrowton's perimeter wall.

And yet you would have us believe that there are no petty lords for 150 miles around Winterfell. It's just "empty land".

Make a better effort, man.

Technically, we knew of Stouts since ASOS at least... that's all... sneaking away now...

[Colonel Green]

That's why I believe that, while some non-contiguous lands certainly exist, they are probably nowhere near as present as in our history.

The only clear instance of non-contiguous landholdings in ASOIAF that I can think of is in the Vale, the lands sworn to Runestone. Runestone is on (and, I suspect, dominates) the little peninsula where Gulltown is located (though, somewhat oddly, not Gulltown itself), but Lord Royce's bannermen include the Coldwaters of Coldwater Burn, which is located completely on the other side of the Vale.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Technically, we knew of Stouts since ASOS at least... that's all... sneaking away now...

I'm aware we heard the name of Ser Ronnel Stout I think it was, but we had no idea where their keep was located, or what type of lordship he related to.

[GallowsKnight]

On top of Tallhart and Glover (and everyone sworn to them). We've likely seen petty-lords/landed knight/masters in house Poole, Cassel and Mollen who swear directly to Winterfell.

I always speculated that perhaps house Cerwyn is relatively new, given how close it is to Winterfell. That perhaps they were landed masters like Glover and Tallhart that were rewarded with Lordship.

At certain points the Stark's would also have closer ties to Karhold and the Wolf's Den when the Greystarks were loyal.

[Free Northman Reborn]

On top of Tallhart and Glover (and everyone sworn to them). We've likely seen petty-lords/landed knight/masters in house Poole, Cassel and Mollen who swear directly to Winterfell.

I always speculated that perhaps house Cerwyn is relatively new, given how close it is to Winterfell. That perhaps they were landed masters like Glover and Tallhart that were rewarded with Lordship.

At certain points the Stark's would also have closer ties to Karhold and the Wolf's Den when the Greystarks were loyal.

Yes, House Cerwyn is a very interesting case. I am sure there is quite a story behind them. Maybe Ran will fill us in a bit in the Worldbook.

They are just half a day's ride from Winterfell. Given that we are talking about fairly flat, well travelled land with decent roads around Winterfell, and that we are talking about riders on good horses, we can probably estimate the distance between Winterfell and Castle Cerwyn at around 30 miles.

This compares to Stannis's army in Dance which started leaving the Glover lands behind after 2 days of marching. I believe the distance per day was even given to us for the first few days, but at an average of around 15-20 miles a day at that point, we are probably talking about around 40 miles from Deepwood Motte to the edge of the Glover lands.

However, then we see House Stout which is located a mere 1 mile from Lady Dustin's keep.

In any case, the Cerwyns are a noble house, not a mere petty lordship. My theory would be that they are ancient allies of the Starks, or else they were former castellans of the Kings of Winter who were given a castle close to Winterfell to manage much of the Starks affairs on their behalf.

Just a thought on the Glovers. They are referred to as lords in the books. So I am not sure where the Wiki gets its info from that they are a mere Masterly House. It would also seem weird to me that Lord Glover could demand command of Robb's vanguard above powerful lords like the the Greatjon Umber, Roose Bolton or Rickard Karstark if he was clearly of a lower rank than them. And yet that is exactly what he does in Book 1.

So I would really be interested in more info on the Glovers.

[GallowsKnight]

Just a thought on the Glovers. They are referred to as lords in the books. So I am not sure where the Wiki gets its info from that they are a mere Masterly House. It would also seem weird to me that Lord Glover could demand command of Robb's vanguard above powerful lords like the the Greatjon Umber, Roose Bolton or Rickard Karstark if he was clearly of a lower rank than them. And yet that is exactly what he does in Book 1.

So I would really be interested in more info on the Glovers.

Lord seems to be the polite title, even though they might not have the powers of a lord. I can't actually remember where it's said they're masterly.

I imagine Robb think he could given Glover the command because he's a Stark-man, much like how Rodrik Cassel has such an important role in the North after Robb goes south, despite his less high birth. Catelyn thinks it would be acceptable for Hal Mollen to command his army and he is even less important than Glover.

It would be different if he'd suggested say Stout. That would be more of an insult.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Lord seems to be the polite title, even though they might not have the powers of a lord. I can't actually remember where it's said they're masterly.

I imagine Robb think he could given Glover the command because he's a Stark-man, much like how Rodrik Cassel has such an important role in the North after Robb goes south, despite his less high birth. Catelyn thinks it would be acceptable for Hal Mollen to command his army and he is even less important than Glover.

It would be different if he'd suggested say Stout. That would be more of an insult.

Fair point. I can confirm that I never read in any of my multiple rereads of the books that the Glovers were referred to as a Masterly House. I am fairly sure it is never stated in the books.

But I also know Ran has some limited access to non-book information regarding the various Houses, petty lords etc. So if he updated the Wiki with the Masterly House info, I am inclined to believe that it is a fact.

It still seems interesting, though.

[Pecan]

Where is it that the Glovers are addressed as Lords? To be honest, I always assumed they were lords until someone on here on another thread pointed out that they weren't.

I have this idea in my head that the Glovers, Tallharts, and Cerwyns are sort of like the chief Lieutenants of House Stark, tied much more closely to House Stark than bannermen such as the Umbers, Boltons, Manderlys, and Karstarks.

Also, it's kind of interesting that most of the strong Lordly houses in the north are located east of the Kingsroad, whereas west of the Kingsroad it seems like much more of a frontier wilderness.