Robb and Jon if they had been together?

[Boarsbane]

well if you listen to the Jon haters it's because he's a bastard that he shouldn't be given command.

When they aren't thinking that it doesn't matter if he's a bastard the king commands and the lords obey. IF Robb wants is brother to fight by his side or lead his men into battle it's Robb's choice as king.

Might this cause problems it can but it's Robb's royal right to do as he pleases in regrads to his leaders and commanders. Not to mention that unlike these older and more experienced men none of them besides Jon were trained about war craft by Ned Stark or holds the same values when planning a battle that Jon would have. They learned warcraft from one of most practical and even headed leaders in the books. Which means that they would probably have at least similar ideas of how to attack and approach different situations.

He's a bastard, he is arrogant and entitled, and he has never seen a battle in his life. Like it or not him being a bastard would matter to Robb's bannermen, especially if they got put under his command. I doubt Ned Stark would of taught Jon warcraft, that seems to be a maester's job but even if he did that doesn't make up for lack of experience. There are simply better men to lead Robb's armies and no amount of fanboyism is going to change that.

[Boarsbane]

Jon got all the same lessons from Ned that Robb did. If Robb is a competent commander despite his young age, why wouldn't Jon be?

The only other Northern bastard whom we see taking a military role is Ramsay... and his father's men seem to have no problem taking orders from him. Given that Jon is a much better person than Ramsay, I'm not buying your assertion that they wouldn't follow a bastard if the bastard was granted the command by the reigning Stark.

Because they aren't clones.

Ramsay is commanding lowborn soldiers, Jon would be commanding lords who were fighting wars before Jon even left Rhaegar/Ned's balls.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Let' me ask you this given what we know about the two boys and why type of men they come to be who do you think makes a better ruler?

[complexphoenix]

He's a bastard, he is arrogant and entitled, and he has never seen a battle in his life. Like it or not him being a bastard would matter to Robb's bannermen, especially if they got put under his command. I doubt Ned Stark would of taught Jon warcraft, that seems to be a maester's job but even if he did that doesn't make up for lack of experience. There are simply better men to lead Robb's armies and no amount of fanboyism is going to change that.

Jon was trained in arms alongside Robb and they practiced shouting together so that their men would be able to hear their commands. So the text shows that yes, Ned taught both of them the art of war.

And again: if being a bastard is so disqualifying, please explain to me why Ramsay's orders get followed?

[complexphoenix]

Because they aren't clones.

Ramsay is commanding lowborn soldiers, Jon would be commanding lords who were fighting wars before Jon even left Rhaegar/Ned's balls.

Robb is just as green as Jon, yet his lords follow him. You seem to be sliding back and forth between "bastard" and "green" even though we have clear examples to show that neither is disqualifying. Arguing that neither is disqualifying alone, but both together are, seems like ridiculous hairsplitting that doesn't actually have any textual evidence to back it.

[Minsc]

Jon got all the same lessons from Ned that Robb did. If Robb is a competent commander despite his young age, why wouldn't Jon be?

The only other Northern bastard whom we see taking a military role is Ramsay... and his father's men seem to have no problem taking orders from him. Given that Jon is a much better person than Ramsay, I'm not buying your assertion that they wouldn't follow a bastard if the bastard was granted the command by the reigning Stark.

Just taking the same lessons doesn't make on the same skill set, as seen how Robb was a better commander then Theon despite Theon also receiving the same lessons from Ned. Similarly, there is nothing to indicate Jon is Robb's equal in battle command especially when looking at his battle strategies as LC. In that Hardhome is likely suicide venture and that he was about to walk into a trap by Ramsay after the Pink Letter. Simply, Tywin would have destroyed Jon and his forces if Robb gave him command.

Ramsay likely is only leading direct Bolton men when he was still a Snow, while in contrast you are suggesting Jon led higher echelons of the Northern nobility (Boltons, Karstarks, and Umbers).

[Boarsbane]

Jon was trained in arms alongside Robb and they practiced shouting together so that their men would be able to hear their commands. So the text shows that yes, Ned taught both of them the art of war.

And again: if being a bastard is so disqualifying, please explain to me why Ramsay's orders get followed?

Rodrik taught them how to fight and I don't see how shouting matches is learning warcraft.

Because Ramsay was leading lowborn soldiers, if Jon was put in charge of Robb's 2nd army he would be leading Robb's most powerful bannermen which would piss them and rightfull so because it makes no sense to give him the command.

[the conquoring bastard25]

We see repeatly that Ned taught his bastard something about war craft.

A battle commander voice and lungs are just important as his ability to plan a battle. if the commands can't be heard it doesn't matter.

A wall is only as strong as the men that are guarding it

He knows his history about the different castles in the north.

He tells Stannis how to get his troops and how to move them unseen through the mountains.

He looks at the map and breaks down why Stannis's plan wouldn't work. That his father often told him that the map wasn't the land.

He told those southern fools about the Moat and that it's never been taken from the south and why because of the castways, and Reed can play havic with an army coming up the castaways and that to stop an approach you wouldn't need a lot of men to hold the Moat from the South. FRom the north and east the ruins are vulnerable which echos Robb's words about his plan to attack the Moat. So do tell me that Ned didn't teach is bastard nothing

[complexphoenix]

Just taking the same lessons doesn't make on the same skill set, as seen how Robb was a better commander then Theon despite Theon also receiving the same lessons from Ned. Similarly, there is nothing to indicate Jon is Robb's equal in battle command especially when looking at his battle strategies as LC. In that Hardhome is likely suicide venture and that he was about to walk into a trap by Ramsay after the Pink Letter. Simply, Tywin would have destroyed Jon and his forces if Robb gave him command.

Ramsay likely is only leading direct Bolton men when he was still a Snow, while in contrast you are suggesting Jon led higher echelons of the Northern nobility (Boltons, Karstarks, and Umbers).

At the time Robb assumed command, he was just as unproven as Jon, so the fact that Jon remains unproven is irrelevant to the question of whether he might have been granted the command.

Again, you're hairsplitting. Ramsay leads highborn men in ADWD... yeah, he's been legitimized, but is there any evidence that his legitimization has actually made anyone think more highly of him? None that I can see...

[Boarsbane]

Robb is just as green as Jon, yet his lords follow him. You seem to be sliding back and forth between "bastard" and "green" even though we have clear examples to show that neither is disqualifying. Arguing that neither is disqualifying alone, but both together are, seems like ridiculous hairsplitting that doesn't actually have any textual evidence to back it.

Robb is their acting liege lord and they follow him grudgingly until he proves himself. I'm not sliding back and fourth, he is both a bastard and a green boy as far as Robb's bannermen are concerned. Ramsay leading a small army of peasants is not comparable to Jon being put in command of most of Robb's army over more battle-tested men like Roose Bolton.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Yet him leading peasants isn't the only time that we see Ramsay leading men. When he was on the hunt for the Frey's missing kin, there are high born men in the party and Snow is leading the party.

His father gives the command to move out of WF and it's the Bastard who shouts you heard my father now get moving and men moved fast enough.

His attack on the moat wasn't only dealing with Theon, he gave orders to others while there. Then there is the meeting with the Karstarks he wasn't legit at that time. He was still a bastard and they teated with the bastard so where is the slight

Not to mention that after the dragons came, house Stark is actually survived by a bastard line.

When Torrehen laid down his crown it was his brother who made is peace and as torrhen wasn't married and had no children. Brandon Snow his brother the one that wanted to shoot arrows at the dragons became the next lord of Winterfell. SO what was that about men not wanting to follow a bastard or a bastard's commands.

[of man and wolf]

Jaime would cut Jon to pieces before Ghost could even react.

A direwolf is faster than a man with a sword, not even close. In fact, Ghost would have torn Jamie to pieces before Jamie even knew Ghost was on his tail. Jamie would have never gotten near to Jon.

[Minsc]

At the time Robb assumed command, he was just as unproven as Jon, so the fact that Jon remains unproven is irrelevant to the question of whether he might have been granted the command.

Again, you're hairsplitting. Ramsay leads highborn men in ADWD... yeah, he's been legitimized, but is there any evidence that his legitimization has actually made anyone think more highly of him? None that I can see...

Robb is also their heir, while Jon is just a green bastard there is the difference.

Legitimization makes it so that he is Roose's heir.

What argument is there for Robb will stupidly appoint Jon ahead of Roose, Rickard, Greatjon, etc besides the fact that Robb likes him. Simply, Robb liked Theon (who received similar training as him) yet that didn't mean Theon became a leader of Robb's men.

[Boarsbane]

Yet him leading peasants isn't the only time that we see Ramsay leading men. When he was on the hunt for the Frey's missing kin, there are high born men in the party and Snow is leading the party.

His father gives the command to move out of WF and it's the Bastard who shouts you heard my father now get moving and men moved fast enough.

His attack on the moat wasn't only dealing with Theon, he gave orders to others while there. Then there is the meeting with the Karstarks he wasn't legit at that time. He was still a bastard and they teated with the bastard so where is the slight

Not to mention that after the dragons came, house Stark is actually survived by a bastard line.

When Torrehen laid down his crown it was his brother who made is peace and as torrhen wasn't married and had no children. Brandon Snow his brother the one that wanted to shoot arrows at the dragons became the next lord of Winterfell. SO what was that about men not wanting to follow a bastard or a bastard's commands.

Ramsay was legitimized, he wasn't a bastard any longer so not really relevant.

[the conquoring bastard25]

You want a real world example of a bastard leading men?

Willam the Conquer. Need I say more. Well I will, let's start with he's the son of a tanner on his mother's side and a lord of Normandy by his father. Yet he's still a bastard and his mother is low born to boot.

Edward the Concillor named his bastard cousin to kingship of England. A bastard mind you when he had English cousins that could have taken the crown and one of them did try to deny William the crown.

You know what happen when this said cousin denied the conquer his crown. He torn England and the English nobles a new asshole.

That's a real world example.

Scotland is rift with bastards helping rule the kingdom. If I remember my history correctly the first king of house Steward was bastard born. Yet he still rose to a kingship and served the English fire and blood from the northern border and beyond.

[The Wolves]

Ramsay was legitimized, he wasn't a bastard any longer so not really relevant.

Ramsey's legitimization is only valid in the eyes of the people who recognize that false Baratheon bastard as King, and the North as a whole doesn't.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Not when he was treating with the Karstarks he was still a bastard and he was handling the negotiations.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Wolves that's a brilliant point. Expecially as the order to make him legit is coming from a bastard themselves. Then there's the fact that some of the lords might not reconzie the IT's authority anymore and they did try and fight for their independence.

[Minsc]

Ramsey's legitimization is only valid in the eyes of the people who recognize that false Baratheon bastard as King, and the North as a whole doesn't.

Those who don't accept the false Baratheon bastard as king aren't following Roose, thus aren't under Ramsay's command.

Not when he was treating with the Karstarks he was still a bastard and he was handling the negotiations.

What instance is that?

[Boarsbane]

You want a real world example of a bastard leading men?

Willam the Conquer. Need I say more. Well I will, let's start with he's the son of a tanner on his mother's side and a lord of Normandy by his father. Yet he's still a bastard and his mother is low born to boot.

Edward the Concillor named his bastard cousin to kingship of England. A bastard mind you when he had English cousins that could have taken the crown and one of them did try to deny William the crown.

You know what happen when this said cousin denied the conquer his crown. He torn England and the English nobles a new asshole.

That's a real world example.

Scotland is rift with bastards helping rule the kingdom. If I remember my history correctly the first king of house Steward was bastard born. Yet he still rose to a kingship and served the English fire and blood from the northern border and beyond.

William the Conquer wasn't a 14 year old boy. Jon wasn't in command of the army, Robb was. They have nothing in common other than being bastards.