The Jon's Daughter Trend

[Lady Howell]

I read a lot of fanfiction-something i'm sure a portion of you will frown on-but you have to admit, even if you don't like it, it does offer an insight into the fandom, just like these forums and fanart do. Now, what I'd like to disscuss is a trend i've noticed in Jon-centric fanworks, usually based in the future, in realities where R+L=J is definitely canon and Jon finds this out of course. Commonly, he is also legitimized in these fics and is either Prince or King of Westeros.

Something that also happens a lot is that if Jon has a daughter, he names her Lyanna.

I don't have a problem with Lyanna at all i just want to start off with. I didn't even bat an eye at this for a long time until recently, it struck me that there was no good reason, even if R+L=J is canon (which it is most likely) for Jon to name his daughter after Lyanna. No disrespect to Lyanna.

But...why would he, really?

Because Lyanna died when he was born, Jon was raised by Ned, motherless biologically and adoptively; he had no mother-figure growing up. And while i'm sure he'll be happy to finally learn his origins-if a little bummed Ned isn't his real dad and his real parents are deader than dead-I don't see why he'd honor his birth mother by naming a child after her.

He wasn't raised by Lyanna, which isn't her fault of course. But he also didn't grow up being given this glorious image of her in his head, even as his aunt. Ned never spoke of Jon's mother, leaving her a great mystery to him, or of Lyanna all that much either. Jon never thinks of Lyanna at all, and if he does, it's with the polite respect his father's dead sister deserves. or the pity a girl supposedly kidnapped and raped to death by a mad Targ prince deserves.

Would Jon really after finding out his heritage, name a child after either one of his dead parents? If anything, I'd think it more likely he name a daughter after Arya, Sansa, or even Ygritte or some female friend of his like Val or Gilly.

Lyanna seems like the furtherest option.

Again, no disrespect to Lyanna as a mother, but you could basically compare Jon naming a kid after her to a guy in our world who'd been adopted as a newborn from a teen mom and raised semi-happily by his adoptive parents naming a kid after his birth mother whose name and basic backstory is about all he knows about her. It would be pretty strange, and kind of insulting to his adoptive family that he'd name a child sooner after a parent he never knew than a living adoptive one or other relative he'd known and loved all his life.

Yet all the time, Lyanna's name pops up as the default name for a daughter of Jon Snow, or sometimes even Arya. Which is even stranger because I'd sooner expect Arya to name a daughter after her mother than her dead aunt who she barely knows even the most basic information about.

Why does this trend keep popping up though?

Is it lazy writing?

Is it fans of Lyanna just paying homage to her in their work without regard to realism (which is okay, since it is their fanwork after all)

Or do some people honestly see blood as good enough reason as any to name a child after someone?

That last one, if the case, ticks me off. I don't believe blood is everything personally, and the books even show us families that not even blood is enough to make them stick together and love each other. Some have better reasons than others, but in the series, it's clear that blood ties don't mean everything or constitute automatically any sort of loyalty.

Love does. Love and respect constitute a family in the series, that's why the Stark bunch are the family we all adore in the series. Because they love each other so much and respect each other. They also all have people close to them, their packs, the friends they've made along their journeys (Jon and his brothers on the Wall, Robb had Theon and his fellow soldier, Sansa...okay maybe not her, but i'm sure she'll find them, Arya with Gendry and Hotpie who I desperately hope she reunites with, Bran and the Reeds, and Rickon with Osha), which just proves that you don't have to be blood to be family or important to each other enough to risk life and limb for each other.

But sadly, Lyanna died when Jon was a baby. He never got to know her, or her him, and the love she felt for him may still lie with him, but Jon can't love a woman he never met as his mother. Whether he finds out about R+L=J or not, he still will have never had a real mother. And he'll still have no reason to name a child after Lyanna.

[Kienn]

Well people who write fanfic are generally mentally deficient, so I'm going to call it bad/lazy writing.

[Muggle]

Never got into fan fic. I find it ridiculously silly.

[Lord Lyman]

I'ld go with option 3. Fans paying homage without regards to realism.

[Cloud]

I don't mind fanfiction, but it depends on what the medium of the original text is. With literature, I think it's a big no-no. With movies/TV-shows/anime I think it's OK.

On topic:

Yes, Jon naming his daughter (if he even survives long enough to have one) Lyanna is as stupid as it is ignorant.

I find it more likely that he'll name her Ygritte, since the latter actually had an impact on his life.

ETA: Arya is also likely option IMO.

[King Pellinore]

I would believe a variation on Ygritte or Arya for a daughter of Jon. I certainly think Cat would be out of the running.

[Ygrain]

Given that Jon has been obssessing over his mother's identity all his life, I don't find that choice all that unreasonable. Furthermore, it can be a nod to Ned who loved Lyanna very much (and this is a known fact, due to the statue in the crypts). However, I do agree that Arya would be a likelier choice.

I have no problem with fanfiction as such, it's just that sifting through the lot of it to find the good ones takes awfully much time.

[Pod The Impaler]

I read a lot of fanfiction-something i'm sure a portion of you will frown on-but you have to admit, even if you don't like it, it does offer an insight into the fandom, just like these forums and fanart do. Now, what I'd like to disscuss is a trend i've noticed in Jon-centric fanworks, usually based in the future, in realities where R+L=J is definitely canon and Jon finds this out of course. Commonly, he is also legitimized in these fics and is either Prince or King of Westeros.

Something that also happens a lot is that if Jon has a daughter, he names her Lyanna.

I don't have a problem with Lyanna at all i just want to start off with. I didn't even bat an eye at this for a long time until recently, it struck me that there was no good reason, even if R+L=J is canon (which it is most likely) for Jon to name his daughter after Lyanna. No disrespect to Lyanna.

But...why would he, really?

Because Lyanna died when he was born, Jon was raised by Ned, motherless biologically and adoptively; he had no mother-figure growing up. And while i'm sure he'll be happy to finally learn his origins-if a little bummed Ned isn't his real dad and his real parents are deader than dead-I don't see why he'd honor his birth mother by naming a child after her.

He wasn't raised by Lyanna, which isn't her fault of course. But he also didn't grow up being given this glorious image of her in his head, even as his aunt. Ned never spoke of Jon's mother, leaving her a great mystery to him, or of Lyanna all that much either. Jon never thinks of Lyanna at all, and if he does, it's with the polite respect his father's dead sister deserves. or the pity a girl supposedly kidnapped and raped to death by a mad Targ prince deserves.

Would Jon really after finding out his heritage, name a child after either one of his dead parents? If anything, I'd think it more likely he name a daughter after Arya, Sansa, or even Ygritte or some female friend of his like Val or Gilly.

Lyanna seems like the furtherest option.

Again, no disrespect to Lyanna as a mother, but you could basically compare Jon naming a kid after her to a guy in our world who'd been adopted as a newborn from a teen mom and raised semi-happily by his adoptive parents naming a kid after his birth mother whose name and basic backstory is about all he knows about her. It would be pretty strange, and kind of insulting to his adoptive family that he'd name a child sooner after a parent he never knew than a living adoptive one or other relative he'd known and loved all his life.

Yet all the time, Lyanna's name pops up as the default name for a daughter of Jon Snow, or sometimes even Arya. Which is even stranger because I'd sooner expect Arya to name a daughter after her mother than her dead aunt who she barely knows even the most basic information about.

Why does this trend keep popping up though?

Is it lazy writing?

Is it fans of Lyanna just paying homage to her in their work without regard to realism (which is okay, since it is their fanwork after all)

Or do some people honestly see blood as good enough reason as any to name a child after someone?

That last one, if the case, ticks me off. I don't believe blood is everything personally, and the books even show us families that not even blood is enough to make them stick together and love each other. Some have better reasons than others, but in the series, it's clear that blood ties don't mean everything or constitute automatically any sort of loyalty.

Love does. Love and respect constitute a family in the series, that's why the Stark bunch are the family we all adore in the series. Because they love each other so much and respect each other. They also all have people close to them, their packs, the friends they've made along their journeys (Jon and his brothers on the Wall, Robb had Theon and his fellow soldier, Sansa...okay maybe not her, but i'm sure she'll find them, Arya with Gendry and Hotpie who I desperately hope she reunites with, Bran and the Reeds, and Rickon with Osha), which just proves that you don't have to be blood to be family or important to each other enough to risk life and limb for each other.

But sadly, Lyanna died when Jon was a baby. He never got to know her, or her him, and the love she felt for him may still lie with him, but Jon can't love a woman he never met as his mother. Whether he finds out about R+L=J or not, he still will have never had a real mother. And he'll still have no reason to name a child after Lyanna.

If Jon Snow had a daughter, Lyanna would be a perfectly acceptable name for her.

The reason is, she is a Stark and whether he was aware of his mother's identity or not, he'd want to honour his family heritage.

As well, to say he knows nothing of Lyanna from Ned is untrue. He knows nothing of his mother.

However, having grown up in Winterfell, he no doubt would have heard something about Lyanna from Ned, Ned's friends, the people around the castle and town. Even outside Winterfell, her reputation was well-known.

So, a female Stark just one generation about him lives and dies before her time, and he would not honour her? Any of the Stark kids might choose that name with a daughters they might have.

So if Jon found out she was the mother he never knew, would he want to keep the name alive, so to speak? It is quite likely. He'd also be quite tempted to name a daughter Arya.

Ygritte might be a name he'd like, but there is sort of unwritten rule about not naming your daughter after an ex-girlfriend; it tends to make your daughter's mother very stabby.

[Lady Howell]

I would believe a variation on Ygritte or Arya for a daughter of Jon. I certainly think Cat would be out of the running.

I hope you don't think i suggested him naming a theoretical daughter after Cat! When i mentioned Cat, i was speaking very briefly about there also being a tendency in Arya fics for her to have a daughter named Lyanna or Lya, in which case i said that Arya naming a daughter after Cat was far more likely than naming one after Lyanna.

[Winter's Knight]

Well people who write fanfic are generally mentally deficient, so I'm going to call it bad/lazy writing.

Oy.

OP, I'm guessing it's because names are generally recycled in the Stark household and to honour his mother who died giving birth to her.

[Dr. Pepper]

I agree with Ygrain that it's not all that surprising that fanfiction writers would choose Lyanna considering Jon has wondered about his mother for quite some time. Theories on this forum often suggest that Jon would be positively moved by the knowledge of his biological parents, to the point of taking the surname of one or the other so naming a daughter after a bio parent would be a reasonable translation to a piece of fanfiction.

Another issue is that fanfiction canons are often inadvertently created, or even unintentional (or intentional sometimes) fanfictions of fanfictions. Someone reads fanfic A, is inspired by something and writes fanfic B which includes a daughter named Lyanna which came from A. There's nothing wrong with this as its not altogether different from seeing theory A which inspires theory B that uses elements from A. I find fanfiction entertaining and sometimes if I read in one fandom too much, I start to confuse fanfic canon with actual canon. Not unlike how I've found myself confusing forum canon with actual text canon.

ETA: There's certainly nothing inherently deficient about those who read or write fanfiction. Some is good, some is bad. Some posters on here are good, some aren't. Some published authors good, some aren't. The only deficiency I see about fanfiction is those who call others who engage in the fanfic arena to be inherently deficient.

[Ygrain]

ETA: There's certainly nothing inherently deficient about those who read or write fanfiction. Some is good, some is bad. Some posters on here are good, some aren't. Some published authors good, some aren't. The only deficiency I see about fanfiction is those who call others who engage in the fanfic arena to be inherently deficient.

And I was so happy with the cute label :P

Funny that in some fandoms, I actually prefer some fanfics to the original stuff as they are much better writing :D

[Lady Howell]

I agree with Ygrain that it's not all that surprising that fanfiction writers would choose Lyanna considering Jon has wondered about his mother for quite some time. Theories on this forum often suggest that Jon would be positively moved by the knowledge of his biological parents, to the point of taking the surname of one or the other so naming a daughter after a bio parent would be a reasonable translation to a piece of fanfiction.

Another issue is that fanfiction canons are often inadvertently created, or even unintentional (or intentional sometimes) fanfictions of fanfictions. Someone reads fanfic A, is inspired by something and writes fanfic B which includes a daughter named Lyanna which came from A. There's nothing wrong with this as its not altogether different from seeing theory A which inspires theory B that uses elements from A. I find fanfiction entertaining and sometimes if I read in one fandom too much, I start to confuse fanfic canon with actual canon. Not unlike how I've found myself confusing forum canon with actual text canon.

ETA: There's certainly nothing inherently deficient about those who read or write fanfiction. Some is good, some is bad. Some posters on here are good, some aren't. Some published authors good, some aren't. The only deficiency I see about fanfiction is those who call others who engage in the fanfic arena to be inherently deficient.

Thank you for your post. it's nice to see a fellow appreciator of fanfiction--the good kind, at least--and I can relate to the canon problem. I have more than once fumbled over a detail in the series, trying to remember if it actually happened that way or if i read it in a fanfiction.

But on the whole Jon being moved by the knowledge of his real parentage thing. I personally never got why it appeals to so many authors; i would personally expect it to be kind of traumatizing, if not straight up sending Jon into denial and shock.

Hell, i don't even see a decent case for him ever really growing all that fond of his parents, even in memory. Maybe respect them, as his biological parents and all, but...Jon's never going to be able to get to know them, and probably will never really learn all the details of their motives in conceiving him, and if he does, the whole prophecy deal might actually end up making him resent them.

i mean, would you really take kindly to your parents making you just to fulfill a prophecy that for all they knew might not come true as they had thought--as prophecies usually do--and there's also the fact that Jon takes a lot of pride in being Ned's son, if a bastard. That would be kind of f-ed up to suddenly have that ripped away from him in favor of being the son of a guy who'd he'd heard all his life was a psychotic rapist Targaryen and a woman he'd thought was his aunt who'd died after being held captive by and raped repeatedly by the aforementioned pyscho.

I don't think Jon would like that too much...not at first...As Alfie Allen put it, it's a Luke Skywalker "I am your father" situation where Jon is sitting there screaming "No! That's impossible!" over and over and over again, except in this case, Vader (Rhaegar) isn't around to personally change Luke's (Jon's) opinion of him as a bad guy. Jon will only have word of mouth to go by, and in this world, i'm sure he's learned by now not to trust half the things anyone says. He'll always be questioning whether his parents--especially his father--were really as great as everyone makes them out to be or if everyone is just blinded by love, admiration, and loyalty. Or by the whole, absence makes the heart grow fonder effect.

With that much doubt, who would risk naming a child after people they don't even know?

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I don't think it would be unreasonable, hopfully he would know his "sisters" are alive. (Fan fiction.net took the ASOIAF fics down so where are you reading this stuff?)

[DreamSongs]

George? Hurry! We need help :(

:leaving:

[Dr. Pepper]

<snip>

But on the whole Jon being moved by the knowledge of his real parentage thing. I personally never got why it appeals to so many authors; i would personally expect it to be kind of traumatizing, if not straight up sending Jon into denial and shock.

Hell, i don't even see a decent case for him ever really growing all that fond of his parents, even in memory. Maybe respect them, as his biological parents and all, but...Jon's never going to be able to get to know them, and probably will never really learn all the details of their motives in conceiving him, and if he does, the whole prophecy deal might actually end up making him resent them.

<snip>

It's an implausible story, anyway. Jon surviving, marrying, having babies. There's a lot of happily ever after elements to it that are usually well outside of actual canon. To me, these elements of the fan fiction are way more outlandish when it comes to canon. Just considering Jon to be the same after his stabbing incident makes this sort of fan fiction seem very very fan fiction. Which is ok. Still, I think that if a fan fic author created a story that led to marriage and babies, it's reasonable that the babies might be named after his bio parents, especially Lyanna. As it stands, Jon really wants to know who his mom is. If he hears the story, the story is that she begged Ned, moments from death, to protect Jon. Regardless of how he came to be created, he could very well see that his mother held on through pain and fever just so she could use her last words to bed protection for his life.

[Lady Howell]

I don't think it would be unreasonable, hopfully he would know his "sisters" are alive. (Fan fiction.net took the ASOIAF fics down so where are you reading this stuff?)

Fanfiction.net did no such thing last time i checked...which was not even a day ago, and there's also Archives of Our Own, and stuff on Livejournal. A lot of it.

I don't think the websites take down entire sections unless explicitly told/asked to by the authors. And if they did at one point take it down, they must have brought it back up if/when someone said it was okay for people to write fanfiction of their work. That's what happened with Anne Rice's work. She said she didn't want any fanficion written about her work, until recently she said that she was okay with it because she had a change of heart. Her name was thus removed from the list of authors whose works were not allowed to have fanfics about posted on the site. Since then, at least a dozen fics have popped up at the site about her series.

Last time i checked the list, GRRM was not listed.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

It wasn't there last couple of times I looked. :shrug: & GRRM is a know foe of fan fiction. (GOT fics are still there,,,so I dunno.)

[Lady Howell]

It wasn't there last couple of times I looked. :shrug: & GRRM is a know foe of fan fiction. (GOT fics are still there,,,so I dunno.)

I just checked and there are about 2.8K fics sitting in the A Song of Ice and Fire section right now.

Again, i think the sites continue to play host to the fics until such time as legal action is taken by the author to have the site ban that certain fandom from posting. I checked, and some of those fics are really old, so you must not have been on in a long time.

GRRM might simply not be even bothering with it. Nowadays, if someone really wants to share their fanfic, there are tons of ways to do it, and blocking every road would probably be exhausting and frankly annoying for the author, i'm sure. That's why the forbidden author list is so short, because most authors, whether they love it, hate it, or just don't care, don't even bother with fanfiction. They ignore it.

It would probably only be brought seriously to his attention if someone was claiming his work as their own or greatly demeaning his work with their fanwork, in which case of course there'd be retaliation.

My guess is GRRM simply took one look at all the fanfiction and thought all the fuss everyone would make over not being allowed to share it was not worth his time or effort, and basically said, "Whatever." and then went back to his work and peacefully ignoring fanfiction's very existence.

Scratch that, it's actually 4.0K, with about 2.8K being rated K-T, while 1.2K is rated M

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I just checked, clicked "Books" & "A"...nada! So I don'tt know what is going on. Puzzling.