Robb and Jon if they had been together?

[the conquoring bastard25]

Minsc are you a lawyer you like to split hairs like it's no one's business. I'm OCD and I don't split hairs like that.

When Ramasay was treating with the Karstarks he was still a bastard. He had not been legit but he was the one that the Karstarks had to deal with. There was no trueborn representive of house Bolton at the Dreadfort when they met and made their arrangements.

[Minsc]

Minsc are you a lawyer you like to split hairs like it's no one's business. I'm OCD and I don't split hairs like that.

How is it splitting hairs to mention that those in service of the false Baratheon bastard king (aka Roose's forces) probably accept his authority to legitimize Ramsay?

When Ramasay was treating with the Karstarks he was still a bastard. He had not been legit but he was the one that the Karstarks had to deal with. There was no trueborn representive of house Bolton at the Dreadfort when they met and made their arrangements.

When are you talking about?

[the conquoring bastard25]

Jon and the Bastard don't have anything else in common

Both men didn't know their mother's.

Both men came from very powerful ruling families

Both men are being raise up to kingship by a king that dies childless and there are rival claimant that might not like a bastard being king in the north. Rickon might not mind but some of those lord that don't want a bastard on the throne will back in all the same.

Both men are consider hard men, ruthless.

Both men are known for their skill at arms. (maybe not Jon at the start of the series but by book five Jon's rep is being talked bout as far as braavos giving him the moniker the black bastard of the wall.

[Boarsbane]

Jon and the Bastard don't have anything else in common

Both men didn't know their mother's.

Both men came from very powerful ruling families

Both men are being raise up to kingship by a king that dies childless and there are rival claimant that might not like a bastard being king in the north. Rickon might not mind but some of those lord that don't want a bastard on the throne will back in all the same.

Both men are consider hard men, ruthless.

Both men are known for their skill at arms. (maybe not Jon at the start of the series but by book five Jon's rep is being talked bout as far as braavos giving him the moniker the black bastard of the wall.

Jon isn't considered a "hard man" or ruthless, he isn't known for his skill at arms, Robb's kingdom died with him so he is king of nothing. Their is no parallel between the two.

[complexphoenix]

Robb is also their heir, while Jon is just a green bastard there is the difference.

Legitimization makes it so that he is Roose's heir.

What argument is there for Robb will stupidly appoint Jon ahead of Roose, Rickard, Greatjon, etc besides the fact that Robb likes him. Simply, Robb liked Theon (who received similar training as him) yet that didn't mean Theon became a leader of Robb's men.

1) Of course there's a difference... but is that difference enough to preclude Jon being given command of a part of Robb's army? I seriously doubt it, for the reasons I've cited - we know that neither greenness nor bastardy are necessarily disqualifying. Jon's face is as familiar as Robb's to his father's bannermen, they all know him as Ned's son, and if he sat with Robb at the feasts held in Winterfell when the banners were being gathered they would have had their chance to take his measure as they did with Robb.

2) It seems to me that legitimization is more likely to be a reward for success in battle, rather than a prerequisite for it. These things are often more chemical than legalistic - if someone doesn't like a bastard for whatever reason, they'll say they won't follow a bastard, and if they do like him or at least respect the guy giving him the command they'll act like his bastardy doesn't matter. Robb had already shown that he was tough enough to punish those who got too far out of line by setting Grey Wind on the Greatjon, so why wouldn't they respect his wishes?

3) Actually, the fact that Robb likes Jon and trusts him does, in fact, make it highly likely that he will choose him, because such choices very often get made that way. And although it may be a risky choice since Jon is unproven, it's not necessarily a stupid one. Jon might have proved just as competent as Robb. He hasn't had a chance to be a battle commander in the books yet, but from what he have seen, there's no firm reason to believe that he'd be much different from Robb. You can all it stupid if you like, but it's no stupider than giving half his army to himself.

[the conquoring bastard25]

I was giving prime example of a bastard who by somes reasoning means that one can't raise high nor allow then to accomplish much. I was giving an example of a bastard that did just that don't like that one how bout

Queen Elizabeth I she was a bastard and her position is worse she started as the crowned princess only to be named bastard when her mother displeased the king and he wanted to marry someone else and he didn't want anything to jeopardize his claim. Then she get's the half status of lady not a princess but not a bastard. She is at the end of the line of succession but through all of this she get's the crown.

She was not raised as the heir nor the spare. Yet she still received a heavy course load. She was intelligent, capable and had men to follow her. Even after the church attaints her.

Don't like that one what about her older sister Mary the bloody queen? Because of a techinacallity in the bible in the old testament no less the kings conscience is troubled and he starts what becomes the kings great matter. IT drags on for 6 years. The end result Mary's a bastard, her mother is put aside and her father remarries. Two more children are born and she's given the spare role after Prince Edward Henry's only trueborn son. Yet at one point before the whole Anne Boyeln troubles Henry was thinking of making his bastard Henry Fitzroy his heir. He raised the boy to semi royal statue and a slew of titles to boot making him the third highest peer in the realm next to the king and henry's cousin something or another he was even higher in station that princess mary with all of the titles that Henry conveyed on his bastard.

Don't like that one what about Juan and Ceasera Borgia. They're bastard born(and no I didn't watch the show, I study them in school), the sons of the pope, which in a time where most popes would name their bastards as their nephews and nieces. He reconzied them. He had other bastards. He gave his oldest bastard the title of the papal armies. By all accounts Juan Borgia is an idiot and not capable of sweeping the floor let alone commanding the papal armies. The real prize of the Borgia family is the second son Ceasara. He's like Micheal Corleon in the godfather(Mario Puzo actually modeled the corleon family after the borgias)He's smart, intelligent, a skill warrior, master war craft and stateman ship, was the youngest cardinal of his time and the only cardinal to actively seek to leave the church. After the mysterious death of his brother he takes charge of the papal armies and forms an alliance between himself and France. Marries a princess of the royal French blood. A bastard mind you. Did I fail to mention that before he dies he leads the French armies and the papal armies to carve out a republic north of Rome in the Romanga. Then there is their little sister who was known as a poisoner and know adultress. She marries into not one, not two but three of the noblest Italian families in Italy. The last one she negotioated herself and this is a family that is a cache branch of the French Royal family. At certain times during her father's time as Pope she looked over the papal financial books, she actually held the college responsible for the funds that they were stealing from the church. Her last husband actually allowed her to rule after his father died. So what was that about men having problems following bastards?

[Minsc]

1) Of course there's a difference... but is that difference enough to preclude Jon being given command of a part of Robb's army? I seriously doubt it, for the reasons I've cited - we know that neither greenness nor bastardy are necessarily disqualifying. Jon's face is as familiar as Robb's to his father's bannermen, they all know him as Ned's son, and if he sat with Robb at the feasts held in Winterfell when the banners were being gathered they would have had their chance to take his measure as they did with Robb.

Yes, it is likely a big enough difference. For shit's sake, IIRC Greatjon protests when he is told he supposed to march behind another noble house how do you think he and other tested trueborn lords are going to react when Robb appoints his arrogant (which Jon was in AGOT) green bastard brother in charge of him.

Simply, Jon might get a command but it will be nothing where he is in charge of vast majority of Robb's army and his lords.

3) Actually, the fact that Robb likes Jon and trusts him does, in fact, make it highly likely that he will choose him, because such choices very often get made that way. And although it may be a risky choice since Jon is unproven, it's not necessarily a stupid one. Jon might have proved just as competent as Robb. He hasn't had a chance to be a battle commander in the books yet, but from what he have seen, there's no firm reason to believe that he'd be much different from Robb. You can all it stupid if you like, but it's no stupider than giving half his army to himself.

Yes, it would be utterly stupid to send your untested brother against one of the most feared men in the Seven Kingdoms based solely on that you trust him. Especially, when you have an assortment of tested and experienced commanders to chose from.

Robb had no choice to led his own forces, in how otherwise they would make him look weaker in front of his bannermen and he had Brynden Tully( a famous and experienced general/knight) right aside him the entire way.

[the conquoring bastard25]

You keep harpin on the fact that Jon was spoiled for in the first book he was but only for like 3 chapters. He changed. His time at the watch saw to that. He wouldn't be the same boy that went to the watch that comes home to fight besides his brother.

He would have matured at least some. I'm starting to get the feeling you don't like Jon

[Minsc]

You keep harpin on the fact that Jon was spoiled for in the first book he was but only for like 3 chapters. He changed. His time at the watch saw to that. He wouldn't be the same boy that went to the watch that comes home to fight besides his brother.

If Jon went to the watch and then came home to fight besides his brother, he wouldn't having an position as Robb would be forced to execute him for desertion.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Jon went to the wall of his own free will. If jon came back with out taking any vows why would he be executed again? He broke the law how I'm sorry I'm just a bastard and all the legalities escape me.

[Minsc]

Jon went to the wall of his own free will. If jon came back with out taking any vows why would he be executed again? He broke the law how I'm sorry I'm just a bastard and all the legalities escape me.

Jon had already taken his vows when Robb decided to march down South.

[complexphoenix]

Yes, it is likely a big enough difference. For shit's sake, IIRC Greatjon protests when he is told he supposed to march behind another noble house how do you think he and other tested trueborn lords are going to react when Robb appoints his arrogant (which Jon was in AGOT) green bastard brother in charge of him.

Simply, Jon might get a command but it will be nothing where he is in charge of vast majority of Robb's army and his lords.

Yes, it would be utterly stupid to send your untested brother against one of the most feared men in the Seven Kingdoms based solely on that you trust him. Especially, when you have an assortment of tested and experienced commanders to chose from.

Robb had no choice to led his own forces, in how otherwise they would make him look weaker in front of his bannermen and he had Brynden Tully( a famous and experienced general/knight) right aside him the entire way.

The Greatjon shut up about that after Grey Wind bit his fingers off. The bannermen were acting prickly to test Robb's mettle, not because they were serious about their alleged complaints. Once he showed that he was tough enough to lead, they got in line and stopped whining about stupid shit. They wouldn't have whined about Robb placing them under Jon, once they'd accepted Robb.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether it's stupid, because it's really more a matter of opinion than fact, but I remain of the view that it's about the same as taking the command himself.

Robb most definitely had a choice. Bran says so, Catelyn tells him so, he could have given the command to just about any one of his bannermen or one of the more distinguished household knights or even Theon. Catelyn couldn't send him back to Winterfell once he'd gone as far as Moat Cailin because being bossed around by your mother makes you look like a baby, but while still at Winterfell he could have made a different choice than the one he ended up making. He was in that gray area of youth, in which he was arguably a man but also arguably a boy, able to go to war but also able to beg out on account of his youth. He chose to go to war, but he definitely had a choice.

[the conquoring bastard25]

I would remind you that when he was named to be passed out of training and into the nights watch he had at least a day to change his mind. He was so upset about the fact that Sam wasn't going to be named to the watch that he gets on his horse just for a ride mind you but he gets to thinking about what lay down the kings road. That WF was down that road, that there was the Eeryie and Casterly Rock and KL, Braavos and lastly Dorne. He could be at WF within a fortnight he had come to the wall freely, ghost is by his side while he's riding. HE's thinking all of this then he turns and goes and talks to Aemon. After that talk he gets named to the stewards and Sam reminds him that the Old Bear was naming him heir and grooming him for command.Jon had the time to go. With out becoming an oath breaker.

IF he had left at that time, he could have reached WF by the time Robb had made the decision to call the banners. With Jon there he need not actually march. In truth he could have sent Jon in his place. Under a peace banner to talk terms. OR Robb could have called the banner march but instead marched out only his foot leaving his horse futher up north. Deal OR the reverse actually I like him taking the horse down and leaving his foot close to the fords. (not including his archers because I'm partial to their abilities.) Anyway Robb, Jon, and Theon deal with the Kingslayer at the Riverrun and then under a banner of peace go to KL to talk terms. Tyrion is there at the capital remember. Tywin is still in the field having to deal with Renly and Stannis. Now I'm not say that going to KL to talk term is anything other than a diversion. While Jon is in the capital, Robb could be dealing with the west. The Blackfish is left to hold Riverrun and Edmure is sent to deal with Balon about the ships. Cat is down in the South treating with Renly and Stannis.

After Teating with Tyrion Jon and Ghost head west. So as Theon is still with Robb, even if the North fell WF should be safe for a time as it's in the very heart of the North and far from the shore which is something the IB would like avoid doing. There then is no need for a Jeyne scenario and that way Robb stays true to his Vows.

With the Blackfish in Riverrun, it get's held as Robb intended and Tywin heads west thinking to catch the Young wolf off his game. With Grey wind and Ghost together in the west their scent coming from every direction would drive scouts and forging parties crazy. I doubt the Tywin would give rise to the bate to separate his army but Jon and Robb's armies along with the wolves scent to lead the scouts right to where they want them and choke his army at the Gold Tooth well... That was the original plan. The direwolf would have tied the Lion's tail in a knot in his own territory no less. IF Edmure is successful with his mission then he very well could have lead ships and an attack on the port of lannisport and the castle. If I was Edmure I would feign an attack at Lannisport when the Castle learns of the attack they would rush to defend the port, take the castle from the remaining garrison. The Rock is now theirs. After Robb and jon's army deals with Tywin at the Gold Tooth like he originally planned. The defenders of lannisport learn the castle has fallen. They go for a siege of the Rock. Jon and Robb's army catch them under the walls of the Rock, CheckMate the lion is down for the count and I don't think that they're going to make it. All this time Stannis has taken KL and the Rose has bent the Knee.

[Barty]

Where on earth are people getting the idea that a bastard being sent treat with Kings or Lords is disrespectful? What did the last King in the North do?? Torrhen Stark?? Who did he send to negotiate with the most powerful man in westeros? Brandon Snow - his bastard half brother. If it is such a slight then why on earth did Aegon(who had more men and dragons) not simply refuse Torrhen's deal and attack the Northern armies?

Even Aegon had his half brother leading armies - against the Storm King.

However that being said - I would still not send Jon to treat with the Tyrells simply because Cat is probably a better negotiator than Jon.

As for how things might have been different - Maybe Jon isnt given command of the troops against Tywin but he would surely argue against Bolton being placed in charge(In his POV he says that Ned never trusted Roose), and I am inclined to think Robb might listen to him especially considering Roose wasnt his first choice and he is still an uncertain boy at this point looking for advice from his men. Between Cat and Jon a capable man like Robett Glover or Hellman Tallhart might have been given command(I call him capable because of the battle of Duskendale - against who is considered the finest soldier in westeros and a superior army and being taken by surprise he still managed to inflict heavy casualties on the Lannisters).

Again Jon might have made Robb choose a different man to send to Balon(since Jon never liked Theon either) - between Cat and Jon Robb might change his mind(this is less certain though since Robb is now more confident in is decisions). And Jeyne Westerling would probably not have happened - If Theon is not sent to Balon then WF never falls and the IronBorn are expelled from the North within a year by Rodrik and there is no reason to grieve and if WF falls then Robb has someone to share his grief with - it is quite obvious he needed someone to confide in and support him(from his choice of men to replace Jon - Cat notices this in one of her chapters) and this is why he let Jeyne in.

I see major fiascoes being avoided - only as Robb's adviser and confidant, Jon can change the war and this is keeping in line with Jon's character and thoughts from his own POV.

[CrashBreaker501]

William the Conquer wasn't a 14 year old boy. Jon wasn't in command of the army, Robb was. They have nothing in common other than being bastards.

Let us also remember he was a terrifying fuck: defeating rebellions since he was left as Duke when his father went to the Holy Land and never came back and (according to a certain tale) humilliating Harold of Wessex and forcing him to help William to obtain the English' Throne's succession when he shipwrecked near France, all the while smiling coldly.

[the conquoring bastard25]

So the fact that as far as Braavos he's known as the black bastard of the wall. Do you think men are saying that out of affection? Because if I heard talk about a black bastard the first image that runs through my mind wouldn't be warm and cuddly.

[Boarsbane]

So the fact that as far as Braavos he's known as the black bastard of the wall. Do you think men are saying that out of affection? Because if I heard talk about a black bastard the first image that runs through my mind wouldn't be warm and cuddly.

The Night's Watch colors are black and he is a bastard, I don't know what he could of done to gain a ruthless reputation in Braavos. It certainly doesn't imply that he is a great fighter.

[the conquoring bastard25]

So he's being talked about all the way in Braavos for right now. We only have what Ayra's heard so for all his reputation has spread. But with out that being said. Why would men being talking about a regular common run of the mill boring guy? After leaving the wall why think about him again there's nothing special about him right he's just a bastard. Yet can you get an image in your head about what it must be to just see him from afar he's on horse back all in black, longclaw slung across his back, his raven circling his head with a white direwolf stalking besides his horse that's half the fucking size of the damn horse. Silence on four legs. Then you hear what the men of the night's watch are saying about him. That he's a turn cloak, a bastard, cut off one brother's head because he didn't like his orders or how ever they want to spin that little piece of information. He' killed a dead man and survived beyond the Wall. He's the bastard of WF and they say that he stalks the wall at night in the form of his wolf and the mark of the beast is on him. Savory reputation to have right. Sounds like a jolly good guy someone I want to be my friend and if we can't be friend I would love to have them as my enemy

[Boarsbane]

So he's being talked about all the way in Braavos for right now. We only have what Ayra's heard so for all his reputation has spread. But with out that being said. Why would men being talking about a regular common run of the mill boring guy? After leaving the wall why think about him again there's nothing special about him right he's just a bastard. Yet can you get an image in your head about what it must be to just see him from afar he's on horse back all in black, longclaw slung across his back, his raven circling his head with a white direwolf stalking besides his horse that's half the fucking size of the damn horse. Silence on four legs. Then you hear what the men of the night's watch are saying about him. That he's a turn cloak, a bastard, cut off one brother's head because he didn't like his orders or how ever they want to spin that little piece of information. He' killed a dead man and survived beyond the Wall. He's the bastard of WF and they say that he stalks the wall at night in the form of his wolf and the mark of the beast is on him. Savory reputation to have right. Sounds like a jolly good guy someone I want to be my friend and if we can't be friend I would love to have them as my enemy

Only in your scenario he wouldn't have any reputation from the Wall because he either never went or left to join Robb before he could swear his vows.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Is part of the reason that Jon get's this rep as a wimp because Kit Harrington is so fucking pretty? Is that was this is about because i'm not having his argument about him and his skills as a fighter. IF you want that VP look at Loras Vs Jon or better yet the thread bout whose the best fighter and where would you rank them. I fought hard for Jon and he was moved. So I'm not getting to that one.

Your right in this scenario. But the reason that I brought the whole name thing was to give more credience about Willam and Jon.

That Jon doesn't have the greatest reputation and some of his actions aren't the greatest if seen from an outsiders point of view

Like for example he's an oathbreaker he let Val out and some said that he had her tucked away for his own pleasure. The watch takes a vow of celibacy. Yet castle has no secrets and what was going on or what men thing was going on is being spread all through out the castle. So it's reasonable that little bit got out also. The fact he married a wildling during his time beyond the wall and that he rode with the wildling and climbed the wall. All of this is common knowledge in the watch. So yeah Jon's getting the Monkier just because he's a bastard and the watch dresses in black.