Put away the GNC, we already have a new King in the North

[E-Ro]

You know who else sucks?

Mance rayder. Now that guy is a total clown.

[Beorn Snow]

You know who else sucks?

Mance rayder. Now that guy is a total clown.

Now you are just trolling.

[butterbumps!]

Then I'm sorry, got the timeline mixed up. But still, his initial plan wasn't that bad, quickly robbing the Boltons of their most secure base would certainly have some advantages, especially without taking the Mountain Clans into account.

Well, Stannis knew the Dreadfort would be relatively abandoned and thought the Karstarks were with him. Ok, that kind of makes sense, but there were some major miscalculations.

Stannis hadn't understood that the Northmen considered the Ironborn to be their main enemy; Roose is Stannis' enemy, not the Northmen's exactly, or at least, no more than Stannis would appear to be. Secondly, Stannis miscalculated how long it would take Moat Cailin to fall-- he hadn't considered that it was defensible only to the South. As a third misstep, he was convinced (nay, insisting) that he could still take the Bolton host-- which would be augmented by a few thousand Freys-- outside the castle in a siege, without knowing anything about the castle itself. There were other miscalculations, but I think these are the main ones that go beyond simply not knowing the inner workings of the North.

[RoamingRonin]

Yawn. Jon sucks.

Also I can't tell if serious.

Not sirius. I don't think he sucks but all of those titles... getting ridiculous.

[Nic.]

he's only burning their gods, so yeah how could they ever betray him? :bang:

[E-Ro]

Now you are just trolling.

Dude what has mance done that is so great? He attacked the wall. And lost horribly. He would have led the wildlings on a campaigner of rape and terror in the north. He's an asshole and a jackass.

[redriver]

Dude what has mance done that is so great? He attacked the wall. And lost horribly. He would have led the wildlings on a campaigner of rape and terror in the north. He's an asshole and a jackass.

He unified an entire population,many of whom were enemies,and led them on an exodus from an enemy who threatened their very existence.He never advocated rape or terror.

He's now in Winterfell,sowing discord amongst the Bolton supporters,has secured the release of fake Arya and is setting the scene for a return of a Stark to Winterfell,probably key in the end game.

I quite like Stannis and I certainly hope the Northerners don't turn on him(I don't think they will),but there's no need to hate the Mance.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Dude what has mance done that is so great? He attacked the wall. And lost horribly. He would have led the wildlings on a campaigner of rape and terror in the north. He's an asshole and a jackass.

Mance was trying to save a hundred thousand souls from almost certain death, something that Stannis sees the wisdom of after Mance's defeat.

[Antler's Fury]

No. Stannis has done a terrible job of ruling the North. He doesn't understand the locals.

Which Southern king has?

The crofter's village is a perfect example of how terrible a ruler Stannis would make. He's secluded himself from everyone else,

Because that's what kings and lords do. They seclude themselves in castles like the Red Keep, Winterfell, etc. Stannis needs a command center for himself and his officers and the tower in the crofter's village serves that purpose.

left his men to starve to death,

because there was no food left, which is hardly Stannis' fault. Everyone in the North is starving to death.

and burned people alive for committing a crime he consider himself in his youth,

Considered? Sure. Carried out? No. Ultimately, we don't know what Stannis would have done had Davos not arrived.

all the while suffering significantly greater casualties then the Northerns who have little patience for him, his men, and his religion.

Because of the cold weather, yes. This has no bearing on how good a king he would be.

I disagree w/ the OP. The Crofter's Village is a microcosm of the Realm under Stannis: a bleak and terrible place.

The village is bleak and terrible because it is caught in a blizzard, not because of Stannis.

The point is that Stannis has some of his men burned for cannibalism, a crime he considered himself during the Siege of Storm's End. That's why it is relevant: It showcases Stannis' hypocrisy.

But during the march itself, Stannis starved like the rest of them, and did not consider cannibalism, so he expects his men to do the same. Or else they'd keep eating dead people, and might even start killing and eating living people.

On the basis of what GRRM shows us in ASOIAF Jon seems to be the better strategist of the two.

Later in that same conversation it is Jon who misunderstands Daeron I's strategy in Dorne, thinking that goat tracks played an influential role. Stannis corrects him by pointing out the importance of Daeron's naval power. Were the situation flipped, it would be Jon asking Stannis for advice about how to fight in the South, but that wouldn't necessarily prove that Stannis was the better strategist either. Jon's contribution to the discussion is his better understanding of the Northern houses, their capabilities, history, etc which is only to be expected given that he's a native of the area. In this case, he knows the desires and capabilities of the Umber lords, how fast Ramsay can move to get back to the Dreadfort before Stannis takes it, the Dreadfort's own defenses, etc.

[Talking Hodor]

I like Stannis and I think he would make a very good king, but I don't think a character without a PoV is going to end up as king of anything.

I don't think anybody claiming the kingship of anything has had a POV, except for Daenerys. For narrative purposes, it's better not knowing what's going on in the mind of a king, if you ask me. Not sure what that's supposed to say about Daenerys, but perhaps it means that she's the only true ruler destined for a throne while all the pretenders aren't worthy of a POV.

[Gogossos]

Dude what has mance done that is so great? He attacked the wall. And lost horribly. He would have led the wildlings on a campaigner of rape and terror in the north. He's an asshole and a jackass.

You think Stannis could ever have been King Beyond The Wall? Uniting those guys requires a skill set beyond Stannis'.

[butterbumps!]

Later in that same conversation it is Jon who misunderstands Daeron I's strategy in Dorne, thinking that goat tracks played an influential role. Stannis corrects him by pointing out the importance of Daeron's naval power. Were the situation flipped, it would be Jon asking Stannis for advice about how to fight in the South, but that wouldn't necessarily prove that Stannis was the better strategist either. Jon's contribution to the discussion is his better understanding of the Northern houses, their capabilities, history, etc which is only to be expected given that he's a native of the area. In this case, he knows the desires and capabilities of the Umber lords, how fast Ramsay can move to get back to the Dreadfort before Stannis takes it, the Dreadfort's own defenses, etc.

That isn't really much of an example showing that Stannis schooled Jon in strategy. Both the goat tracks and the navel attack contributed to the Dorne conquest (Stannis doesn't invalidate Jon's mention-- he emphasizes a different aspect of it, showing his disgust at having to take the goat track route to woo the clans). In fact, it's precisely the goat-track path that Jon convinces Stannis to take here.

The other thing is that yes, while, Jon knew particulars Stannis didn't, Stannis made a few significant errors in judgment that aren't simply due to not knowing about the North in detail:

1. Stannis takes for granted the North will side (or at least not interfere) with him against the Boltons. He doesn't even question it.

2. Stannis doesn't even consider that Moat Cailin's defenses might be different from North to South, a concept he should know to at least question from his siege experience, and most certainly given his time at the Wall, which is based on that model.

3. He seriously wants to meet forces that outnumber him in a siege battle without any consideration at all about the strength of the castle itself. He doesn't even think to ask for the info he's missing.

[E-Ro]

Mance was trying to save a hundred thousand souls from almost certain death, something that Stannis sees the wisdom of after Mance's defeat.

Trying to save them from certain death by assaulting the wall? Once they get past it they would have all been killed by the people in the north anyway.

Instead of brute force he should have tried diplomacy. At his parley at the wall he offers nothing at all other then "let us through and I won't kill you."

Mance is a fool.

[Talking Hodor]

If we could get him away from Mel, I'd be willing to support his claim. Fact is the sob kinda grows on you after a while.

But if I were Stannis, I'd like to further cement my claim by fostering Rickon as my ward, and POSSIBLY, (if in years to come it seems like a good match) marrying him to Shireen.

Shireen's doomed to die in childhood once her sickness returns. Stannis could rule the north as a regent and father another daughter to marry Rickon, but that's his only chance at seeing his progeny sit on a throne.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

I don't get why people are going to great lengths to theorize the crowning of a new Stark King in the North, when we already have a King who is helping the North

A King who unlike his predecessor, saved the North instead of dooming it for his own vengeance and ill-thought out independence

A King who threw out the Ironborn and gave Deepwood back to the Glovers while during the reign of the pretender, the Ironborn invaded, pillaged and raped

A King who rode to the defence of the Night's Watch and saved the North from being overrun with wildlings while the so called King of Winter was aimlessly razing the Westerlands, without even cluing his loyal man in on his grand strategy, wasting Northern lives for nothing

A King who rode to Lady Arya's rescue (even though she is fake), and whose loyal Hand is risking his life to restore a Stark to Winterfell, while the boy caused the ruin of his ancestral home and death of his smallfolk thanks to his choices, and left his sister to rot so as to keep Jaime Lannister his own

A King who is bringing justice down upon the Boltons, instead of being like the southron day dreamer who was oggling some western broad while Roose played with Northern lives under his nose

A Mannis who is cleaning up Robb's mess and can't get any appreciation for it!

So why do people want the Northerners to betray Stannis and kick him out of the North? How can anyone be this ungrateful? If I lived in the North, I'd be cheering his name right now. Jon? He belongs on the Wall. Rickon? Let him be Lord, not a King. It's clear that GRRM meant for Stannis to be the only King the North needs

In Stannis we trust

Oh please! Everything Stannis has done has been for the sole purpose of his own aggrandizement. He wouldnt piss on the North if it were on fire if he didn't see it as a stepping stone to the Iron Throne. Why would any Northerner support this carpetbagger who comes in and literally starts burning their gods and demanding they treat him as the king of a throne he hasn't even sniffed since the Blackwater? Succeed and defeat the Bolton and maybe you have an argument, but right now he's just another pretender.

[jentario]

LOL, I just made a thread to cut down on the amount of stannis threads. Guess I failed horribly.

But aren't you the leader of the Stanstans?

[E-Ro]

Oh please! Everything Stannis has done has been for the sole purpose of his own aggrandizement. He wouldnt piss on the North if it were on fire if he didn't see it as a stepping stone to the Iron Throne. Why would any Northerner support this carpetbagger who comes in and literally starts burning their gods and demanding they treat him as the king of a throne he hasn't even sniffed since the Blackwater? Succeed and defeat the Bolton and maybe you have an argument, but right now he's just another pretender.

Yeah, tywin smokin a blunt, you really seem to know what your talking about!

[RoamingRonin]

Trying to save them from certain death by assaulting the wall? Once they get past it they would have all been killed by the people in the north anyway.

Instead of brute force he should have tried diplomacy. At his parley at the wall he offers nothing at all other then "let us through and I won't kill you."

Mance is a fool.

Diplomacy would not have worked. That's painfully obvious. It's not until after everyone has clashed, people have died, that common sense strikes and everyone realizes they should be working together.

Even then Stannis trolls the wildlings by making them take up R'hllor before they come through.

[Chaircat Meow]

Based on what we see Stannis is easily a better commander and strategist than Jon. This is so as Stannis contrived not to blow his own command apart when he got trolled by deciding to launch a suicide run against Winterfell when he had, previously, warned against a somewhat similar plan when it was suggested earlier in the book.

[E-Ro]

But aren't you the leader of the Stanstans?

Yes. And I figured if we contained most of the stannis talk into one big thread it would be more orderly and facilitate better discussion. Of course that thread didn't stop the torrent other stannis threads(like this one) from being made.