Ingelheim Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 With time, Loras would be as good as two handed Jaime and Barry the Bold younger. I am not sure of that. Loras is already 18, nearly 19, but we know that Jaime was faster, stronger, and better than him when he was 17. I think Loras is really good, and he could get even better, but I don't think he'll match the legends both Jaime and Selmy are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Fair points, since it was a response to my response to the suggestion that Robb would beat Jaime in a battlefield combat scenario I thought you were backing that up. Though I suspect that they may have simply tried to kill him had he not lost his sword, considering the immediate threat he posed to Robb. EDIT: Also Kimim cleared that up so this is pretty irrelevant now anyway. lol glad that was cleared up. btw, single combat is (IMO) less important than being able to strategize, command an army, etc. Jaime is, I think, spared at Whispering Wood, as he's a valuable hostage. The men he led into the trap, however, are not spared. That he could beat Robb at that point in single combat would not bring his dead back to life. When I say that Jaime would beat Robb, and Loras would beat Jon in single combat, I'm not knocking Robb or Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 I am not sure of that. Loras is already 18, nearly 19, but we know that Jaime was faster, stronger, and better than him when he was 17. I think Loras is really good, and he could get even better, but I don't think he'll match the legends both Jaime and Selmy are. Jaime was never described as that strong, and Jaime already said he is as good as he was at his age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Jaime was never described as that strong, and Jaime already said he is as good as he was at his age. Jaime himself told that to Loras in ASOS. I don't have the exact quote, since I have the Spanish version, but he tells him that he was stronger, faster and better than him when he was 17. ETA: Actually it's Jaime VIII, ASOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Jaime was never described as that strong, and Jaime already said he is as good as he was at his age. Jaime is incredibly strong. As a matter of facts. he only acknowledges Bob, Dayne, the cleganes, the White Bull, the Umbers and perhaps Crackhal as stronger than him, in his own pov. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DamoDega Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_zFYnnn2Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon88 Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Obviously Loras is stronger then Jon in a sword fight. Jaime compared Loras to himself and said that he might be better then him. Jon Snow is a good fighter but not exceptional. He is great overall but fighting is not his main strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4_zFYnnn2Y I think we should put this in every thread bitching about Brienne vs the Hound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali Colak Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Or because Mance is a Night's Watch veteran that defeated prominent Wilding leaders in single combat. Since Jon didn't know it was Mance he was facing, Mance gets an edge there but I have no doubt that Mance would beat him anyway. I wasn’t talking about him not knowing who he was facing. If I remember correctly, one way in which Glammours work is by distorting the light reflected off a person, if what Jon is in fact seeing is a distorted image of Mance, than his ideas concerning mance's size, the position of his body his hands, are also distorted. Thus, as he wasn't able to see Mance clearly and plan his attacks properly, wouldn't that give Mance an unfair advantage? There is a more scientific example of this in AKOK, when Arya is trying to catch fish and she can't, because the light keeps playing tricks with her eyes. The modern scientific explanation would be that water reflects or bends light. You can't fight something or catch something if you can't see it properly. And I'm not denying Mances experience, just pointing out the fact that he had an unfair advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 And with time, Jon could be as good as his father, Rhaegar, who unseated a younger Barristan the Bold at the Harrenhal Tourney. Alternatively Rhaegar only ever won a single tourney. Barristan's description of him suggests he was excellent, but not outstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokymok Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Jaime himself told that to Loras in ASOS. I don't have the exact quote, since I have the Spanish version, but he tells him that he was stronger, faster and better than him when he was 17. ETA: Actually it's Jaime VIII, ASOS. Jaime hated that smile. "I was better than you, Ser Loras. I was bigger, I was stronger, and I was quicker. http://www.mobilenovel.net/mobile/novels/chapter-sixty-seven-jaime/page/0/7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drth Fel Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 It seems as if a lot of fans have a misconception about knights fighting one-on-one. Whether you call them knights, men-at-arms, or whatever, wrestling was always part of the training them did every day. When you think about it, most fights eventually will end up on the ground when both combatants are in armor. Same thing happens today when soldiers/Marines/etc. fight hand to hand in real warfare. So, Brienne's and Dunk's tactics aren't far off. Having experienced this type of fighting wearing full body armor firsthand, you want to be able to use the weight of your own armor as your opponents agains him. The combatants don't just wave swords at each other. They bull-rush, to get inside the optimal range of weapon or dart in and out. Swords aren't very good against armor anyways, duh. Steel on steel and all that. You have to look for gaps in the armor. That's why wrestling happens. Combatants are trying to stab with daggers, knives, dirks, etc.; or, they are trying to choke out or smash each other's head into the ground. Given all that, it still would be Loras winning, unless Jon knows Systema, Krav Maga, or a similar fighting technique. These martial arts focus on killing an opponent as fast as possible, by stabbing thru eys, throat, etc. Look how Jon's fight with Mance and Loras's fight with Brienne ended. Both ended on the ground with knives at throat or eyes. Whomever can excel at dirty fighting will win, regardless of how many battles each has won. Remember, "All's fair in love and war." There aren't any rules except wining. Loras and Brienne both "cheated" but they both won. GRRM says that Loras is in top 10 swordsman. That should settle it. If Jon fights dirtier and not by rules, then maybe he wins. Jack Sparrow said to Will Turner, "The only rules are what a man can do and what a man can't." Also, "you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'." Whether Jon's better than Mance, Iron Emmet, or Moonboy for all I know is irrelevant. Whoever is willing to fight dirtier is going to win. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordQorgyle Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Really????Loras would beat Jon with an hand behind is ass this is not even debatable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PirateVergo Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 didn't give Mance any sort of advantage, Yea right a spell that make you look smaller than you are isn't an advantage. Jon didn't know that he was fighting someone twice as big as Rattleshirt with a much longer range. Of course he couldn't win this fight that was unfair. And let's not forget that he said he could have won with Longclaw despite a such disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Alternatively Rhaegar only ever won a single tourney. Barristan's description of him suggests he was excellent, but not outstanding.That's probably due to the fact that Rhaegar rarely entered tourneys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Yea right a spell that make you look smaller than you are isn't an advantage.Jon didn't know that he was fighting someone twice as big as Rattleshirt with a much longer range.Of course he couldn't win this fight that was unfair. And let's not forget that he said he could have won with Longclaw despite a such disadvantage.You're missing the point. Jon underestimated his opponent. That was HIS own fault, and it's something that he realizes he shouldn't have done. That's something one should never do in a fight or it will bite them in the ass for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordQorgyle Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Jon didn't beat Mance simply because Mance is three times a better fighter than Jon..And Rhaegar was just a good swordsman miles away from Barry, Dayne or Jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Jon didn't beat Mance simply because Mance is three times a better fighter than Jon..And Rhaegar was just a good swordsman miles away from Barry, Dayne or JaimeAgreed. Mance is older, stronger, bigger and more experienced than Jon. However, Jon has the ability to become a better fighter than Mance with time and experience.I don't really think Jon would be on the level of Jaime or Dayne or Selmy, but that's not an insult. And anyone can be beaten, as we see in the Harrenhal Tourney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PirateVergo Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Jon didn't beat Mance simply because Mance is three times a better fighter than Jon.. That's why he implied he could have won with Longclaw? Mance was cheating that's the only reason why he was so dominant in this fight. And Jon didn't underestimate him, how could he have known that the guy he was fighting was twice stronger than what he looked like? You don't fight a small man the same way you fight someone as big as Mance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordQorgyle Posted August 23, 2014 Share Posted August 23, 2014 Mance had a bigger and heavier sword and still was faster than Jon, Jon is just an average swordsman while Mance is one of the best the NW has ever had Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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