Tywin's greatest mistake?

[Mark Antony]

Tyrion literally murdered Tywin so yeah clearly his biggest mistake :D

[Faydra]

Defying Aerys. That's where his ill luck started.

[TheKitttenGuard]

If I had to say just one, it would be putting any sort of trust or expectations in Cersei, and by extension Joffrey.

He also made several blunders in the name of "pragmatism" but a closer expectation reveals he did it for pride.

For starters, Tyrion called him out correctly saying it was a bad move to kill the Rhaegar's children, and it was doubly bad to kill Elia though Tywin maintains plausible deniability. Take the city for a quicker end to the war under a false banner is treachery enough. Killing the children might have earned him Robert's good will, but earned him the enmity of Eddard Stark. The rape and murder of Elia made him an enemy of the Martells.

Why should Tywinn care in any manner about Eddard Stark's enmity torwards him?

You are right about Elia and The Martells.

[Frey Pie]

Why should Tywinn care in any manner about Eddard Stark's enmity torwards him?

You are right about Elia and The Martells.

I dunno at this stage Ned is in an extremely strong position. He's leader of the North, who had no internal war unlike several other regions. His best buddy/adopted brother is the King. His adopted father is the leader of the Vale and his actual father in law is the leader of the Riverlands. Furthermore he treated with Mace and forged a peace with him. Politically at this time Ned is in an extremely strong position

[HosteenOsteen]

Being too willing to engage evil subordinates and/or associates to do things he would never wish to be caught doing himself.

[Big Daddy]

He picked the wrong privy.

[Mirri Maz Durr]

nvm

[TalalOfDorne]

I dont know what would be considered the "biggest", but theres lots of them:

Showing strong favoritism and dislike with his children

Not realizing that his kids arent his slaves.

Not training Cersei even though he wanted/expected her to be in a high position in the Kingdom.

Not realizing Tyrions potential.

Almost all of his actions concerning Dorne.

Made more enemies than freinds.

Destroyed the familys' reputation.

Allowed his pride to control him.

Used unnecessarily cruel methods when they were not needed.

Enforcing and spreading hate between family members.

And on and on it goes.

[Winnief]

Tywin's biggest mistake in the end may be "The Rains of Castamere," he essentially started a trend of extinguishing entire Households-and now that might well happen to his own House. Live by the sword, die by the sword...

[Khal BlackfyreO]

While this all may happen, from the information we have now its all just conjecture.

The North is heavily divided between people loyal to Bolton, Stannis, Stark and probably some independents in there as well.

The Lannister-Tyrell alliance still control the South despite some scheming from Dorne (which they've been doing for 20 years, to little effect) and a few thousand troops landing in the Stormlands waiting for some elephants.

As for Tywin constantly being blamed for his children's failings, absolute twaddle. His kids are all adults, mid 30's in the twins case, is he expected to be blamed for all their mistakes they make in adult life?

Cersei: Made her the Queen of Westeros and her Children future Kings. At the time of his death she was in control of her own destiny, her enemies vanquished and the Tryrells very much the jnr partner. She screwed up.

Jaime: At the time of his death Jaime was the Lord Commander of the KingsGuard, one of the most influential positions in the Kingdom. Tywin had even arranged for him to be released of his vows and to inherit Casterly Rock and the Westernlands. He turned it down.

Tyrion: A little younger than the twins but his father made him Hand of the King and all through his life let him have the money and the freedom to do as he pleased. All Tywin asked of him was to stop the (very public) whoring and drunkeness that made him infamous throughout the Kingdom. Had he done this, or been more discreet maybe he would of been considered a worthy heir. Had he married earlier to a noble Lady and started producing abled heirs he probably would of got Casterly Rock. Tywins' problems with Tyrion are about his debauchery, not his height.

No one in the north is truly loyal to the Boltons except the Karstarks. Most are biding their time (Manderly) or playing both sides (Umber, and the conjecture on them is that they are double agents against Bolton). Only the Freys and the blessing of the IT are keeping them in check, for now.

Those with Stannis only see him as a means to an end and even if they do support him for the iron throne that doesn't mean they are Anti-Stark. Jon suggested gaining their support by winning back the North from the hated Boltons.

I think calling the North heavily divided is an exaggeration. The North is probably 90% Stark supporters, the only problem is, there are no Starks.

Pro-Starks have a will to fight but no one to lay their hopes on. To their knowledge the Stark family has been wiped out or disappeared, so they need a Stark to get behind. Manderly sent Davos out to solve that.

I also think calling the joining of the Lannisters and the Tyrells an 'alliance' is an exaggeration. At least it wasn't totally based on fear, but it was only a mutually beneficial situation that has resulted in:

1. Almost losing Sansa to Highgarden

2. The Purple Wedding

- Tywins death as an indirect result of the Purple wedding

-really losing Sansa as an much more direct result of the Purple wedding

2. Cersei and Margary's imprisonment

3. Cersei's subsequent total loss of prestige

4. Loras getting fried and nearly dying.

They obviously have a strong alliance based on mutual respect. Sorry if my irony is dripping. And granted Cersei was the culprit of a lot of that but the Tyrells made the first move when they killed Joff, and Cersei turned against them, without even realizing it!

The kids are responsible for their own actions, true, but Cersei actual referring in text to her Father and his methods when making her own usually horrible decisions definitely puts a tiny bit of the blame on Tywin, right??

How did Tyrion NOT become more discreet with his whoring? He stuck with one girl who nobody even knew who she was until there was a friggin murder investigation into his affairs. At which point Tywin oh so quietly took his son's whore to bed with him, just slightly hypocritical, don't ya think??

[Frey Pie]

I dont know what would be considered the "biggest", but theres lots of them:

Showing strong favoritism and dislike with his children

Not realizing that his kids arent his slaves.

Not training Cersei even though he wanted/expected her to be in a high position in the Kingdom.

Not realizing Tyrions potential.

Almost all of his actions concerning Dorne.

Made more enemies than freinds.

Destroyed the familys' reputation.

Allowed his pride to control him.

Used unnecessarily cruel methods when they were not needed.

Enforcing and spreading hate between family members.

And on and one it goes.

True that!!

For one of probably the more clever characters in the series he has made a few blunders

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

There's an art to knowing when to stop pushing people. His greatest mistake was thinking everyone will always stand idly by while he runs them down and humiliates them.

[The Black Viper of Dorne]

Morally: everything that happened during the sack of King's Landing. Practically: the way he treated Tyrion, especially with Tysha. If it hadn't been for Tyrion's hatred of him, he wouldn't have been killed and would (theoretically) continue to de facto rule the kingdom. He may have done some terrible things, but he succeeded in accomplishing his goal: improving the position of his house. His success is being undone primarily because of Cersei. His house risks being extinguished because of Jaime's position in the Kingsguard and Tyrion's unwillingness to consummate his marriage.

[UVA]

great summary!

You nailed the greatest hits as far as I'm concerned.

[Jasta11]

While this all may happen, from the information we have now its all just conjecture.

The North is heavily divided between people loyal to Bolton, Stannis, Stark and probably some independents in there as well.

The Lannister-Tyrell alliance still control the South despite some scheming from Dorne (which they've been doing for 20 years, to little effect) and a few thousand troops landing in the Stormlands waiting for some elephants.

As for Tywin constantly being blamed for his children's failings, absolute twaddle. His kids are all adults, mid 30's in the twins case, is he expected to be blamed for all their mistakes they make in adult life?

Cersei: Made her the Queen of Westeros and her Children future Kings. At the time of his death she was in control of her own destiny, her enemies vanquished and the Tryrells very much the jnr partner. She screwed up.

Jaime: At the time of his death Jaime was the Lord Commander of the KingsGuard, one of the most influential positions in the Kingdom. Tywin had even arranged for him to be released of his vows and to inherit Casterly Rock and the Westernlands. He turned it down.

Tyrion: A little younger than the twins but his father made him Hand of the King and all through his life let him have the money and the freedom to do as he pleased. All Tywin asked of him was to stop the (very public) whoring and drunkeness that made him infamous throughout the Kingdom. Had he done this, or been more discreet maybe he would of been considered a worthy heir. Had he married earlier to a noble Lady and started producing abled heirs he probably would of got Casterly Rock. Tywins' problems with Tyrion are about his debauchery, not his height.

I don't think people mean that how the Lannisters ended up is due entirely to him, but him being a bad father and not recognizing the problems they had didn't help at all.

His big mistake in this matter was not picking up on the twincest, which damaged the Lannister cause more than anything anyone in the family has ever done in recent memory. Perhaps Cercei and Jaime were subtle about it, yet it's all but confirmed Tyrion knew and it's not like he spent all his time with his dear sister. Granted, Cercei is such a complete trainwreck of a person that I don't think Tywin could have changed her that much, but still, it's obvious she needed affection and care when she was young, and got a whole lot of neither.

As for Jaime, Tywin's unwillingness or inability to see that his chosen heir doesn't give a rat's ass about Lannister legacy is also pretty telling. It's not like this is an unimportant matter. Jaime jumped at the occasion to join the KG, and showed absolutely no signs that he wanted to leave. Yet Tywin still thinks he can just change that with a short chat. Doesn't work that way buddy.

And Tyrion... oh lord where to begin. First, it's very obvious he dislikes Tyrion no matter what (he killed his mother at birth being an argument, as if it was the Imp's fault somehow). Then, about Tyrion whoring around and drinking, oh, I don't know, maybe it has something to do with seeing his first crush/love being raped in front of him by a barrack of guardsmen and forced to participate? Being shown very clearly, at the age of 13, that the only way he would ever have a women is if he paid her? Pretty sure that would encourage anyone to start whore-mongering. On that front, this is almost entirely Tywin's fault. He created his own monster. He could easily have talked it over with his son; indeed, the marriage should have been a warning signal that the Imp needs affection and needs it badly, so maybe it's time to actually talk to him and sort out those wrongs. But nope, Tywin tolerates no half-measures, so let's emotionally break the kid forever and then act surprised when you find out his moral compass is all over the place and he finds affection in whatever arms he pays to hold him. Tyrion could have been Tywin's most precious ally, a smart, cunning, ruthless son who could (and indeed, has) done more than any of his siblings for his House. Even Genna sees it. But blinded as he was, Tywin saw only a dwarf that he needed to hate because reasons, without even pausing to think about the hows and whys of this state of affair.

Also, I've always found it bizzare that Tyrion whoring and drinking is apparently a Very Bad Thing, yet the King himself does it all the time and nobody bats an eyelash; indeed, it seems Robert was fairly respected by most. I get that the King can get away with things others can't, but still. Tywin's obsession with that seems fairly irrational. I don't think a lot of people would be overly surprised that an ugly, deformed dwarf had to resort to whores in order to get sexytime, and lots of nobles (Tywin included) don't seem averse to having their fun either, even otherwise upright guys like Edmure. I mean, you'd think your chosen heir being in a position where he can't inherit land and titles would be more of a concern, no?

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

To say Tywin isn't responsible for his children's behavior is a major cop out. Parents raise their kids, and when those kids turn out to be arrogant jerks with superiority complexes its probably your fault. Sure they are adults but they were once kids with a parent who showed them no love or empathy, two important needs for healthy child development. Cersei is likely a psychopath but even psychopaths can become healthy productive people given proper upbringing. If not raised correctly you get Cersei or Joffrey.

[Winnief]

Even if we don't hold Tywin responsible for his children's behavior, we *can* hold him responsible for blinding himself to it. He never understood Jaime or Tyrion, and he seems to have practiced some willful blindness where Cersei is concerned. He NEVER should have have let her get into a position with even a little power, (he should have had her surrender her Regency to someone else, and send her back to CR from the start) and he should have taken steps to separate the Twins, thus preventing incestuous bastards being put on the Iron throne.

[Chaircat Meow]

Even if we don't hold Tywin responsible for his children's behavior, we *can* hold him responsible for blinding himself to it. He never understood Jaime or Tyrion ...

I don't know about that. I think Tywin might have understood Tyrion reasonably well. They are rather similar and he reacted so badly to being told so I tend to assume he knew it was true. Maybe he didn't know Jaime very well but there wasn't much to be done with him apart from ask him to leave the KG, which he refused to do.

and he seems to have practiced some willful blindness where Cersei is concerned. He NEVER should have have let her get into a position with even a little power, (he should have had her surrender her Regency to someone else, and send her back to CR from the start) and he should have taken steps to separate the Twins, thus preventing incestuous bastards being put on the Iron throne.

Tywin did send Tyrion to take over when he realized poor decisions were being made, and he planned to move Cersei away from King's Landing in SoS and marry her to a Tyrell.

The Twins being together in King's Landing was not something Tywin wanted. He didn't want Jaime in the KG, but he did want Cersei to be Queen, so that's how that happened. He didn't plan for them to be together like they were, Jaime was to marry Lysa after all.

[HMR]

I think the "whores" mention is pretty spot on.

[TheKitttenGuard]

I dunno at this stage Ned is in an extremely strong position. He's leader of the North, who had no internal war unlike several other regions. His best buddy/adopted brother is the King. His adopted father is the leader of the Vale and his actual father in law is the leader of the Riverlands. Furthermore he treated with Mace and forged a peace with him. Politically at this time Ned is in an extremely strong position

Robert was pleased with Tywinn being the bad guy in the instance. From all evidence in the book Robert was in murderous with anything Targaryan. It is just killing the children was going much against his Heroic image. Tywinn remove that decision for Robert and Robert was pleased with it.

Jon Arryn advised on the Robert/Cersei union.

So all Ned stated powerful position did not amount to much.

This is crackpot due to no contextual citing outside some the correspondence stated that try to prusade Tywinn to join the Rebellion. Tywinn had to know somewhat of Robert's mindset torward the Targaryan children before he will commit his move. It was extremely risking mobe since it involve children. He would not do something out of pure spite that could have great consequences with other Lords.

Elia was the error. Either wanting her dead due to her being chosen as Rhaeger bride or he did not care enough to order no harm to her from Gregor it caused making an enemy of Martells and have long term consequence. As cold as it is, having a heredity based system means children and babes need to secure your claim if needed. This is one of the prince for all the Rights and Privileges you have as Nobility.