What I find strange about Lady's sacrifice

[PWT3]

I don't know that we will know what Lady's death means until the end. But, Bran and Summer are together and in the North, they have protectors and advocates. Jon and Ghost are together and in the North, they have protectors and advocates, because he's not dead. Rickon and Shaggy Dog are together on Skagos with at least one protector, soon to have more and supporters as well. Robb and Grey Wind were together and had protectors and advocates until Robb decided to stop paying attention to his wolf and started chaining him up, and now, both are dead. Arya became separated from her wolf and is now on a different continent from everyone else, though she has still had advocates and protectors and still has a strong psychic link. Sansa's wolf is dead, and she has had very few if any true advocates or protectors. Make of that what you will.

I think your analysis is good, but we know right now. The wolves are the Stark identities of the children. If Sansa is ever to be a Stark again, she'd have to get a new direwolf - but maybe the rules of this particular story are that even that wouldn't do it, and she's simply no longer a Stark, forever. But there can be no question what the dog dying meant. It immediately followed her effectively siding with the family's enemy against the family.

[PWT3]

She is a Stark and always will be one.

Tell GRRM that. He killed her wolf.

[ARYa_Nym]

Sansa's testimony doesn't confirm that Arya hit Joffrey. The confirmation was already there when Arya and Joffrey said that she hit him. Sansa's testimony wasn't about that. Besides, Dunk never lost anything. He got a trial. Robert already set the precedent of not punishing for this when he pardoned Gregor and Lorch. He doesn't have to follow Targaryen laws.

[David Selig]

Tell GRRM that. He killed her wolf.

So what? It changes nothing about her bloodline. Thousands of Starks over the years had no wolves either.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Sansa would have remained a Stark. So yes, it would have gone smoother for her at least. I'm not sure what you think could have happened to them that would have been worse than what did happen to them.

Seriously. You think the crown prince, and by way his mother, are outed as lairs in front of their men, and all that would happen is Sansa would have remained a Stark! Come on, think about it. Arya did attack Joff to defend Mycah. She had a stick, and unsword him.

[PWT3]

So what? It changes nothing about her bloodline. Thousands of Starks over the years had no wolves either.

You are a mindless literalist and cannot possibly be getting out of these novels what their author put into them.

[Cas Stark]

I think your analysis is good, but we know right now. The wolves are the Stark identities of the children. If Sansa is ever to be a Stark again, she'd have to get a new direwolf - but maybe the rules of this particular story are that even that wouldn't do it, and she's simply no longer a Stark, forever. But there can be no question what the dog dying meant. It immediately followed her effectively siding with the family's enemy against the family.

Also, everyone who stayed in the North, so far, alive and better off. Robb and Grey Wind went south, dead. Arya and Nymeria went south, separated, disaster. Sansa went south, Lady dead, Sansa at the mercy of everyone around her. No weirwood trees in the south, no power for the old gods in teh south. Moral of the story: stay in the North and listen to your wolf.

[PWT3]

Seriously. You think the crown prince, and by way his mother, are outed as lairs in front of their men, and all that would happen is Sansa would have remained a Stark! Come on, think about it. Arya did attack Joff to defend Mycah. She had a stick, and unsword him.

I have no idea what this even means. I wonder if you know what it means.

[PWT3]

Also, everyone who stayed in the North, so far, alive and better off. Robb and Grey Wind went south, dead. Arya and Nymeria went south, separated, disaster. Sansa went south, Lady dead, Sansa at the mercy of everyone around her. No weirwood trees in the south, no power for the old gods in teh south. Moral of the story: stay in the North and listen to your wolf.

Aye. Stay in the North.

[David Selig]

You are a mindless literalist and cannot possibly be getting out of these novels what their author put into them.

LOL.

Thankfully now I have your wisdom available to enlighten me, right?

Also, everyone who stayed in the North, so far, alive and better off. Robb and Grey Wind went south, dead. Arya and Nymeria went south, separated, disaster. Sansa went south, Lady dead, Sansa at the mercy of everyone around her. No weirwood trees in the south, no power for the old gods in teh south. Moral of the story: stay in the North and listen to your wolf.

Bran stayed and it was all great for him - oh, wait...

[Cas Stark]

Seriously. You think the crown prince, and by way his mother, are outed as lairs in front of their men, and all that would happen is Sansa would have remained a Stark! Come on, think about it. Arya did attack Joff to defend Mycah. She had a stick, and unsword him.

And? We know Arya hit Joff, tossed his sword in the river and called him a liar before the queen and king and nothing happened to her. And she is the one who was flouting all kinds of social conventions by sword fighting, hitting the crown prince and hanging out with a peasant.

Yet, you think somehow Sansa confirming her story is going to cause something bad to happen? To me, I'm sorry, that makes no sense.

It's clear from the POV that Robert did not ever intent to punish Arya. Now, what would have happened to her if Cersei's Lannister men got her is another question altogether. But Bob wasn't going to do anything to her, he lets her call his son a liar and she walks away, he tells his wife that children fight and to get over it. Sansa backing her sister up would change none of this.

[ARYa_Nym]

Seriously. You think the crown prince, and by way his mother, are outed as lairs in front of their men, and all that would happen is Sansa would have remained a Stark! Come on, think about it. Arya did attack Joff to defend Mycah. She had a stick, and unsword him.

Dunk kicked Aerion's teeth out and nothing happened to him. Gregor and Lorch butchered two royals and nothing happened to them. They're not even highborn. They did far worse than Arya and are less valuable.

[Florina Laufeyson]

lol...

lololol...

I dont think Arya lost her identity. I also dont think Sansa was in love with her family/the north as Arya was.

"It's just a stupid sword," she said, aloud this time...
... but it wasn't.
Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile."

I understand the use of "Starkness" is silly. I would say Sansa is more her mothers daughter whilst Arya is more her fathers daughter. Arya seems to have alot more if the wolf blood that Lyanna had.

Note the odd parallel between Sansa's building the snow castle and Arya killing Dareon. Both girls do these actions without really thinking about it. Arya doesnt realize why she kills Dareon, only that she felt he needed to die. (Northern Identity subconsciously coming through. The idea of duty. Arya doesnt make this connection however.) Sansa builds her snow castle without really thinking about it either. She just plays in the snow and all the sudden BAM Winterfell.

I also disagree that Arya is more like Ned. Shes more like Cat. Some measured thinking but also acts on emotion. Sansa acts on emotion at first but learns to shield herself with telling people what they want to hear.

That doesn't make sense. Sansa is as much in love with the North and her family as Arya. Hell, Sansa's escape from KL was in hope to go home.

I love that Arya line. But how different is it from Sansa building a snow castle like Winterfell?

No, I'd say the contrary. Sansa's personality is much more closer to Ned's and Arya's much closer to Cat.

Yeah. But like i mentioned, Needle's burying doesnt mirror the snow castle as much as the killing of a NW deserter.

We know she didn't do it to save Arya though, because we know that she blames Arya and her father and we know that in fact when she is brought before the queen after Ned is imprisoned that she tells the queen that it is Arya who has trator's blood...not her...she is loyal to Joff, loves him, wants to marry him, etc. etc.

Sansa stops blaming Arya for that in ASoS. She rightfully finally places the blame on Cersei.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Joff was already publicly humiliated by having it known that Arya took his sword and threw it in the river, his own uncle was mocking and laughing at him. Alleged uncle, rather. LOL.

And then finding out the story Cersei created was a lie would have went well.

I have no idea what this even means. I wonder if you know what it means.

Arya would have been punished, and not by Ned.

[PWT3]

LOL.

Thankfully now I have your wisdom available to enlighten me, right?

Bran stayed and it was all great for him - oh, wait...

Is Bran dead? Is he separated from his wolf? Has he lost his identity?

You need somebody to enlighten you. I've had two extremely literal replies on here in the past couple days - yours, and someone who apparently thought my saying Sansa was "pure Tully" meant I thought both her parents were Tullys. I honestly don't know how people who think like you or the other fellow could read these book and understand them. Because they are complicated and are full of things that aren't completely spelled out - full of things that don't even exist except in metaphor and innuendo.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Dunk kicked Aerion's teeth out and nothing happened to him. Gregor and Lorch butchered two royals and nothing happened to them. They're not even highborn. They did far worse than Arya and are less valuable.

They were not Cersei Lannisters children. She was taking Ned out of office one way or another.

[ARYa_Nym]

They were not Cersei Lannisters children.

Because Maekor is perfectly nice and sunshine? He's not. There was also an entire domain of Westeros calling for Gregor and Lorch to be punished.

Cersei was not king. She liked to act like she is but Robert is the king. He said no and that's it.

[PWT3]

"I also disagree that Arya is more like Ned. Shes more like Cat. Some measured thinking but also acts on emotion. Sansa acts on emotion at first but learns to shield herself with telling people what they want to hear."

Arya is nothing like Cat. Cat is a moron with no innate sense of justice. She can't tell a good person from an evil one, an innocent person from a guilty one. She is a snob - it's one of, if not her main trait. Arya meanwhile is as natural a democrat as we meet anywhere in the series. Cat's impulsiveness and vengefulness is compared to Arya's - but it's mindless, almost indiscriminate impulsiveness and vengefulness, nothing like Arya's. Much more like Ned's, which exists and is intense but simmers hardly even discernible beneath an icy exterior. Cat is also proven a physical coward on the way to the Eyrie - Arya would have enjoyed the trip, and much enjoyed Mya Stone's company, as would Ned, as would Jon Snow.

The two are near-polar opposites. Snow and Arya look like Ned (who looks like a Stark) for a reason.

[Minsc]

I've had two extremely literal replies on here in the past couple days - yours, and someone who apparently thought my saying Sansa was "pure Tully" meant I thought both her parents were Tullys.

Do tell what "Stark" and "Tully" mean without reference to House status. In how, both Brandon and Ned seem to be taken as True "Starks" yet they seem further apart then Arya and Sansa in regards to behavior. Similarly, Edmure and Blackfish seem to share different priorities and strengths despite both being Pure "Tullys."

The two are near-polar opposites. Snow and Arya look like Ned (who looks like a Stark) for a reason.

And you are complaining about other readers relying on literalism.

[ARYa_Nym]

Catelyn is more peaceful than vengeful though. She wanted Stannis and Renly to stop fighting. She wanted to get her children back instead of keep fighting for Lannisters. She may have said negative things about Cersei but she also sympathized and prayed for her. She still wanted to come to term with the Freys in the end when she was losing it. Arya is far more vengeful and vindictive.