Lady Howell Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 You told a polite white lie whose consequence was, at most, some minor digestive discomfort. Sansa told a polite white lie whose consequence led to a major lie and the death of Lady and Mycah. Your example is a molehill, Sansa's a mountain. How was she supposed to know going out for a ride with the boy she had a crush on was going to end in bloodshed? And if you speak of her lying at the trial, then again, what was she supposed to think would happen? She lied, saying she didn't remember, because it was the only way seemingly that no one would get hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Oh boy are you insinuating that Sansa is responsible for Lysa's death?I'm surprised it took two whole pages.Popcorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Voldemort's Toes Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 How was she supposed to know going out for a ride with the boy she had a crush on was going to end in bloodshed? And if you speak of her lying at the trial, then again, what was she supposed to think would happen? She lied, saying she didn't remember, because it was the only way seemingly that no one would get hurt. Eh, but how do you know that her reason for saying she didn't remember was "because that was the only way no one would get hurt?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grail King Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 You mean the little bitty lie that she is LF's bastard daughter, not Lysa's niece? That turned out as well for Lysa as it did for Lady and Mycah. Tread careful here, Baleish caused this problem and it was on purpose to get Lysa jealous and once again place Sansa as an accomplice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Not really. Both Arya and Joffrey said that Arya hit him. Sansa's version was not to confirm or deny that. There was enough information for Arya to be punished if Robert so chose. Anyways, GRRM said that they had issues that they need to work out. But I don't think he said that they will. She's not guaranteed to see Sansa again at all. So many say that she's going to see Sansa but not her other siblings but that's just fan wish. There isn't foreshadowing or anything in interviews that guarantees it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpringKing Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 How was she supposed to know going out for a ride with the boy she had a crush on was going to end in bloodshed? And if you speak of her lying at the trial, then again, what was she supposed to think would happen? She lied, saying she didn't remember, because it was the only way seemingly that no one would get hurt. She didnt know the white lie that she loved riding would cascade into tragedy. But the conclusion of Sansa 1 AFFC, make the grimly ironic point that even well-meant lies can have dire unforeseen consequences - "If a lie was kindly meant, there was no harm in it." That entire chapter is about lies, central among which is LF and Sansa's big lie concerning Lysa's murder. This is when the mentoring between LF and Sansa, that OP questions, takes place. “Some lies are love,” Petyr had assured her. She reminded him of that. “When we lied to Lord Robert, that was just to spare him,” she said. “And this lie may spare us. Else you and I must leave the Eyrie by the same door Lysa used.” Petyr picked up his quill again. “We shall serve him lies and Arbor gold, and he’ll drink them down and ask for more, I promise you.” He is serving me lies as well, Sansa realized. They were comforting lies, though, and she thought them kindly meant. A lie is not so bad if it is kindly meant. If only she believed them... ... Petyr caught her by the wrist. “You see the wonders that can be worked with lies and Arbor gold?” The lie Sansa tells about not knowing what happened between Joff & Arya is a counterpoint to the lie she and LF tell about Lysa's death. It establishes her willingness to lie as well as her ability to believe her own lies ("It was all Arya's fault"). At the Eyrie, LF is preying on her facility for dishonesty and self delusion. Entangled in a web of lies woven by a wizard in the art, Sansa is understandably disoriented, but seems determined to continue. No, Sansa didnt kill Lysa, nor did her lie. But just as her lie to protect Joff made her complicit in Mycah's death, so too did her lie to protect LF make her an accomplice in Marilion's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpringKing Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Eh, but how do you know that her reason for saying she didn't remember was "because that was the only way no one would get hurt?" Because not remembering seemed the best way to split the middle between backing Joff in an all-out lie, at Arya's expense, and telling the truth to her own detriment - losing Joff. It isnt just happenstance that, of the 3 kids who testify, GRRM punishes Sansa most harshly, with Lady's death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Because not remembering seemed the best way to split the middle between backing Joff in an all-out lie, at Arya's expense, and telling the truth to her own detriment - losing Joff. It isnt just happenstance that, of the 3 kids who testify, GRRM punishes Sansa most harshly, with Lady's death. Because striking a prince of the blood is a crime punishable by death, had she "told the truth" there is every likelihood that she thought she'd be condemning her own sister as guilty of that crime. And don't you think Joffrey being dead now is a pretty severe outcome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Arya told the truth too. Joffrey's truth and Arya's truth involve her hitting him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Voldemort's Toes Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Because not remembering seemed the best way to split the middle between backing Joff in an all-out lie, at Arya's expense, and telling the truth to her own detriment - losing Joff. It isnt just happenstance that, of the 3 kids who testify, GRRM punishes Sansa most harshly, with Lady's death. So you're saying she lied selfishly instead of selflessly. I thought the poster I quoted was saying the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocoalover1956 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Because not remembering seemed the best way to split the middle between backing Joff in an all-out lie, at Arya's expense, and telling the truth to her own detriment - losing Joff. It isnt just happenstance that, of the 3 kids who testify, GRRM punishes Sansa most harshly, with Lady's death. Well that doesn't make any sense, seeing Sansa caused the least amount of trouble. She lied (maybe, I'm inclined to think she really didn't remember) but Joffrey and Arya were physically violent to each, (and Joffrey to Mycah, and Arya to Sansa). But anyway, this scene shows that Sansa is clever in some respects, that sometimes you have to stay neutral, that you can't always tell the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cubarey Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 "(Once in the throne room when he prevents Ned from joining in a losing battle against the Gold Cloaks, " Which is after he agreed to buy the GoldCloaks for Ned but instead sides with the Lannister's. Also LF is the one that sets the Starks on Tyrian's trail as the person who hired the assassin that tried to kill Bran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Voldemort's Toes Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Well that doesn't make any sense, seeing Sansa caused the least amount of trouble. She lied (maybe, I'm inclined to think she really didn't remember) but Joffrey and Arya were physically violent to each, (and Joffrey to Mycah, and Arya to Sansa). But anyway, this scene shows that Sansa is clever in some respects, that sometimes you have to stay neutral, that you can't always tell the truth. But how do you know that she failed to tell the truth then because she calculated ahead of time that it would be best for everyone? It could be alternately read that she just didn't want to dish on her precious Joff Joff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 But how do you know that she failed to tell the truth then because she calculated ahead of time that it would be best for everyone? It could be alternately read that she just didn't want to dish on her precious Joff Joff. Considering how much of pleaser Sansa is in AGOT it wouldn't surprise me that she both wanted to please her current family and her future family so she decided to be neutral to please them both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpringKing Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Because striking a prince of the blood is a crime punishable by death, had she "told the truth" there is every likelihood that she thought she'd be condemning her own sister as guilty of that crime. And don't you think Joffrey being dead now is a pretty severe outcome? Joff's death was unrelated to the incident at the Ruby Ford and not even an indirect outcome. Arya didnt dispute Cersei's accusation she'd struck Joff. Had Sansa told the truth it wouldnt have implicated Arya any further than Arya had already acceded to. So you're saying she lied selfishly instead of selflessly. I thought the poster I quoted was saying the opposite. I cant speak for Lady Howell, but I believe Sansa's motive was primarily selfish - not to openly dispute Joff, or risk their relationship. Any selflessness on her part toward Arya was purely backhanded. True selflessness required the truth in that situation. Well that doesn't make any sense, seeing Sansa caused the least amount of trouble. She lied (maybe, I'm inclined to think she really didn't remember) but Joffrey and Arya were physically violent to each, (and Joffrey to Mycah, and Arya to Sansa). But anyway, this scene shows that Sansa is clever in some respects, that sometimes you have to stay neutral, that you can't always tell the truth. Sansa caused much trouble, after the fact, by not being truthful and breaking the 'he said/she said' tie so the dispute could be settled justly. She did really remember - from Sansa 1 AGOT: "Ned had heard her version of the story the night Arya had vanished. He knew the truth." Significant that Sansa's cleverness, in the end, wasnt. That's the motif driven home with pointed irony, twice no less, in Sansa 1 AFFC - "If a lie was kindly meant, there was no harm in it." While Sansa may be somewhat innocent in that she didnt anticipate the drastic consequences of her lie about Joff, she is positively evil in falsely convincing herself "It was all Arya's fault" after those consequences (Lady & Mycah's deaths) transpire. Sansa's lies on the Trident in AGOT serve the same narrative purpose that Arya's tomboy antics with Needle and 'dancing lessons' do. In Arya's case it creates a semi-plausible backstory for her transition to killer. In Sansa's case, the life and death nature of her lie smooths her transition to LF's lying protege. The courteous little lies she tells her antagonists in KL alone arent sufficiently evil enough to easily translate her arc from wannabe princess to LF's accomplice in Lysa's murder and Marillion's suicide. Had Sansa exhibited any greater capacity for egregious lying than l'affaire Lion's Tooth, she wouldnt retain enough likeability as a character. As is, Sansa is the flawed and compromised beauty to Sandor's bad but recently redeemed beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Voldemort's Toes Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Considering how much of pleaser Sansa is in AGOT it wouldn't surprise me that she both wanted to please her current family and her future family so she decided to be neutral to please them both. But why would she think that playing dumb would please her family, especially given that she already told Ned what happened, Ned called her in specially to tell it again, and she was in no way helping Arya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grail King Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 But why would she think that playing dumb would please her family, especially given that she already told Ned what happened, Ned called her in specially to tell it again, and she was in no way helping Arya? My question is; why didn't Ned call her on it? I totally understand why she did it she had no way of knowing her sister would get off lightly,if she did tell the truth Arya could have lost a hand or a whipping at minimum and a wolf still would die . Ned should have forced her to tell the truth, yet he didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Before Sansa's testimony they already have two different accounts that Arya hit him. It's also obvious to anyone who can see Joffrey. Cersei also already tried to have Arya killed before the testimonies were given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Monkey Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 When exactly did LF tutor or mentor Sansa? Was there anything else besides his villainous drunken reveals? There are a couple of scenes where LF is explicitly trying to get Sansa to understand some plan or machination that he is working on (such as the way he cozened Nestor Royce, or the sleight-of-hand he describes with Lyn Corbray, or the part about Harry the Heir). While some of this is debated in the forums, it seems clear to me that LF is trying to get Sansa to think like a politician. (If he wasn't, he wouldn't tell her any of this stuff since she doesn't need to know it and -- apart from Harry -- it doesn't even relate to her). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 While some of this is debated in the forums, it seems clear to me that LF is trying to get Sansa to think like a politician. (If he wasn't, he wouldn't tell her any of this stuff since she doesn't need to know it and -- apart from Harry -- it doesn't even relate to her). I agree. He's grooming her to become either a player, or a pawn who thinks she's a player but is actually controlled by him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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