The Most Unforgivable, Irredeemable Act in ASOIAF?

[Kienn]

I'm surprised so many actions are being favored over child murder...

[Wisenan69]

The brutal murder of Elia and her children

Jamie crippling Bran for life

Tisha rape at Tywin's command

The Red Wedding

Everything that the Boltons do

Aery's killing of Brandon and Rickard Stark

Cersei's existence

Danerys killing children and innocent people

[littleRickon]

Looking forward to the point where Wyman Manderly tells the Freys that they ate their cousins.

100% justified, bad-ass, sweet redemption, but also pretty damn f**ked up.

[Minstral]

I'm surprised so many actions are being favored over child murder...

I think more along the lines of what those in the setting would be considered "unforgivable", that being those that act in the profane. The insult and intentional desecration of people and places is somehow more unforgivable to those in the books than what could be seen as "well that happens in war". In the example of the jeyne wedding, there was a time where Theon was ruminating he thinks the Gods through the tree and laughing, while Lord Locke is later wailing that the Gods had cursed the whole lot of them for partaking in the wedding.

[starkbannerman87]

When u say Rhaegar, I'm assuming u mean when Robert murdered him at the Trident

No that was his just desserts.

I hold him responsible for the near extinction of his whole family and countless innocents.

[Tony of House Stark]

Anything Gregor has ever done, anything Ramsay has ever done, Red Wedding, Tysha.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

No that was his just desserts.

I hold him responsible for the near extinction of his whole family and countless innocents.

Preposterous

[Mourneblade]

I'm surprised so many actions are being favored over child murder...

Seriously? The whole process of the Unsullied includes infanticide.

I also think people are also trying to be original as well as opposed to being callous to the death of children.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Ser Gregor Clegane, The White Knight's Death. Gods it was an emotional and painful scene. Pycelle should've given him Tears of Lys. Seriously fuck pycelle.

RIP, Gregor. "For you were the unloved". :crying:

[sapphire_lion]

I'm surprised so many actions are being favored over child murder...

Two of mine included child murder. it seemed like hundreds of kids were killed in the rape of Saltpans. Also, a kid was killed in Cersei's dwarf genocide. Someone tried to pass off his head as Tyrion's.

[Sansa_Stark]

Cersei's darkest crime specifically was either Barra or Falyse. The former was done mostly out of spite imo. The latter was just jaw dropping in how she can be so heartless

[Sansa_Stark]

Also. Ramsays treatment of Jeyne is equal to what happened to Tysha imo.

[Queen of Whores]

Also. Ramsays treatment of Jeyne is equal to what happened to Tysha imo.

I personally think it's even worse. Jeyne's comments about the dog are very disturbing, to say the least.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

I personally think it's even worse. Jeyne's comments about the dog are very disturbing, to say the least.

Especially considering how she came to be fArya Stark in the first place

Goes to Kings Landing, friends and family killed, etc.

[Adara]

I personally think it's even worse. Jeyne's comments about the dog are very disturbing, to say the least.

Especially considering how she came to be fArya Stark in the first place

Goes to Kings Landing, friends and family killed, etc.

So true, both of it. I still don't know who to pity most, her or Theon. And I didn't like them in the beginning, both where such annoying brats.

[Koi No Yokan]

It's kinda hard to top the Red Wedding, especially when you consider what happened afterwards (bodies being despoiled and made a mockery of).

But there's also the raping of Tysha, Elia and her children, Saltpans, the beheading of Ned, Craster, Jeyne Pool's abuse, Reek... yeah, pretty much anything Ramsay's involved in.

[Harle The Handsome]

Four pages and not one single person mentions throwing a child out a window? Is it just because he lived?

[CreativeName]

I think what we really condemn in people is the concious decision to do harm.

With that in mind, I guess the overall actions of Ramsay Bolton (hunting, torturing and killing innocents) are one of the most despicable in the entire series. He is a real psychopath and an almost entirely 'black character'.

That being said... (I put on my magical hat that makes me completely dispassionate, here) To answer the OP: From my point of view no act is irredeemable, unvorgivable. I know, I'm probably pretty alone on that one...But do you say that people like Ramsay can't be saved in any meaningful way? IMHO that's a really antiquated world view that's not compatible with our modern scientific understanding of the world. It's black-and-white thinking.

Lets make a thought-experiment: If I would switch places with Ramsay (in his mother's womb), atom for atom, I would *be* him. Ok? I would've had the same genes, the same upbringing, the same experiences, the same neuro-physiology, the exact same mental health. There is no extra part of me that would prevent me from acting the same way he did. And there is no extra part of you, either.

At the very least, you have to admit that he is very unlucky to be the person who he his. He is the son of Roose Bolton, for f***s sake! He didn't choose who he is. Again: Didn't choose his genes, didn't choose his upbringing, his family, his environment, his experiences, the forming of his central nervous system, the point of history in which he arrives, the society he is born in etc. etc.

Don't get me wrong: If Ramsay should die in the next books, I won't waste any tears or second thoughts over the fact. Everybody is clearly better off that way. And you have to admit (unless you are a total pacifist) that this is what weapons are for. Defending yourself and others against people like Ramsay. In the real world he should be locked up the rest of his pathetic life and I'm probably ok with it.

Nonetheless: Viewing people like Ramsay through a wider scientific spectrum of the (real) world helps me to appreciate their charcter arcs more and to feel empathy and compassion even for them.

(Just for clarity: To make all of this work you have to be in consensus with modern science, i.e. determinism, randomness, no free-will. If you want to argue against my opinion or think it doesn't make any sense, you're probably not. And I don't mean that in any offensive way. I just wanted to give my opinion on the subject in all honesty.)

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Four pages and not one single person mentions throwing a child out a window? Is it just because he lived?

I will start by saying this-- I do not condone the throwing of children out of windows.

But, I find Jaime's reasoning for throwing the kid out the window to be more understandable than, say, Ramsay's decision to rape and torment Jeyne Poole. Or his decision to hunt women, or what he did to Donella Hornwood. I view Jaime in a favorable light, whereas I can't say the same about Ramsay.

Hypothetically, lets say Jaime didn't push Bran out the window. If Bran tells anyone what he saw, there is an excellent chance that he, Cersei, Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are put to the sword. So, he acted to protect those he loved. It was a terrible thing, but I don't think it makes him an absolute monster.

I think what we really condemn in people is the concious decision to do harm.

With that in mind, I guess the overall actions of Ramsay Bolton (hunting, torturing and killing innocents) are one of the most despicable in the entire series. He is a real psychopath and an almost entirely 'black character'.

That being said... (I put on my magical hat that makes me completely dispassionate, here) To answer the OP: From my point of view no act is irredeemable, unvorgivable. I know, I'm probably pretty alone on that one...But do you say that people like Ramsay can't be saved in any meaningful way? IMHO that's a really antiquated world view that's not compatible with our modern scientific understanding of the world. It's black-and-white thinking.

Lets make a thought-experiment: If I would switch places with Ramsay (in his mother's womb), atom for atom, I would *be* him. Ok? I would've had the same genes, the same upbringing, the same experiences, the same neuro-physiology, the exact same mental health. There is no extra part of me that would prevent me from acting the same way he did. And there is no extra part of you, either.

At the very least, you have to admit that he is very unlucky to be the person who he his. He is the son of Roose Bolton, for f***s sake! He didn't choose who he is. Again: Didn't choose his genes, didn't choose his upbringing, his family, his environment, his experiences, the forming of his central nervous system, the point of history in which he arrives, the society he is born in etc. etc.

Don't get me wrong: If Ramsay should die in the next books, I won't waste any tears or second thoughts over the fact. Everybody is clearly better off that way. And you have to admit (unless you are a total pacifist) that this is what weapons are for. Defending yourself and others against people like Ramsay. In the real world he should be locked up the rest of his pathetic life and I'm probably ok with it.

Nonetheless: Viewing people like Ramsay through a wider scientific spectrum of the (real) world helps me to appreciate their charcter arcs more and to feel empathy and compassion even for them.

(Just for clarity: To make all of this work you have to be in consensus with modern science, i.e. determinism, randomness, no free-will. If you want to argue against my opinion or think it doesn't make any sense, you're probably not. And I don't mean that in any offensive way. I just wanted to give my opinion on the subject in all honesty.)

Well thanks, now I'm all offended :devil:

[Sansa_Stark]

Four pages and not one single person mentions throwing a child out a window? Is it just because he lived?

It wasn't morally black but it was despicable. Cersei killing Barra was much worse.]