Robb and Jon if they had been together?

[Boarsbane]

Is part of the reason that Jon get's this rep as a wimp because Kit Harrington is so fucking pretty? Is that was this is about because i'm not having his argument about him and his skills as a fighter. IF you want that VP look at Loras Vs Jon or better yet the thread bout whose the best fighter and where would you rank them. I fought hard for Jon and he was moved. So I'm not getting to that one.

Your right in this scenario. But the reason that I brought the whole name thing was to give more credience about Willam and Jon.

That Jon doesn't have the greatest reputation and some of his actions aren't the greatest if seen from an outsiders point of view

Like for example he's an oathbreaker he let Val out and some said that he had her tucked away for his own pleasure. The watch takes a vow of celibacy. Yet castle has no secrets and what was going on or what men thing was going on is being spread all through out the castle. So it's reasonable that little bit got out also. The fact he married a wildling during his time beyond the wall and that he rode with the wildling and climbed the wall. All of this is common knowledge in the watch. So yeah Jon's getting the Monkier just because he's a bastard and the watch dresses in black.

How do any of those actions imply he is ruthless or a great fighter? If anything he should be seen as soft for letting the wildlings through the Wall. I have looked at the Jon vs Loras thread and the consensus was that Loras would beat Jon handily. I imagine he is called the Black Bastard because he is disliked or distrusted not because he is considered ruthless, what has he done to earn a ruthless reputation?

[the conquoring bastard25]

Fine, Fine agree to disagree.

There is a reason that GRRM is giving Jon a rep abroad that is just as nasty(not fighting wise or what have you) that is going to match Dany's. She's got this rep of feeding her dragons babies, fucking everything that walks and such. IT's not because she's some great fighter but she getting a nasty rep. Burning envoys and such that's not following envoy rights and not honoring safe travel for an envoy....

The people about the whole Loras vs Jon well... skill alone isn't the only think that matters or decides a fight. If that were the case the underdog would never win.

[of man and wolf]

How do any of those actions imply he is ruthless or a great fighter? If anything he should be seen as soft for letting the wildlings through the Wall. I have looked at the Jon vs Loras thread and the consensus was that Loras would beat Jon handily. I imagine he is called the Black Bastard because he is disliked or distrusted not because he is considered ruthless, what has he done to earn a ruthless reputation?

Killed wildings and took out the more experienced and "better" fighter in the Halfhand.

[Victor227]

Killed wildings and took out the more experienced and "better" fighter in the Halfhand.

Jon does acknowledge himself that the Halfhand let him kill him.

To me, it's not that Jon is a bastard, it's that he's never fought a battle before, and the attitude the Night's Watch helped deal with in him is still more than a little strong.

Robb was obliged to take positions of power and authority, because he was left in a position of power and authority. While he holds up amazingly well thanks to good counsel, he does make his own mistakes that a more experienced and older version of himself may not have.

I'd say that using Jon as an emissary or commander would be doing him a disservice. In Robb's personal guard he could build up the reputation and experience necessary to earn the respect of others beyond his birth. It's one thing to be a bastard, and it's another to be a bastard with a good reputation as a soldier, that difference being the capacity to earn respect.

[Boarsbane]

Killed wildings and took out the more experienced and "better" fighter in the Halfhand.

I'm pretty sure when you decide to let the Wildlings through the Wall that pretty much assures no one is going to think you are a badass for killing them. And as for killing Halfhand, his wolf helped him and Qhorin had no intentions of killing Jon.

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

it would have been sweet to see jon and ghost fighting side by side with robb and grey wind. that would be legendary.

[belladeuil]

Do you think that the events of the WOTFK would have had a different outcome if Jon Snow had been by Robbs side for the war?

Meaning if he had been with Robb while he was in the west do you think that Jon might have talked his brother out of marrying the Westerling girl?

If he had been the one that had been charged with holding Riverrun while Robb was in the west do you think that maybe he had he been in charge instead of Edmure Tully things might have gone differently? How do you think Edmure Tully would react to having be to second in command to a bastard? What about if he had been the one to hold the garrison at the Twins. Would Walder Frey maybe married one of his daughters to a bastard. Assuming that Walder is a pragmatic man and would have to know that the bonds between the brothers runs deep and that as king Robb very well could legitimize Jon. What if Jon had been the one to Teat with Greyjoy? As a bastard he is one of the kings blood but as a bastard he would make a poor hostage as he can't inherit anything and other than wounding Robb and pissing him off he holds no real value.

What about their different battle commanding skills.

Robb in my mind favors using surprise and ambush tactics and taking advantage of the situation. While Jon to me seem more of a guerilla warfare type commander. Appear in a blaze of smoke and disappear just a quickly. They both like to use elements of surprise and will use the terrain to their advantages. While Jon and Robb both seem to like to use little know treks or tracks. Do you think their styles compliment each other or are they too similar meaning that with out contrast they would be leaving themselves vulnerable and open with out looking at all of the possiblities.

If Jon Snow had gone with Robb Stark to the West, it may be that Robb Stark would not have turned to Jeyne Westerling for comfort. Even if Robb Stark still slept with Jeyne Westerling, it would make more sense for Jon Snow to urge him to marry Jeyne Westerling than not to. Jon Snow, for all intents and purposes, is a bastard son of Ned Stark. He resents his illegitimate status, to the point that he swears he will father no bastard. I doubt he will want and/or approve of his half brother fathering bastards of his own. True, Jeyne Westerling may not be pregnant but by sleeping with Robb Stark she would have lost her honour. Jon Snow, who was raised by the same honourable man as Robb Stark, would likely agree with Robb Stark's decision to put the girl's honour above his own in that situation.

There is no way Robb Stark could put Jon Snow in charge of Riverrun. Edmure Tully is firstly, Robb Stark's uncle, and secondly, acting Lord of Riverrun. Edmure Tully would not be pleased to have a bastard placed above him and by putting Jon Snow in charge of Riverrun, Robb Stark would be alienating the Tullys, his own family, and the Riverlords, who consist of half his Kingdom. Furthermore, it is highly doubtful that Jon Snow would be able to command the Riverlords, that is, the Riverlords may not obey him, even if Robb Stark manages to force Jon Snow upon them.

As for Lord Walder wanting to marry an illegitimate (or even legitimate) daughter to Jon Snow, that is a possibility. Lord Walder has many daughters and granddaughters who need husbands. Ned Stark's illegitimate son and Robb Stark's right hand man is a good match for Lord Walder's illegitimate daughter and/or granddaughter. Whether Jon Snow will agree to it is another matter. He will if Robb Stark orders and/or needs him too but willingly of his own accord, probably not.

Robb Stark sent Theon Greyjoy to deal with Lord Balon because Theon Greyjoy is Lord Balon's son, not because Robb Stark lacked for envoys. Robb Stark felt that he could trust Theon Greyjoy and that Lord Balon would be more receptive to his son and heir rather than a stranger, or someone who had a hand in the death of his sons in the first Greyjoy rebellion. Nonetheless, if Robb Stark sent Jon Snow to the Iron Islands to deal with Lord Balon, Jon Snow would never have been allowed to leave the Iron Islands alive since Lord Balon did not want word of him mustering his forces to get out. Lord Balon could capture Jon Snow and demand a trade in exchange for his son Theon to be returned to him but I doubt that since it would then allow word of him mustering his forces to leave the Iron Islands. Lord Balon had long given up on his sole surviving son, choosing to place all his hopes on his daughter, whom he regards as a son. It is likely Lord Balon would have attacked the North whether or not Theon Greyjoy was returned to him or remained with the Starks. Clearly he was planning to do so even before Theon Greyjoy returned to Iron Islands; perhaps he was already planning his attack before he knew his son would be returned to him. If Robb Stark chose to execute Theon Greyjoy in retaliation, so be it. Lord Balon had already lost two sons and perhaps he felt he lost the third son also when Lord Eddard took him as his ward. Lord Balon however could use the threat of executing Jon Snow to stay Robb Stark's hand. Jon Snow would likely remain in a dungeon in Pyke, if Lord Balon decided not to kill him, yet, and it is quite possible that his direwolf Ghost, if Jon Snow took Ghost with him to the Iron Islands, would be killed.

All in all, I doubt Robb Stark would leave Jon Snow behind in Riverrun or at the Twins. I think Robb Stark would have taken Jon Snow with him. Robb Stark and Jon Snow are like brothers and Robb Stark would likely want his companion since infancy to be beside him during the trials and tribulations and their father's death.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

jon would have been just anothery casualty at the RW

[Hypnomagica]

If Jon Snow had gone with Robb Stark to the West, it may be that Robb Stark would not have turned to Jeyne Westerling for comfort. Even if Robb Stark still slept with Jeyne Westerling, it would make more sense for Jon Snow to urge him to marry Jeyne Westerling than not to. Jon Snow, for all intents and purposes, is a bastard son of Ned Stark. He resents his illegitimate status, to the point that he swears he will father no bastard. I doubt he will want and/or approve of his half brother fathering bastards of his own. True, Jeyne Westerling may not be pregnant but by sleeping with Robb Stark she would have lost her honour. Jon Snow, who was raised by the same honourable man as Robb Stark, would likely agree with Robb Stark's decision to put the girl's honour above his own in that situation.

There is no way Robb Stark could put Jon Snow in charge of Riverrun. Edmure Tully is firstly, Robb Stark's uncle, and secondly, acting Lord of Riverrun. Edmure Tully would not be pleased to have a bastard placed above him and by putting Jon Snow in charge of Riverrun, Robb Stark would be alienating the Tullys, his own family, and the Riverlords, who consist of half his Kingdom. Furthermore, it is highly doubtful that Jon Snow would be able to command the Riverlords, that is, the Riverlords may not obey him, even if Robb Stark manages to force Jon Snow upon them.

As for Lord Walder wanting to marry an illegitimate (or even legitimate) daughter to Jon Snow, that is a possibility. Lord Walder has many daughters and granddaughters who need husbands. Ned Stark's illegitimate son and Robb Stark's right hand man is a good match for Lord Walder's illegitimate daughter and/or granddaughter. Whether Jon Snow will agree to it is another matter. He will if Robb Stark orders and/or needs him too but willingly of his own accord, probably not.

Robb Stark sent Theon Greyjoy to deal with Lord Balon because Theon Greyjoy is Lord Balon's son, not because Robb Stark lacked for envoys. Robb Stark felt that he could trust Theon Greyjoy and that Lord Balon would be more receptive to his son and heir rather than a stranger, or someone who had a hand in the death of his sons in the first Greyjoy rebellion. Nonetheless, if Robb Stark sent Jon Snow to the Iron Islands to deal with Lord Balon, Jon Snow would never have been allowed to leave the Iron Islands alive since Lord Balon did not want word of him mustering his forces to get out. Lord Balon could capture Jon Snow and demand a trade in exchange for his son Theon to be returned to him but I doubt that since it would then allow word of him mustering his forces to leave the Iron Islands. Lord Balon had long given up on his sole surviving son, choosing to place all his hopes on his daughter, whom he regards as a son. It is likely Lord Balon would have attacked the North whether or not Theon Greyjoy was returned to him or remained with the Starks. Clearly he was planning to do so even before Theon Greyjoy returned to Iron Islands; perhaps he was already planning his attack before he knew his son would be returned to him. If Robb Stark chose to execute Theon Greyjoy in retaliation, so be it. Lord Balon had already lost two sons and perhaps he felt he lost the third son also when Lord Eddard took him as his ward. Lord Balon however could use the threat of executing Jon Snow to stay Robb Stark's hand. Jon Snow would likely remain in a dungeon in Pyke, if Lord Balon decided not to kill him, yet, and it is quite possible that his direwolf Ghost, if Jon Snow took Ghost with him to the Iron Islands, would be killed.

All in all, I doubt Robb Stark would leave Jon Snow behind in Riverrun or at the Twins. I think Robb Stark would have taken Jon Snow with him. Robb Stark and Jon Snow are like brothers and Robb Stark would likely want his companion since infancy to be beside him during the trials and tribulations and their father's death.

I agree with this up the point of the Red Wedding. I think once he made Jon his heir, he'd have sent him away. He would not want his heir to go to Moat Cailin with him but he might have ended up at the Red Wedding anyway.

I like to think that he would have been announced as his heir and left in the Riverlands or sent to the Westerlands.

I'd have liked to see him fighting with the Blackfish while Robb was off fighting his larger battles, thatw would have been fun and Ghost would have made an excellent tool for such ranging.

[David Selig]

Jon got all the same lessons from Ned that Robb did. If Robb is a competent commander despite his young age, why wouldn't Jon be?

The only other Northern bastard whom we see taking a military role is Ramsay... and his father's men seem to have no problem taking orders from him. Given that Jon is a much better person than Ramsay, I'm not buying your assertion that they wouldn't follow a bastard if the bastard was granted the command by the reigning Stark.

Even Robb isn't dumb enough to give command to a 15 year old bastard.

[the conquoring bastard25]

He might not give him the command but maybe had him in the councils and had him as the second in command if he left Jon under a more seasoned battle commander. Let Jon show any skill at planning an attack or leading men after a couple of battles, men would be more inclined to listen to him and show him respect.

I agree that right off the bat no Robb wouldn't give him command, yet I do think that he would place in under someone for seasoning.

By the time they head West I could see Jon having command of a small company of men. Scouts maybe as he has ghost with him and that certainly help. IT was Grey wind who found that goat track in the west that let them slip them around the Golden Passes. Hell Jon's no Theon Greyjoy with a bow and arrow but he's no slouch. If the golden pass where there was a natural chock point that Robb wanted to attack Tywin from, I could even see him giving the command of the archers. Or split the company of archer and one under Theon and one under Jon.

There is one situation that Jon were would make the perfect envoy. That would be treating with Tyrion Lannister. They might not get anything done, but he scenes would be very interesting to watch. To see if Tyrion is going to change because he's gotten a taste of power. Would he treat Jon honorably as he's can't stomach most of his family and they are all bastards. Yet jon's an actual bastard and we all know Tyrion has a special place in his black heart for bastards,cripples and broken things.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't know about strategy but I know that if he was near him Robb might send him to WF to take care of Bran and Rickon. In any case he would have gave his life to save his brothers and only for that I thank Cat for being a bully, without her emotinal abuse and her throwing him out of his home Jon would be dead.

[Winter's Prince]

Jon would have definitely told Robb to marry a Frey before going south, just like Ned.

Jon would have ruled against sending Theon to Pyke

Jon would have warned Robb about Roose. Yes maybe Roose still gets to command the Green Fork, but Jon would have made sure they returned to Riverrun rather than sitting idling by at the Twins.

Instead of Cat, Jon might have advised sending Mallister, Blackwood, or Glover to treat with Renly. Jon probably would have went too, not to lead negiotions but rather maintain a presence. After Renly's death he might have accompanied the Tyrells back to Highgarden, seduced Margaery, and or won them over, purely speculation who knows.

He would have told Robb to remain LP and not ascend to kingship, especially in the middle of a war.

Karstark execution and Jamie's escape still could have happen. I think its to much to say Jon could have prevented everything. Jon also might have served as one of the commanders next to Roose at Harrenhal.

Despite Robb being groomed to lead, I feel as though Jon was the one who really listened to Ned.

[Salinda]

Jon would have definitely told Robb to marry a Frey before going south, just like Ned.

Jon would have ruled against sending Theon to Pyke

Jon would have warned Robb about Roose. Yes maybe Roose still gets to command the Green Fork, but Jon would have made sure they returned to Riverrun rather than sitting idling by at the Twins.

Instead of Cat, Jon might have advised sending Mallister, Blackwood, or Glover to treat with Renly. Jon probably would have went too, not to lead negiotions but rather maintain a presence. After Renly's death he might have accompanied the Tyrells back to Highgarden, seduced Margaery, and or won them over, purely speculation who knows.

He would have told Robb to remain LP and not ascend to kingship, especially in the middle of a war.

Karstark execution and Jamie's escape still could have happen. I think its to much to say Jon could have prevented everything. Jon also might have served as one of the commanders next to Roose at Harrenhal.

Despite Robb being groomed to lead, I feel as though Jon was the one who really listened to Ned.

Why do people think Jon would be this super leader when he is just as stupid as Robb is?

Must it be said that they both ended their respective attempts at leadership in exactly the same way?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

Despite Robb being groomed to lead, I feel as though Jon was the one who really listened to Ned.

I agree with you on many points but especially the last part I agree totally with you. When Jon talked to Stannis about the Northerner Lords and how he should treat them he proved to have payed attention what Ned said.

[Roddy the Ruin]

I miss Robb :( ....

[Pod The Impaler]

Even Robb isn't dumb enough to give command to a 15 year old bastard.

Sure. And then Robb would look in a mirror, realize he's the same age, and resign as king. It's the sensible thing to do.

:dunce:

[Salinda]

I agree with you on many points but especially the last part I agree totally with you. When Jon talked to Stannis about the Northerner Lords and how he should treat them he proved to have payed attention what Ned said.

I wonder if he paid any attention when Ned taught him about the neutrality of the Nights Watch

[Ingelheim]

I wonder if he paid any attention when Ned taught him about the neutrality of the Nights Watch

Are you a trol? Serious question.

[David Selig]

Jon would have definitely told Robb to marry a Frey before going south, just like Ned.

Jon would have ruled against sending Theon to Pyke

Jon would have warned Robb about Roose. Yes maybe Roose still gets to command the Green Fork, but Jon would have made sure they returned to Riverrun rather than sitting idling by at the Twins.

Instead of Cat, Jon might have advised sending Mallister, Blackwood, or Glover to treat with Renly. Jon probably would have went too, not to lead negiotions but rather maintain a presence. After Renly's death he might have accompanied the Tyrells back to Highgarden, seduced Margaery, and or won them over, purely speculation who knows.

He would have told Robb to remain LP and not ascend to kingship, especially in the middle of a war.

Karstark execution and Jamie's escape still could have happen. I think its to much to say Jon could have prevented everything.

No!!! Come on, your post started so well, how could you say the Chosen One wouldn't have fixed everything? :cool4:

Jon is no smarter than Robb, he just has this "field" which makes all his opponents become idiots for his benefit and bucketloads of luck.