Robb and Jon if they had been together?

[PrinceHenryris]

As much as I'd would love seeing them together, Jon wouldn't be half the man he became if he wasn't sent to the Wall. Sure, he would have matured anyway, but it wouldn't be the same.

No way Jon gets to command anything. He would help at the councils, fight beside Robb, but he would have to prove himself before being able to lead.

If Jon came to terms with being a bastard, the way he does in the canon, he might have been able to use his own life experience to convince Robb not to marry Jeyne, since things worked better for everyone with Ned leaving his mother to stay with Catelyn and Jon turned out ok.

Why wouldn't Jon have been put in a position of power?

Historically, there was that Orys Baratheon guy.

[Minsc]

Looking like a mute silent Ned come back from the grave to haunt Balon all the more. An ever reminder of his failure and the deaths of his sons and how he had to give his son as hostage to the Starks. I think that might be more effective if not a little dramatic picture to be sure but no the less effective.

Thus Balon in his has Jon thrown into chains and has Ghost slaughtered visibly in front of Jon, all of this being before he orders his fleets to attack the North by taking the Moat and Motte.

Even when Robb makes the suggestion that he send Theon to the IB I think that he would have sided with Cat and named himself along with lord or heir of their cause to be his mouth piece. It could be just a mission where he sent to learn how to teat with other lords of the lands a bit of seasoning. But with Jon and Ghost on this mission with a Glover, maybe an Umber or Manderly in tow when they step off their ship and Jon has Ghost at his heel no man in that greeting party is who has come to teat with their lord.

Jon isn't a Lord or heir of their cause, nor is Robb going to waste his High Command by sending a Glover, Umber, or Manderly with Jon. Therefore, it will be Jon alone which will cause Balon to take offense thus he even quicker refuses Robb's offer and either imprisons or executes Jon to spite Ned/Robb.

In my mind Jon doesn't leave he wall until after he's been passed out of training and about to take his vows.

Ned is only arrested/attacked after Jon has taken the vows, thus it would make no sense for Jon to go up and train with NW then leave it before he has cause.

Why wouldn't Jon have been put in a position of power?

Because the Northern Lords and Riverlords will not agree to march under a green bastard.

Agreed. Imagine if Jon had been at the Green Fork. When the Northmen stole a night's march. If instead of pulling up and waiting for Tywin to get ready, Ghost had run along the horse lines much like Oxcross and then the Northerners descended in the middle of the night/early morning.

I doubt that Jon will be able to outwit Tywin, in how I doubt Tywin is as lax as Steffard with his army.

[MyLittleFinger]

To further illustrate my point about the meeting with Balon. Let say that Ghost is chained in the Kennel. We know what the dogs in the Kennel were like in Winterfell the screamed and howled for months after those wolfs got to the castle. SO the dogs are screaming bloody murder in the kennel and it's echoing off the walls of the castle the water making the sound queer inside, making it sound like the screams of the dogs and the horses are going mad all the while Ghost hasn't made a sound. Inside Jon is just sitting and listening all the while the animals of the castle are going mad at the scent of Ghost. Just another strong reminder of who Jon is and who's son he is. Looking like a mute silent Ned come back from the grave to haunt Balon all the more. An ever reminder of his failure and the deaths of his sons and how he had to give his son as hostage to the Starks. I think that might be more effective if not a little dramatic picture to be sure but no the less effective.

I would think Balon would be more haunted by Jason Mallister (killing his eldest at Seagard), Stannis Baratheon (smashing the finest of his fleet off Fair Isle as well as wanting Balon executed) and Thoros (first through the breach of Pyke with his flaming sword, Maron died at that point)

[the conquoring bastard25]

Jon is this scenero didn't go to the isle alone he's with other and under a banner of peace. He's just listening to the talk he's just there as a reminder of who's cause.

Killing an envoy would be madness expecial they more than likely as they are envoy would have been guest rights. So again Jon's only crime is sitting and listening to the talk and Ghost's scent is driving the animals alittle and he get's chains and then death

[the conquoring bastard25]

I said that he would be in the company of other lord or heirs of the northen kingdom he was just there to add a reminder of who's cause was being championed and to get some seasoning in the game of thrones. That this would be an opputnity to see who other lords and heir have been trained to teat with foreign nations. As Jon nor Robb were ever fostered out this would be a chance to see a different style of leadership. Which is never a bad thing to have is perspective. Learning how other would deal with a situation allows men and such to learn from others.

Kill Jon Snow on the Iron Isles and Robb would act in kind and kill Theon friend or no friend and The North Remembers He would have tried to get Balon back for killing Jon.

[the conquoring bastard25]

I would think Balon would be more haunted by Jason Mallister (killing his eldest at Seagard), Stannis Baratheon (smashing the finest of his fleet off Fair Isle as well as wanting Balon executed) and Thoros (first through the breach of Pyke with his flaming sword, Maron died at that point)

I do admit that but it was Ned that took his son. IT was Ned that has held his son for the past ten years. It's Ned that turned his heir from being IB to being soft like those born on the greenlands. That was Balon's biggest fear that Ned Stark had made Theon one of them. THat's why he told not to call Robb his brother, as his brothers were killed in a cause that was lead in part by the man that he spent the last 10 years as hostage to. It's Ned and Robert that he wanted to see into their graves not Mallister, Stannis or Thoros. It was Ned and Bob.

That's why I thought that Jon just sitting and looking would be an interesting bit of theater while the dogs and horses are going mad with the scent and Ghost never making a sound. What it more chilling knowing that a great beast is out there somewhere not making a sound and could be on you at any minute silent death. While Balon who knows what wargs are theirs a family of nobles on the isles that claim to skinchange into seals and wet life. So he would suspect at least what Jon is. Even if he doesn't have proof.

[Lee-Sensei]

^I have to say... if Robb killed Theon in the scenario you're presenting Robb's going to come off looking like a total dick. I don't think that's something Robb would do... and I'm not sure that it would stop Balon. If anything it might make him hate the Starks more for "killing all of his sons".

[Minsc]

Jon is this scenero didn't go to the isle alone he's with other and under a banner of peace. He's just listening to the talk he's just there as a reminder of who's cause.

Robb isn't going to send a whole mess of lords and heirs to the Iron Islands as envoys, similar to how he didn't send a whole mess of lords and heirs with either Theon or his mother.

edit: Also I doubt that Balon would allow Jon to bring Ghost into his castle.

Kill Jon Snow on the Iron Isles and Robb would act in kind and kill Theon friend or no friend and The North Remembers He would have tried to get Balon back for killing Jon.

I don't think Balon would care, nor do I think Robb would kill Theon instead he would use Theon to comfort himself for his loss.

Edit: Simply, while I admire your enthusiasm I think you have an inflated idea about the influence that Jon would have on Robb's campaign. At most, Jon's greatest benefit would have been a shoulder to cry on after Bran and Rickon's "deaths" thus maybe ensuring Jeynegate didn't occur.

[the conquoring bastard25]

^I have to say... if Robb killed Theon in the scenario you're presenting Robb's going to come off looking like a total dick. I don't think that's something Robb would do... and I'm not sure that it would stop Balon. If anything it might make him hate the Starks more for "killing all of his sons".

How is killing Theon making Robb a dick. Jon was under an envoy banner and Minsc is saying kill Jon because is direwolf is making the animals alittle antsy. He's just sitting and listening to the talk to the table. That's his only job and if Balon does as Minsc suggests it's balon that's he dick he just killed envoys under a peace banner.

The only thing that Robb can do after that is kill Theon. Balon just killed his envoy for no reason, not committing treason, not being rude or commiting some grievice slight to or planning murder on Pyke but sitting and listening and I'm the crazy one for suggesting that with Jon being dead at Balons hands it's a dick move for Robb to execute Theon?

[Lee-Sensei]

How is killing Theon making Robb a dick. Jon was under an envoy banner and Minsc is saying kill Jon because is direwolf is making the animals alittle antsy. He's just sitting and listening to the talk to the table. That's his only job and if Balon does as Minsc suggests it's balon that's he dick he just killed envoys under a peace banner.

The only thing that Robb can do after that is kill Theon. Balon just killed his envoy for no reason, not committing treason, not being rude or commiting some grievice slight to or planning murder on Pyke but sitting and listening and I'm the crazy one for suggesting that with Jon being dead at Balons hands it's a dick move for Robb to execute Theon?

1) Because Theon is Robb's best friend, who saved Robb and his brothers life and has been nothing, but loyal up to that point.

2) Balon is a dick. We already know that. Robb on the other hand, is a nice guy for the most part.

3) Yeah. It really would be the actions of a jerk.

@Minsc He might also be able to convince Robb to keep Theon nearby.

[the conquoring bastard25]

how is one or two lords a whole mess of lords. He could also send knights or sworn swords as the north doesn't really keep knights.

Why send Cat when her family can actual call banners to defend her and avenge her if something were to happen to her? I don't see Robb sending someone like Cat or the Blackfish because he needs them with him. Cat for council and the Blackfish because most of the older lords of the trident, bracken, blackwood, mallister know and probably grew up with the blackfish. The see him as a more seasoned commander than Edmure.

Send Jon with a glover and a bracken with a couple of knights for each region. That means the party maybe has 10 people in it total. As none of these men besides Jon are of his blood they make poor hostages. He's a bastard so he's not in the line to inherit. Kill him and he's under a peace banner that's poor PR for the IB and they will just have made powerful enemies in those lords he killed and that of the North.

Those ships would have made the world of difference, get the ships and they could have attack Lannisport and Casterly Rock from the sea and land. Force Tywin to abandon the Trident and come home west. While those armies that he's left unopposed to take in from the rear. Leading the charge those lords from the trident. At the very least if he gets those ships and Tywin has to come west that leaves KL naked. He wont be meeting up with Tyrell, giving Stannis a better chance at the Iron Throne.

[Lee-Sensei]

^The Iron Born are raping, murdering, thieving, slavers. I don't think they care about bad PR.

[Minsc]

Jon isn't going to convince Balon to side with Robb! Simply, where do you get this idea that Jon is this super diplomat that he will able to convince these Lord Paramounts to do whatever he wants?

[the conquoring bastard25]

first I'm going to say this The ends justify the means and some times it is better to be feared rather than loved.

Jon is Robb's brother. Not his best friend not some stranger of the street his brother. They have been each other's constant company since they could crawl and talk. Each other's competition, confidant.

Robb learns that Balon is so treacherous to kill men under an envoy banner and one of those men is his brother. Jon who isn't in the position to do anything to the Lannisters but given the chance he would rain down death and destruction upon house Lannister. What do you really think impulsive head strong stubborn Robb Stark would do for his brother and he has the son of his brother's killer in his grasp.

What is the point of having hostages if you wont take their heads? Are they just for looks and not to be touch or are they there to insure such treachery doesn't happen?

[the conquoring bastard25]

I keep saying over and over he's there not to talk he's there as another set of ears for his brother. I make the comment that if might even be slightly unnerving his all Jon does is sit and listen to the talk around the table. I never said that Jon would be some super talker and get greyjoy to agree. I said that the other lords would be there to do the talking. Jon's presence is more of a reminder of who has his son and what they can do to his son if they choose to.

Like Cat said send someone who isn't Theon and he would be more than likely to get those ships all the more quickly,

[Minsc]

I keep saying over and over he's there not to talk he's there as another set of ears for his brother. I make the comment that if might even be slightly unnerving his all Jon does is sit and listen to the talk around the table. I never said that Jon would be some super talker and get greyjoy to agree. I said that the other lords would be there to do the talking. Jon's presence is more of a reminder of who has his son and what they can do to his son if they choose to.

Like Cat said send someone who isn't Theon and he would be more than likely to get those ships all the more quickly,

What the hell is the point of sending Jon if he isn't going to talk?

[Lee-Sensei]

Jon isn't going to convince Balon to side with Robb! Simply, where do you get this idea that Jon is this super diplomat that he will able to convince these Lord Paramounts to do whatever he wants?

Well, the story does have a habit of bending to serve Jon's needs.

first I'm going to say this The ends justify the means and some times it is better to be feared rather than loved.

Jon is Robb's brother. Not his best friend not some stranger of the street his brother. They have been each other's constant company since they could crawl and talk. Each other's competition, confidant.

Robb learns that Balon is so treacherous to kill men under an envoy banner and one of those men is his brother. Jon who isn't in the position to do anything to the Lannisters but given the chance he would rain down death and destruction upon house Lannister. What do you really think impulsive head strong stubborn Robb Stark would do for his brother and he has the son of his brother's killer in his grasp.

What is the point of having hostages if you wont take their heads? Are they just for looks and not to be touch or are they there to insure such treachery doesn't happen?

1. Robb would cry about it. He's not so much of a jerk that he'd kill Theon for what Balon does.

2. That is the point of having a hostage, and if it was Ned Theon may just lose his head, but Robb wouldn't kill him.

[the conquoring bastard25]

I'm going to say this part one last time. Since you didn't like the idea of Jon just being handed command. I gave a scenario where he's being seasoned. That he's in the company of other lords and heirs maybe one or two from both regions because Jon and Robb were never fostered and sending Jon with them on this envoy mission is just for him to be an extra set of ears and eyes. He's there to learn different styles of ruling and leadership beyond Ned and what he taught his sons.

This way if things go well his name is at least attached to the mission and it's outcome. He's getting to know the different lords and their heirs on this mission. Giving him a little more support at the council meeting maybe if he gets along with those in the party.

This is giving the green bastard boy some lessons in war and statecraft outside of realms of how Ned would handle the situation. Also as Jon looks like a younger version of Ned and he's on the men that Balon holds responsible for his down fall and his current situation. It's Ned and Robert in their graves. Him being there is just a reminder of who's mission this is and who's words those lords and heirs that are with him.

He's there symbolically to unnerve Balon Greyjoy a little. He's got a direwolf so no man is likely to forget that he is related to the King of the North. He's there to sit and learn and make Balon uncomfortable by just looking so much like Ned. While the animals of the castle are going mad at the scent of Ghost. Jon is sitting no fazed by the commotion the animals are making in the yard. He's just listening but the threat his all in what he doesn't say.

What is it that Jon isn't saying but his presence at this meeting is saying? What is the underlining threat that Balon should get by having Jon show up at his home ?

My family holds your last living son. We are at war if we don't get the ships, not only will you never see your heir again but he will spend the rest of his life a hostage to Winterfell and the Iron Throne.

Sometimes the most effective threat is the one that is never spoken aloud. It's the implications that are meant that can be even worse that what actually would happen.

That was my point of making Jon go to the Iron Isles. To just be a presence there and add weight to the meeting so not one would forget that the Starks hold the last living son of Balon Greyjoy. He's not there to speak but more to be an unspoken threat.

[Lee-Sensei]

I'm going to say this part one last time. Since you didn't like the idea of Jon just being handed command. I gave a scenario where he's being seasoned. That he's in the company of other lords and heirs maybe one or two from both regions because Jon and Robb were never fostered and sending Jon with them on this envoy mission is just for him to be an extra set of ears and eyes. He's there to learn different styles of ruling and leadership beyond Ned and what he taught his sons.

This way if things go well his name is at least attached to the mission and it's outcome. He's getting to know the different lords and their heirs on this mission. Giving him a little more support at the council meeting maybe if he gets along with those in the party.

This is giving the green bastard boy some lessons in war and statecraft outside of realms of how Ned would handle the situation. Also as Jon looks like a younger version of Ned and he's on the men that Balon holds responsible for his down fall and his current situation. It's Ned and Robert in their graves. Him being there is just a reminder of who's mission this is and who's words those lords and heirs that are with him.

He's there symbolically to unnerve Balon Greyjoy a little. He's got a direwolf so no man is likely to forget that he is related to the King of the North. He's there to sit and learn and make Balon uncomfortable by just looking so much like Ned. While the animals of the castle are going mad at the scent of Ghost. Jon is sitting no fazed by the commotion the animals are making in the yard. He's just listening but the threat his all in what he doesn't say.

What is it that Jon isn't saying but his presence at this meeting is saying? What is the underlining threat that Balon should get by having Jon show up at his home ?

My family holds your last living son. We are at war if we don't get the ships, not only will you never see your heir again but he will spend the rest of his life a hostage to Winterfell and the Iron Throne.

Sometimes the most effective threat is the one that is never spoken aloud. It's the implications that are meant that can be even worse that what actually would happen.

That was my point of making Jon go to the Iron Isles. To just be a presence there and add weight to the meeting so not one would forget that the Starks hold the last living son of Balon Greyjoy. He's not there to speak but more to be an unspoken threat.

What makes you think he cares.

[the conquoring bastard25]

your crazy if you think that Robb wouldn't kill Theon to pay for Jon's life.

Look at what he did to Karstark and he killed some squires who were no kin to him. Yet at one point house Karstark and Stark were one house. He even points that out before Robb takes his head.

Robb didn't want to make common cause with Renly because he didn't have the right claim the throne because Stannis was his older brother.

The boy is his father's son. He's more impulsive and head strong. But morally and ethically for the most part he's his father's son.

He would have taken Theon's head and keep it moving

So say that he would have cried and then went to Theon for comfort his crazy

Yeah I can see that now I'm going to go to my brother's killers son and ask him to make me feel better. Expecially given that these two men can't stand each other and Jon was all ways telling Robb what an ass Theon was.