What I find strange about Lady's sacrifice

[Cas Stark]

The blooded reiterates what I said. The stand still was the only thing that allowed Robert to not punish Arya. If Joff/Cersei were called out as liars, it would have gone much worse for Arya because of Cersei wrath. She still hit him, and disarmed him, as we agree. Ned was aware. I think the order of his thoughts,his defensive approach, obvious fear, and recognizing that he has no allies in the room except his few men, supports this. I would love to know what you think would have happened if Joff was called out as a liar.

Robert would punish him, or intend to punish him and be stopped by Cersei.

You make it seem as if Cersei has infinite power, she doesn't. She doesn't get her way here at all. She still wants Arya punished, despite Sansa's failure to back her up, it simply makes no sense that once it's proven that her son is lying about the incident she's going to go in front of the entire group 'now punish her for ? what ? on what pretext would she have called for punishment once Sansa proved Joff lied? I want you to punish this girl for proving my son is a liar is just not going to fly with Robert. It's ridiculous.

Cersei I'm sure would have immediately started plotting on revenge, but in the moment, when Sansa proved Arya's version was correct, it would have been checkmate. The end. No punishment for Arya no death for Lady.

[ARYa_Nym]

The bolded reiterates what I said. The stand still was the only thing that allowed Robert to not punish Arya. If Joff/Cersei were called out as liars, it would have gone much worse for Arya because of Cersei wrath. She still hit him, and disarmed him, as we agree. Ned was aware. I think the order of his thoughts,his defensive approach, obvious fear, and recognizing that he has no allies in the room except his few men, supports this. I would love to know what you think would have happened if Joff was called out as a liar.

Edit: failed to bold. See first line of quote

It isn't. Cersei tried to punish Arya anyways regardless of the standstill. If Robert uses the Targaryen law as a premise then it just says the guilty party is the one who hit the royal. They don't make specifications if there was provocation or not.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Robert would punish him, or intend to punish him and be stopped by Cersei.

You make it seem as if Cersei has infinite power, she doesn't. She doesn't get her way here at all. She still wants Arya punished, despite Sansa's failure to back her up, it simply makes no sense that once it's proven that her son is lying about the incident she's going to go in front of the entire group 'now punish her for ? what ? on what pretext would she have called for punishment once Sansa proved Joff lied? I want you to punish this girl for proving my son is a liar is just not going to fly with Robert. It's ridiculous.

Cersei I'm sure would have immediately started plotting on revenge, but in the moment, when Sansa proved Arya's version was correct, it would have been checkmate. The end. No punishment for Arya no death for Lady.

Ok, then why didn't Ned make her fess up.

[Cas Stark]

Ok, then why didn't Ned make her fess up.

How is he going to do that? She's already lying, how is he now to know if he prompts her whether she will tell the truth or continue to lie? In hindsight he should have pushed her harder, but who would have imagined that the queen would demand an innocent wolf be slaughtered in revenge?

The fault here is not with Ned Stark, but with Sansa Stark, who had told her father the truth and who was called to the chamber and asked by her father to tell what happened and instead of doing this, she lied.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

The fault here is not with Ned Stark, but with Sansa Stark, who had told her father the truth and who was called to the chamber and asked by her father to tell what happened and instead of doing this, she lied.

This is what I don't think happened. If Ned knew the truth, I think he also knew that pushing it would not benefit him or the girls. I think he wanted Sansa to keep quiet and have it be Arya vs Joff, leaving them without a solid truth.

[Grail King]

I agree, I don't find the age argument very convincing, about the only "child" that really acts his age in terms of maturity and development is Tommen. Bran, Arya, Sansa, Dany, Missandre, even the 'teenagers' Jon and Robb are mature far beyond anything approaching normal in real life. So, 'only a child' doesn't go to far in the series.

Bran wanted to be a Knight believed in the honor and chivalry of it- normal for 6 or 9

Robb and Jon both brought up to lead esp. Robb 1st born needs to know war tactics, defenses and logistics- normal for his age and time but still technically young to command an army and for Jon commanding the NW.

Arya spoiled, rejects what she is supposed to do, has a dad who lets her follow her desire though it does vex his wife sorta normal for a 9 yo.

Sansa like Arya is spoiled, but as the eldest daughter (like the eldest son ) taught to be the best and dutiful to bring a good match for her and her family, they are all told stories of Knights, chivalry, honor, duty etc.

What was missing was a crash course in politics and customs outside of the North, a refresh of Lannister history and a true history of RR, Ned knew it was a viper pit.

Sansa and Arya, and Jeyne Poole needed that knowledge which was't given add this to the fact that they all grew up in a family environment of love, trust in others and caring which down South is seen as weakness by some and exploitable by others make the Starks looking and or acting younger then their counter parts down South.

Cersei, Joff, Jamie, Tyrion, Margery, Lady Spicer, the Freys, Danerys, Missandei, all grew up in a world of kill or be killed, heavy competition not only between other houses but also other family members , this is not the world that the Stark kids evolved from, so they are more naive and act somewhat younger then the people or houses from the south.

So depending on the environment of up bringing age does play a factor in my opinion.

[Cas Stark]

This is what I don't think happened. If Ned knew the truth, I think he also knew that pushing it would not benefit him or the girls. I think he wanted Sansa to keep quiet and have it be Arya vs Joff, leaving them without a solid truth.

LOL, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. It seems clear to me the truth benefits Arya. If he wanted to leave it as Arya v. Joff he said/she said, all he has to do is nothing, he would not have made it a point to get Sansa involved at all.

I want Sansa to keep quiet... so I'm going to call her into a room full of people and ask her to tell what happened. I really don't think so, but we all have our own opinions on things.

[Raksha 2014]

Horseshit. Even an 11 year old here isn't the same as an 11 year old "here". It depends on the culture and context in which one is brought up. I don't care what the official physiological data are. Culture is crucial in saying when someone is a child or not. An 11 year old is hardly a child in this culture. They aren't treated like children, they aren't written about like children. They shouldn't be excused on the basis of being children.

And Sansa is nothing like Ned. I've read that over and over on here. Ned said what he thought at every opportunity. He stood up for what was right - at every opportunity. Ned was intensely moral, outspoken, and honest. He spoke his mind and did what was right even at the cost of his own life. I see no parallel whatsoever in Sansa's behavior. She does precisely the OPPOSITE all throughout the series, saying whatever will keep her alive.

An 11-year-old human is not an adult, or even a teenager, I don't care what world/culture they live in. While it's true that Sansa has been educated differently than a kid her age would be in much of the 21st century real life cultures, she has not finished growing up and her brain has not yet finished developing. Her judgment is not as good as that of a 21-year-old or even an 18-year-old.

Arya murders at least two people in order to keep herself alive, and as I recall, at least one of the kills was not 100% necessary - not at all like Ned, but still at least somewhat excusable because of the stress and horrors she has endured, and because she is a child.

I think Sansa felt she was in an impossible situation; and improvised, and, in so doing, made a huge mistake. But it's not the worst thing that she could have done, or that was done during the journey (Joffrey's attacks on Mycah and Arya, the killing of Mycah on Cersei's orders, the killing of Lady for Nymeria's justifiable actions).

And PWT3, I would appreciate it if you did not refer to my words as Horseshit - civil discourse goes just as far in refuting arguments.

[Winter's Knight]

I'm not your mate.

I'm sure Flo is heartbroken.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Sansa lied, bottom-line, whether you justify it or not. That cost her wolf it's life. Had she said Joff was attacking Arya "WITH A SWORD" and the wolf saved her life, Lady would live and Arya, Nymeria, and Lady would have went back to WF.

Later Sansa lies to herself, hopefully she believes it at least, that Arya and Myca attacked Joff and Lady's death was their fault, cause they don't like things to be 'splendid'.

Blame who you want, justify what you want, but the only people that were lying or not acting in an honorable way was Joff, Cersei, and Sansa.

A theme that IMO has continued throughout the series.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I'm sure Flo is heartbroken.

Indeed.

[Jack's Smirking Revenge]

Is Bran dead? Is he separated from his wolf? Has he lost his identity?

You need somebody to enlighten you. I've had two extremely literal replies on here in the past couple days - yours, and someone who apparently thought my saying Sansa was "pure Tully" meant I thought both her parents were Tullys. I honestly don't know how people who think like you or the other fellow could read these book and understand them. Because they are complicated and are full of things that aren't completely spelled out - full of things that don't even exist except in metaphor and innuendo.

I don't know if you were talking about me but I clearly didn't say that in response to your post on page 2. You can't list traits that mean someone is a "real Stark", or define what "Starkness" is. Posters on this board always challenge those who say the same thing you did and so far not one poster has been able to list consistent traits defining what it is to be a Stark.

Ned was as different from Brandon as Sansa is from Arya. The same can be said about Bran and Rickon or Rickon and Sansa etc.

[Pecan]

But even that is a flawed argument. Sansa's story has been filled with she-wolf symbolism, Northern references, parallels with Ned. There is another thing we might consider when Lady's death is in question. At the beginning of Sansa's first POV chapter, Mordane noted that she is the same as Arya in regard of Lady. Since she-wolf symbolizes the women's freedom, and has been used by many feminists in 20th century, one can argue that by killing Lady, Martin in his universe forcefully domesticated Sansa, turning her for public into "pretty little bird". But, under that facade, Martin also created a powerful symbolism in her arc that is rather wrong to say Sansa was ever less Stark than the others. Even when she made mistakes, even when she was separated from the others, even when she was beaten, tortured, threatened, she endured... Her Stark roots are undeniably strong just as in each of the kids' storyarcs.

Here is what I said:

Actually, I should have edited the old gods part as I don't have a particular opinion on that. No, what I was referring to was the notion of symbolically severing Sansa from the pack. And actually, it's a bit more than symbolic since we know that the Stark kids all have supernatural connections with their wolves. When Ned kills Lady, in a way, you could argue that he's killing the wolf part of Sansa. That's what I was trying to get at.

I don't actually disagree with you. I don't think Sansa necessarily lost her identity, but as we see from the events that happen, she did become something of a lone wolf, separated from the pack.

[Mladen]

Here is what I said:

Actually, I should have edited the old gods part as I don't have a particular opinion on that. No, what I was referring to was the notion of symbolically severing Sansa from the pack. And actually, it's a bit more than symbolic since we know that the Stark kids all have supernatural connections with their wolves. When Ned kills Lady, in a way, you could argue that he's killing the wolf part of Sansa. That's what I was trying to get at.

I don't actually disagree with you. I don't think Sansa necessarily lost her identity, but as we see from the events that happen, she did become something of a lone wolf, separated from the pack.

Problem with that interpretation is that they are all separated from the pack after Ned's death. Arya was roaming through Riverlands, and after Robb's death, she went to Braavos. Jon was alone at NW, Bran was also feeling lonely given that Rickon was a kid, and after Winterfell got burned, he separated from him too. Robb was with Catelyn, and later he had his wife, soldiers, bannermen etc, but he was also alone. With possible exception of Robb, who created a new pack with his wife, and had Catelyn by his side, the rest of Stark kids could easily be defined as "lone wolves".

[Cas Stark]

Problem with that interpretation is that they are all separated from the pack after Ned's death. Arya was roaming through Riverlands, and after Robb's death, she went to Braavos. Jon was alone at NW, Bran was also feeling lonely given that Rickon was a kid, and after Winterfell got burned, he separated from him too. Robb was with Catelyn, and later he had his wife, soldiers, bannermen etc, but he was also alone. With possible exception of Robb, who created a new pack with his wife, and had Catelyn by his side, the rest of Stark kids could easily be defined as "lone wolves".

They are all separated, but Sansa, compared to her siblings lacks any support. Not only is she, herself, passive--loss of connection to the wolf compared to her family--but there is no that helps her. Bran has Maester Luwin, Osha, the Reeds, Coldhands. Rickon has Osha, and will soon have we presume Davos and who knows what has gone on on Skagos. Robb had an army. Jon has tons of allies. Arya has consistently met all kinds of people who helped and protected her. Who has protected Sansa? Who have been her allies? No one. Not then, not now. So, she is perhaps alone in a different, more fundamental way than the others. The closest have been the Hound, who offers to take her from KL and Tyrion, who is "nice" to her. That kind of pales in comparison to the kind of help the rest of her family has gotten.

[Mladen]

They are all separated, but Sansa, compared to her siblings lacks any support. Not only is she, herself, passive--loss of connection to the wolf compared to her family--but there is no that helps her. Bran has Maester Luwin, Osha, the Reeds, Coldhands. Rickon has Osha, and will soon have we presume Davos and who knows what has gone on on Skagos. Robb had an army. Jon has tons of allies. Arya has consistently met all kinds of people who helped and protected her. Who has protected Sansa? Who have been her allies? No one. Not then, not now. So, she is perhaps alone in a different, more fundamental way than the others. The closest have been the Hound, who offers to take her from KL and Tyrion, who is "nice" to her. That kind of pales in comparison to the kind of help the rest of her family has gotten.

Where does this story about passivity comes from? I would call Sansa many names, but passive certainly isn't one of them. I don't see how the loss of her wolf has anything to do with people surrounding her, just as the separation of Arya and Nymeria has nothing with whom Arya has met. Sansa is alone, yes, but I wouldn't call Arya as having someone, and we see how Jon's allies saved him... I think you want to prove something, and I am not getting it, since the reasoning is a bit obscure. I understand that Sansa is perhaps the loneliest of the pack, but I don't see what that has to do with Lady's death.

[Cas Stark]

Where does this story about passivity comes from? I would call Sansa many names, but passive certainly isn't one of them. I don't see how the loss of her wolf has anything to do with people surrounding her, just as the separation of Arya and Nymeria has nothing with whom Arya has met. Sansa is alone, yes, but I wouldn't call Arya as having someone, and we see how Jon's allies saved him... I think you want to prove something, and I am not getting it, since the reasoning is a bit obscure. I understand that Sansa is perhaps the loneliest of the pack, but I don't see what that has to do with Lady's death.

It's the idea that without her wolf being alive she is more alone, more at risk, more at odds with the world, cut off from her source of strength and protection....illustrated by the difference in the level of support that she receives when compared to her siblings. Further illlustrated by Robb dying after he stopped listening to his wolf and Arya being cast adrift on a different continent since she was separated from her wolf. You know, the wolves were sent by the old gods to protect the Starks, thus, when the wolves are gone/dead/ignored bad things happen..and perhaps in Sansa's case it is exacerbated by the fact, in my opinion, that her wolf's death is due in large part to her own weakness in her actions.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Mladen, on 15 Jan 2014 - 10:45 PM, said:

Where does this story about passivity comes from? I would call Sansa many names, but passive certainly isn't one of them. I don't see how the loss of her wolf has anything to do with people surrounding her, just as the separation of Arya and Nymeria has nothing with whom Arya has met. Sansa is alone, yes, but I wouldn't call Arya as having someone, and we see how Jon's allies saved him... I think you want to prove something, and I am not getting it, since the reasoning is a bit obscure. I understand that Sansa is perhaps the loneliest of the pack, but I don't see what that has to do with Lady's death.

You're arguing with someone who dislikes Sansa for not escaping the Red Keep (there was a very lively thread a few days ago).

Anyway, I think it's way too simplistic to view Sansa as having lost her Stark identity. Both Sansa and Arya are separated from their family, isolated and far from home and both have had to leave their real names behind. However, they both think of home and family. Arya still has Needle. Sansa built the snow castle. They are both still connected to Winterfell and house Stark and IMO their stories will take them back eventually.

[Cas Stark]

You're arguing with someone who dislikes Sansa for not escaping the Red Keep (there was a very lively thread a few days ago).

Anyway, I think it's way too simplistic to view Sansa as having lost her Stark identity. Both Sansa and Arya are separated from their family, isolated and far from home and both have had to leave their real names behind. However, they both think of home and family. Arya still has Needle. Sansa built the snow castle. They are both still connected to Winterfell and house Stark and IMO their stories will take them back eventually.

I would appreciate it if you wouldn't mischaracterize my arguments. I criticized Sansa for never even thinking about trying to escape or ever doing the slightest thing to see if it might be possible, not for failing to escape. Or, perhaps that difference escaped you.

[FoolishOwl]

So if she had told the truth, and Joff's was outed as a lair it would have went smoother for the Starks? I doubt Cersei would have allowed for Robert to allow for public humiliation of the crown prince. Think about the consequences.

Robert does not love, respect, or trust Cersei, and he despises Joffrey. As Robert had earlier explained to Eddard, he felt he needed Eddard as Hand because he was surrounded by Lannisters at court, and Eddard was a man he could trust who would resist the Lannisters. Cersei understood, of course, that Eddard Stark had been made King's Hand as a check on her authority, and as an effort by Robert to assert his authority.

In this meeting, Robert had already said that this was simply a fight between children; Eddard promised to discipline Arya in private, and Robert was happy to leave matters at that. Cersei, however, wanted a harsh punishment, and Robert backed down and proceeded with the public questioning of the children. This was already an admission of weakness.

For Eddard Stark, it was clear that this would be his first test. The situation was much as Robert described court life: most in the room were loyal to Cersei, who was hostile to him; Eddard Stark had only the support of his children, who were the ones immediately at risk; and Robert, who had just demonstrated his weakness. Eddard and Robert both understood that Eddard's task was to reinforce Robert's authority. Robert had declared himself at an impasse at the disagreement between Joffrey's story and Arya's. Eddard had already heard Sansa's story, so his expectation was that Sansa would corroborate Arya's story. This would give Robert the grounds he wanted to condone Arya, rebuke Joffrey, humble Cersei, reinforce his own authority, and establish the authority of his best ally, his new Hand.

The problem was that meant that Robert was dependent upon Eddard, who was dependent upon Sansa, who was very young, very upset, and very divided in her feelings at that moment. All three failed, though Sansa was least at fault, and Robert most at fault, since he should have been able to assert his authority on his own initiative.