What I find strange about Lady's sacrifice

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

There is no way in hell that Robert Baratheon would have harmed Ned's daughter for hitting his son, who he doesn't even like and can't in his heart of hearts even believe is his own--which of course, LOL, he isn't. That was never even on the table in my opinion.

Cersei Cersei Cersei. With on lookers I believe Ned was afraid she could have forced his hand. Also, keep in mind the psychology behind it. Ned knew Robert well, but the Robert that arrived in Winterfell was not the same man he knew. I don't think he could have accurately guessed his position. Also his fear is evident, looking for friendly faces and seeing none. I think that's why he made Sansa deny deny deny.

When she's with Margery in HG Sansa is using a Peregrine Falcon for hawking, can't remember the chapter.

Oh yeah! I completely forgot about that!

[Cas Stark]

I don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't Arya give her side of the story, Joff gives his side, Robert throws up his hands and then Ned calls for Sansa...wouldn't the expectation here be that Ned expects Sansa will tell the truth, that she's going to be the tiebreaker? Why else call for her as a witness if he wants her to lie?

Okay here it is--that looks like he expects her to tell the truth to me:

"Damn that woman!" Ned said, striding to the door. "Find Sansa and bring her t o the audience chamber. Her voice may be needed."

And this--doesn't sound like Bob has any intention of harming Arya no matter what

At that, the king stirred. "Quiet, woman," he snapped. He straightened in his seat. "I am sorry, Ned. I never meant to frighten the girl. It seemed best to bring her here and get the business done with quickly."

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

I don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't Arya give her side of the story, Joff gives his side, Robert throws up his hands and then Ned calls for Sansa...wouldn't the expectation here be that Ned expects Sansa will tell the truth, that she's going to be the tiebreaker? Why else call for her as a witness if he wants her to lie?

Ned says (in his thoughts) that he knows the truth because Sansa had earlier told him. Then he calls for her, she pleads 5th, Arya pounces on her screaming liar, and he calls for Arya to shut it. Not making her speak up means, to me, that he was afraid of the consequences the truth would bring. Backed up by his evident fear regarding the circumstances around the proceedings with Arya.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Also, don't forget they killed Mycah who was the most innocent.

[Cas Stark]

Ned says (in his thoughts) that he knows the truth because Sansa had earlier told him. Then he calls for her, she pleads 5th, Arya pounces on her screaming liar, and he calls for Arya to shut it. Not making her speak up means, to me, that he was afraid of the consequences the truth would bring. Backed up by his evident fear regarding the circumstances around the proceedings with Arya.

Eh, I just put in the passage. He tells his men to go find Sansa because her voice may be needed.

When she punks out and lies, what is he going to do? Call her out as a liar? And tell her in front of the crowd, hey, that isn't what you told me? Cersei would have laughed her ass off then. Sansa's lie puts him in an untenable situation, so he says nothing.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Eh, I just put in the passage. He tells his men to go find Sansa because her voice may be needed.

When she punks out and lies, what is he going to do? Call her out as a liar? And tell her in front of the crowd, hey, that isn't what you told me? Cersei would have laughed her ass off then. Sansa's lie puts him in an untenable situation, so he says nothing.

Well I disagree and think it was planned.

[Cas Stark]

Well I disagree and think it was planned.

That makes no sense. The plain interpretation of the text: her voice may needed...is that he expects her to tell the truth. Why is her voice needed if he intends for her to say she doesn't remember? Why does Arya tell her side, Joff tells his side, Robert says..basically, he said/she said and Ned brings in Sansa and you t hink he's bringing her in to say she doesn't know what happened?

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

You say potatoe, I say potatoe. Your view doesn't make sense to me either.

[Grail King]

Lady is gone. Signifying that Sansa's future lies in the South.

I'm not going to disagree, but not agreeing either I think of all the Starks I think Sansa's has the most wide open journey the death of Lady could mean many things; if we go by the opening scene ( before the pups ) then we may have to conclude that houses Baratheon and Stark are toast.

But GRRM introduced the pups one for each Stark child we know that the Dire Wolves have to bond with the owners and we know that they also take on their partners personality from where I see it Sansa and Lady bonded she is the quiet and trusting wolf unfortunately she was left tied up as Sansa and Joffery took that faithful walk in the woods so we don't get to see if Lady would have then bared fangs.

I think by how well Lady did act in public ( both seem to hide their emotions internally ) and with Sansa showed they are joined, maybe not as much as Bran or Rickon or Jon but they are joined none the less.

Lady's death could mean Sansa Naiveness will die, or she could outright die doing nothing for the story ( I don't believe this ), she could sacrifice herself for her house and or a family member as she was willing to send herself and Joffery off the battlement in KL, and when going to meet Dontos in the Godswood for the first time brought a knife to take her own life if it was a trap.

We also can see that she may not get back to Winterfell ever again ( possible but I don't think likely ) forever stuck in the south or somewhere else hiding for her life.

The snow Winterfell scene really looms large to me especially since just before that she blacked out, something definitely happened there, I also think she may have warged the old dog in LF keep, she seems to be a strong empath also.

So not disagreeing but I brought my take.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Here's the text:

As Arya began her story, Ned heard the door open behind him. He glanced back and saw Vayon Poole enter with Sansa. They stood quietly at the back of the hall as Arya spoke. When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey’s sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. “Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes.”

Lord Renly stifled his laughter. “My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself.” He bowed to Joffrey. “Perchance later you’ll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river.” As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, “Lion’s Tooth,” and guffaw once more.

Prince Joffrey was pale as he began his very different version of events. When his son was done talking, the king rose heavily from his seat, looking like a man who wanted to be anywhere but here. “What in all the seven hells am I supposed to make of this? He says one thing, she says another.”

“They were not the only ones present,” Ned said. “Sansa, come here.” Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth. “Tell us what happened.”

So, @Lady Beyond the Wall, no way it was planned. Ned explicitly calls Sansa to tell what he knows is the truth, in order to convince Robert. Of course we wouldn't call his own daughter a liar in front of everyone, and of course he would call for Arya to shut it up, when she was calling her sister a liar publically.

@Elba

Sansa had witnessed enough of that trial before she was asked to say her version. I think that her upbringing explains why it was so difficult for her to put the blame on Joffrey and to see him for what he was. I think that her emotions at the time she was called to testify are nicely presented in the following line:

She blinked at her sister, then at the young prince. “I don’t know,” she said tearfully, looking as though she wanted to bolt. “I don’t remember. Everything happened so fast, I didn’t see...”

I see there a dilemma that she finds impossible to answer, that she feels like she wants to vanish before she takes the part of the one or the other. I don't see any particular worry about her sister that could point to a subconscious effort to find a way to help her.

I have a lot of sympathy for Sansa in that scene. She gets a lot of unfair blame, as if everything that happened was her fault. It was not her strongest or bravest moment and she failed to show good judgement, but it doesn't make her a bad person or anything. There is a reason, I believe, that we got her POV before this chapter, so that we can understand her and not judge her harshly and undeservedly. As it seems, it didn't work for a part of readers and that scene has generated a lot of, unfair IMO, criticism against her character. But I feel that various interpretations that revise these events are born from a need to address this kind of readers' reaction, not from a need to better understand the character as it is developped in the actual text. I'm not saying that you are doing that, I guess I'm just trying to say that I wouldn't care much for Sansa if she was little miss perfect. Her failures contribute as much as her virtues to make her such a fascinating character.

[CaptainTheo]

I do think that Ned expected Sansa to be honest and side with Arya, because Ned is a very honourable man and expects his daughter to be like that. Sansa was still in love with Joffrey and wanted to be queen, so she pretended to forget, in an attempt to keep them onside. It might have worked too if Cersei was not an irrational idiot, demanding the death of Sansa's wolf instead, who was well-behaved and innocent of any wrongdoing. Or if King Robert had any spine at all and had stood up to his wife's ridiculous demand.

Put me in with those who believe that Lady would not have been killed if Sansa had backed up Arya. It would have confirmed that Nymeria was acting in self-defence and therefore not guilty, so there was no punishment due. Cersei might have tried to have a wolf killed anyway but in this case she would have absolutely no case. Had Sansa confirmed the story, I also don't see how Arya can be guilty of striking Joffrey, when she was defending her friend Mycah from Joffrey's unprovoked attack.

As it was, there enough ambiguity for Cersei to demand the death of a wolf. In this chapter I was most upset about Lady dying, but I must put in a word for Mycah too. Why wasn't the Hound punished for executing him? I mean, murder is a far worse crime than anything alledged to have taken place at the trident. The king had ruled, "chidren fight - it's over" and Arya got off scott-free so there was no reason for anything at all to happen to Mycah either, especially when he was as innocent of any wrongdoing as Lady was.

In any case, I find this entire topic about the death of Lady and what it means for Sansa fascinating.

[PWT3]

Except that Ned knew the truth of what happened. Sansa told he before they found Arya. He knew the truth, and didn't make Sansa tell it. Why, because it could have cost Arya her life. Robert may of never wanted to hurt a child, but Cersei would. Ned isn't stupid. The whole pleading of the 5th was planned. That's why he quiet Arya when she pounded her sister for lying. He didn't make Sansa tell what he knew happened. They really never thought Lady was in danger. Nymeria was gone, so with Sansa pleading the 5th there was no just way for Cersei to for blood. Lady was just unfair. Ned even calls Robert on it.

This is a nonsensical reading. You think Ned brought Sansa out to say she pled the 5th? It was a tie. Why would he alienate his daughter and make himself look like a liar or a fool just to have a tie remain a tie? Ned IS stupid when it comes to politics and intrigue. He thought Sansa would tell the truth she'd already told him.

[PWT3]

and it has kept her alive. That's more than you can say about 50% of the other characters.

This is a non sequitur. You're agreeing with me; Sansa acted unlike Ned.

[Cas Stark]

She deserves some understanding to a point. She could take Joff's anger at seeing a baseborn boy "attacking" a high born girl at face value, but how to rationalize that he attacks her own sister? And how to rationalize the massive lie he tells that her sister and Mycah attacked him?

And then, instead of telling the truth, as it seems clear to me...her father called her to the chamber to do, and expected her to do...she basically pleads ignorance, can't remember...in order to protect Joff, NOT HER SISTER, her sister needs her to tell the truth here, at least a sanitized version that disproves she and Mycah attacked Joff. Keeping silent in no way protects Arya.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

This is a nonsensical reading. You think Ned brought Sansa out to say she pled the 5th? It was a tie. Why would he alienate his daughter and make himself look like a liar or a fool just to have a tie remain a tie? Ned IS stupid when it comes to politics and intrigue. He thought Sansa would tell the truth she'd already told him.

So if she had told the truth, and Joff's was outed as a lair it would have went smoother for the Starks? I doubt Cersei would have allowed for Robert to allow for public humiliation of the crown prince. Think about the consequences.

[PWT3]

I'm not going to disagree, but not agreeing either I think of all the Starks I think Sansa's has the most wide open journey the death of Lady could mean many things; if we go by the opening scene ( before the pups ) then we may have to conclude that houses Baratheon and Stark are toast.

The dead direwolf isn't House Stark, it's Ned. And Ned is toast. Obviously his children aren't.

[Cas Stark]

I don't know that we will know what Lady's death means until the end. But, Bran and Summer are together and in the North, they have protectors and advocates. Jon and Ghost are together and in the North, they have protectors and advocates, because he's not dead. Rickon and Shaggy Dog are together on Skagos with at least one protector, soon to have more and supporters as well. Robb and Grey Wind were together and had protectors and advocates until Robb decided to stop paying attention to his wolf and started chaining him up, and now, both are dead. Arya became separated from her wolf and is now on a different continent from everyone else, though she has still had advocates and protectors and still has a strong psychic link. Sansa's wolf is dead, and she has had very few if any true advocates or protectors. Make of that what you will.

[PWT3]

So if she had told the truth, and Joff's was outed as a lair it would have went smoother for the Starks? I doubt Cersei would have allowed for Robert to allow for public humiliation of the crown prince. Think about the consequences.

Sansa would have remained a Stark. So yes, it would have gone smoother for her at least. I'm not sure what you think could have happened to them that would have been worse than what did happen to them.

[David Selig]

Sansa would have remained a Stark.

She is a Stark and always will be one.

[Cas Stark]

So if she had told the truth, and Joff's was outed as a lair it would have went smoother for the Starks? I doubt Cersei would have allowed for Robert to allow for public humiliation of the crown prince. Think about the consequences.

Joff was already publicly humiliated by having it known that Arya took his sword and threw it in the river, his own uncle was mocking and laughing at him. Alleged uncle, rather. LOL.