[BOOK SPOILERS] Watching the show if it overpasses the books [Part 2]

[DeepBlueSky]

I won't be watching season 5 if book six isn't published before it, and I may not even finish season 4 if it again shows something that might potentially be from book 6-7 as was shown in the last episode.

Of the 6 people I talk to regularly about the book/show, all but two are with me. One, says he'll watch the show no matter what, and the other hasn't even watched season 4 yet and says he probably won't due to the series shifting too far from the books already in season 3.

[sj4iy]

This is like saying Inglorious Basterds are true to the actual history, because Hitler did die in real life, and Nazis did lose the war. No, Game of Thrones is not faithful to the source material. It's much less faithful than any number of adaptations I saw. Coppola changed the setting, and the era, and the title even, but his Apocalypse Now is more faithful to Heart of Darkness than GoT is to ASOIAF.

Did I ever say that the show was completely faithful to the source material? No. I said it's close enough to be a great adaptation. There are very few completely faithful adaptations of anything that are really good, and different media requires different tactics. Books don't have time constraints, budget constraints or reality constraints. Adapting a story like GoT, with its massive scope and numerous characters, would have been nigh-on impossible for almost anyone else. We are lucky that we got a version that wasn't stripped down to the 'important characters' and the story completely rewritten to put more emphasis on those few characters.

I understand that there will always be people who get upset about a movie or tv show made about their favorite book, but what I don't understand is how people expect the show or movie to be exactly like the book...especially a series like ASOIAF that has so, so, SOOO much expendable storyline.

Oh, and I will be eagerly watching the show if and when it surpasses the books, as it doesn't matter to me how I get the story.

[Winnief]

Did I ever say that the show was completely faithful to the source material? No. I said it's close enough to be a great adaptation. There are very few completely faithful adaptations of anything that are really good, and different media requires different tactics. Books don't have time constraints, budget constraints or reality constraints. Adapting a story like GoT, with its massive scope and numerous characters, would have been nigh-on impossible for almost anyone else. We are lucky that we got a version that wasn't stripped down to the 'important characters' and the story completely rewritten to put more emphasis on those few characters.

I understand that there will always be people who get upset about a movie or tv show made about their favorite book, but what I don't understand is how people expect the show or movie to be exactly like the book...especially a series like ASOIAF that has so, so, SOOO much expendable storyline.

Oh, and I will be eagerly watching the show if and when it surpasses the books, as it doesn't matter to me how I get the story.

:cheers:

While the show falters every now and then, (coughTalisacough) I happen to think its a brilliant interpretation of Martin's work. (Though as the Sept scene showed we really REALLY need a woman in the writer's room and production team.) Hell, Martin has an occasional misstep now and then as well, and there are even times I would argue the show actually improves on what he's done. (For instance Alfie Allen and Theon's entire story arc.) So yes, I admit to having some concerns about D&D running out of material actually written by Martin to base things on, I do feel that with proper authorial guidance, (Martin's given them the whole outline and continues to write episodes for them too,) that they can bring things to a satisfying conclusion. I am certainly more than willing to extend them the chance to prove themselves.

[ramla]

You do know D&D aren't alone in this project, right? There are actors, crew members, editors, cameramen, special effects team, and so on.

You also realize nobody's chastising them for the lack of elks and crows, right? You are aware dialogue is not dependent on money, but on creativity and writing talent?

Also, you do realize neither you nor me owe anything to D&D? They're very well compensated for their work, even without your gratitude and servility. If my gratitude would help them, yeah, I could spare some. But it's just not the case. Hence, as far as storytelling goes, I'm grateful only to the people that enriched my life with remarkable stories. D&D just don't fit the description.

And, last but not least, I'm eager to see fans' reaction to the show once it overpasses the published books. Let's see how talented D&D really are. Let them show to the world what they're truly capable of. That's going to be something to behold, no doubt about it. I'm willing to wait a little longer for AWOW and ADOS, just to see that.

I agree with this!

Also, This will be my last season watching for fear of Book spoilers. I will eventually watch it, Just not b4 I read it... which may never come. Its a good show, but in comparison with it source material, its not close.

[ramla]

Actually, tell us how you'll actually feel when they do surpass the books and not only does the series reach critical acclaim beyond what they already have, but solid and loud approval from the majority of the fan base? Because that IMO is what will happen.

We'll see about that. LOL For it to do that the writing has to be far better then its shown, as far as the non-book elements.

[TaenaOfMyr]

I personally read the books in the first place not because I had a huge drive to read them, but because spoilers from the books were so out of control on the web and so often unmarked that I knew that it would be inevitable that I would have most of the major plotlines of the show spoiled for me. For example, I knew prior to the Red Wedding that Robb would die (although thankfully not how, so the Red Wedding for the most part was still a shock to me; if anything the show's episode 9 build up was more of a spoiler that something bad was going to happen there). I also knew that Joffrey would die. So I buried the hatchet after season 3 and read all 5 of the books. In hindsight I'm extremely happy I did, and am enjoying the show more than ever now that I've read the books.

For anybody who wants to remain unspoiled and avoid the show once it starts surpassing the TV show, I think you're going to run into the exact same situation as me. It will be even worse, because a hell of a lot more people watch the show than read the books. And while at least a reasonable percentage of people who read the books try to mark their spoilers, that is never going to happen once the show airs these storylines. Its basically going to come down to you either being spoiled by watching the show or staying off the web, avoiding entertainment-related magazines and shows, heck even trying to cover your ears whenever anyone who watches the show is near you and is talking about it.

Personally, if I had the choice I'd rather the books come out before the show such that I could read them before the material airs on the show. But the books will not beat the show. And I'd never be able to have the will power to stay away from watching the show, as its what got me into ASOIAF in the first place. Its unfortunate, but really only have GRRM to blame with how slow his pace has been with writing the books.

[Faint]

For those interested, from reading this interview with Michelle MacLaren, it seems the show will increasingly go beyond the bounds of the published material. Key quote:

"Dan and David are such great writers. It's exciting to see where they are going to go moving beyond the books, which is starting to happen more and more," she says.

[Xall]

I saw the first two seasons before immediately purchasing the books and reading them avidly. So I already have a distinction in how I perceive the series as 2 different aspects through 2 different media. I'll continue watching the show, and as far as I'm concerned nothing could ever spoil the magnificence and depth of George's writing.

[AnCatDubh]

Given there are probably only three seasons left after this one I reckon we'll start getting more spoilers quite soon.

I'll probably stop watching after this season, or maybe before if there are other spoilers soon. But as someone has mentioned I don't know how I'm gonna be able to avoid spoilers completely, especially for the 7th book. Hoping book 6 comes out in about a year, anyway before season 6, so avoiding major spoilers. But after that... Gonna be very tricky.

I take so much more pleasure in discovering what happens through the books, there is much more time while reading to elaborate theories and getting "aha" moments. It takes at least ten times longer to read than watch and I like imagining scenes in my head rather than having them pre-made for me.

Ah well :((( really bummed about this. I hope at least it makes GRRM a bit stressed out and wanting to really get going. I think it's got out of hands for him somewhat.

[Frey Pies]

I think D&D's adaptation has surpassed GRRM's sprawling juggernaut, so I'll definitely continue watching.

I'm so excited about the prospect of being an unsullied for (maybe) Season 6 and (definitely) Season 7!

[Zombies That Were Promised]

I'm worried about the pacing of the overall adaptation. 7 or 8 seasons seems to be a given, and we have spent 4 of them on essentially the first 3 of 7 books. Sure, AFFC/ADWD might have a lot to cut out, but TWOW and ADOS have to be at least as eventful as ASOS to satisfactorily close out the series and all its characters.

I just see the adaptation of the 2 unpublished books being rushed as hell. And I predict that I will be upset we spent so much time in ASOS when I'd have preferred we stretched out TWOW/ADOS, because I can see Iron Islands & Dorne being serious players in the climax of the story and we aren't seeing them until Season 5 of 7 or 8. This might produce a butterfly effect worse than Jaime/Brienne where those 2 nations don't factor in as much as they should, IMO.

Maybe some of my premise is wrong. It's just a nitpick, and a way too early "what could have been" rant. ;)

[Faint]

I'm worried about the pacing of the overall adaptation. 7 or 8 seasons seems to be a given, and we have spent 4 of them on essentially the first 3 of 7 books. Sure, AFFC/ADWD might have a lot to cut out, but TWOW and ADOS have to be at least as eventful as ASOS to satisfactorily close out the series and all its characters.

I just see the adaptation of the 2 unpublished books being rushed as hell. And I predict that I will be upset we spent so much time in ASOS when I'd have preferred we stretched out TWOW/ADOS, because I can see Iron Islands & Dorne being serious players in the climax of the story and we aren't seeing them until Season 5 of 7 or 8. This might produce a butterfly effect worse than Jaime/Brienne where those 2 nations don't factor in as much as they should, IMO.

Your concern is valid but the facts are not quite as dire as you make them seem. As I remarked on another thread, using the point-of-view characters as guideposts, Davos and Bran have already completed all of their material preceding A Dance with Dragons. Arya and Daenerys have less than half a chapter left from their respective stories in A Storm of Swords. Sansa only has five total chapters left of published material. And Brienne is already commencing her arc from A Feast for Crows starting the next time she appears. The same is true of Theon Greyjoy, who is already into his A Dance with Dragons chapters.

So, in truth, Benioff and Weiss are already in the process of adapting A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons this season. In fact, besides events in King's Landing and at the Wall, which are lagging behind everything else (artificially so, actually), every other part of the story will be well into A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons before the fourth season premier.

[HairGrowsBack]

What i don't get is, we have on the one hand Michelle Mclaren saying we'll get to see 'not from the books' or 'spoilery' scenes and valid reasons to believe we'll have some TWoW next season, and on the other hand another writer (can't remeber who) stating next season will stay within the boundaries of the published books... Can someone enlighten me here ?

Imo, if they don't start having TWoW material for some arcs next season, their endgame will be rushed as hell. (That being said, they, unlike me do know what this engame is so I guess we should trust them)

[Hath4]

Your concern is valid but the facts are not quite as dire as you make them seem. As I remarked on another thread, using the point-of-view characters as guideposts, Davos and Bran have already completed all of their material preceding A Dance with Dragons. Arya and Daenerys have less than half a chapter left from their respective stories in A Storm of Swords. Sansa only has five total chapters left of published material. And Brienne is already commencing her arc from A Feast for Crows starting the next time she appears. The same is true of Theon Greyjoy, who is already into his A Dance with Dragons chapters.

So, in truth, Benioff and Weiss are already in the process of adapting A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons this season. In fact, besides events in King's Landing and at the Wall, which are lagging behind everything else (artificially so, actually), every other part of the story will be well into A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons before the fourth season premier.

well I would disagree with that last statement take reek for example, they are really only scratching the surface with his arc, they are only going as far as moat Cailin. So there is still a lot of material left, the only major thing I see from wow being in season 5 is the battle of fire.

[Faint]

well I would disagree with that last statement take reek for example, they are really only scratching the surface with his arc, they are only going as far as moat Cailin. So there is still a lot of material left, the only major thing I see from wow being in season 5 is the battle of fire.

You have the right of it that the Theon material does not extend very much into A Dance with Dragons, but it is a start, and not an inconsiderable one. The scenes at Moat Cailin actually occur during his second chapter from the book and he only has seven. So if they do get through that chapter during the fourth season, they will have already completed more than a fourth of Theon's material from the book.

[Faint]

What i don't get is, we have on the one hand Michelle Mclaren saying we'll get to see 'not from the books' or 'spoilery' scenes and valid reasons to believe we'll have some TWoW next season, and on the other hand another writer (can't remeber who) stating next season will stay within the boundaries of the published books... Can someone enlighten me here ?

My conclusion is that they are speaking in general terms. The overwhelming amount of material they are covering this and next season will come from published material but undoubtedly there will be spoilers sneaking through here and there.

[Hath4]

Yes but winterfell is were the meet is in that story. those 5 chapters could easily become 8 episodes next year.

[D-Shiznit]

The more they streamline the story going forward the better, especially with only 3 season left. I want overwhleming focus on Dany, Starks, WW and Lannisters, no need to waste too much time on Stannis/Faux-Aegon/Greyjoys/Martells/Sam/Tyrells/Theon/Boltons etc

[Zombies That Were Promised]

Faint, I agree. I think it's because of the sprinkling-in future book content (which I hope continues) that my worry grows since it gets harder for me to predict and I just have to wait. :P

I will be frank, that I haven't read ACOK yet, but apparently the who and how differed in Season 2 but produced the same results. (i.e. Winterfell, Harrenhal) So what I was trying to get at, is that while D&D knows the endgame, I can see the who and how differing very much on page in TWOW/ADOS, like ACOK differed. That would irk me very much, which is why I've yet to read ACOK, because I think Season 2 is amazing.

[Seneti]

I'm worried about the pacing of the overall adaptation. 7 or 8 seasons seems to be a given, and we have spent 4 of them on essentially the first 3 of 7 books. Sure, AFFC/ADWD might have a lot to cut out, but TWOW and ADOS have to be at least as eventful as ASOS to satisfactorily close out the series and all its characters.

I just see the adaptation of the 2 unpublished books being rushed as hell. And I predict that I will be upset we spent so much time in ASOS when I'd have preferred we stretched out TWOW/ADOS, because I can see Iron Islands & Dorne being serious players in the climax of the story and we aren't seeing them until Season 5 of 7 or 8. This might produce a butterfly effect worse than Jaime/Brienne where those 2 nations don't factor in as much as they should, IMO.

Well, given how far into AFFC/ADWD territory some characters are (or will be by the end of season 4) I think it's safe to say that we'll get all the rest of those two books in season 5, plus the first parts of TWOW (I think the Battle of Meereen, for example, will be at the end of season 5). That leaves us with two seasons, possibly three, for the remaining 3/4 of TWOW (estimate) and all of ADOS. Remember also what D&D said about the universe shrinking from here on out (read: lots of named character deaths and converging of storylines). I think they can do it.

As for your second part about II and Dorne: I think that they are going to cut and converge those storylines, too:

Iron Islands:

- no Aeron, no Tristifer, no Quarl

- truncated Kingsmoot

- truncated journeys of Victarion

Dorne:

- cut/merged Sandsnakes (see the specific thread in the General GoT forum)

- truncated Queenmaker storyline

- truncated Quentyn storyline (one scene in Dorne with Doran, rejection in Meereen, dragon taming fail)

That, plus the shrinking/converging of existing storylines will probably give them enough room to maneuver.

What i don't get is, we have on the one hand Michelle Mclaren saying we'll get to see 'not from the books' or 'spoilery' scenes and valid reasons to believe we'll have some TWoW next season, and on the other hand another writer (can't remeber who) stating next season will stay within the boundaries of the published books... Can someone enlighten me here ?

I read it as: Season 4 = storyline from AFFC/ADWD with sprinkles of TWOW for characters with very little material and the occasional, not necessarily minor spoiler from TWOW and ADOS (see the last three minutes of ep. 4.04)