Heresy 99

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 99, the latest edition of the very fast moving thread that tries to work out what’s really going in the over-arching Song of Ice and Fire.

As mentioned we’ve now reached the end, for the moment at least, of Mace Cooterian’s Centennial Seven project aimed at defining the seven major heresies and bringing together the textual evidence, current thinking and arguments surrounding them but there’s now a chance to revisit as your humble servants write up the final versions of the essays for inclusion in very shortly in Heresy 100: the Centennial Edition.

It promises as our American colleagues would say, awesome and by popular demand, as they say, we’re giving consideration to a second round of themed editions, covering different topics, so we’re looking both for suggestions and for volunteers – though be warned, the allocation of writers to topics will once again be randomised. One of the strengths of this first round was that those writing the Ops were not allowed to indulge in their own favourite hobby-horses but had to work hard on something new and so deliver up a completely fresh treatment. Drop a PM to Mace if you’re interested.

What has always made Heresy so different of course and more vibrant and exciting than other threads is that while the theories discussed here have evolved and are often fiercely debated, what we are really looking at is the whole Song of Ice and Fire and therefore I’d like to suggest that over the next couple of threads in the run up to Heresy 100, we not only tie up the loose ends of the Seven, but look at the connections, the parallels and how it really does hang together – or not – in the Sing of Ice and Fire

We can’t claim to know as much as we’d like to, far less definitively predict how this is all going to turn out, (or have the arrogance to pretend that we do) but I do think we can fairly claim that the ongoing discussion on these pages takes us far deeper into the story than we have ever been before and into a far better understanding of the Song of Ice and Fire.

In the meantime also, here’s a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy and will also house the archives created by the Centennial Seven project. Above all please don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[nanother]

In going through all accounts of wight and ww encounters, I found these passages that somehow avoided my attention before, and I don't recall them being discussed in Heresies, at least not as regularly as some others:

(Prologue, ASoS)

The wind was rising as the shadows lengthened. it made a high thin sound as it shivered through the stones of the ringwall. “I hate that sound,” little Giant said. “It sounds like a babe in the brush, wailing away for milk.”

That’s a particularly disturbing comparison to use, considering what’s about to happen…

(first Sam chapter in ASoS)

The Mother was merciful, all the septons agreed, but the Seven had no power beyond the Wall. This was where the old gods ruled, the nameless gods of the trees and the wolves and the snows. “Mercy,” he whispered then, to whatever might be listening, old gods or new, or demons too, “oh, mercy, mercy me, mercy me.”

An unusual way of putting it.

[Melifeather]

I'm looking forward to the summaries, and I hope to present one of the themes. Will we not be able to present our own thematic idea?

Here are my last two posts from the previous thread that I was hoping to get feedback on:

If White Walkers and wights are drawn to human warmth, then is Mance responsible for drawing them towards the Wall?

What triggered the attacks?

1) Mance became King Beyond the Wall, then after an increase in attacks from wights, he decides to bring the wildlings to attack the Wall.

OR

2) Mance became King Beyond the Wall, gathers the wildlings with the intent to attack the Wall, and then the wights begin attacking the group after that.

The wildlings have been living with wights for a very long time, but something has caused the attacks to increase. Winter was coming regardless, that's why the White Walkers awoke from their sleep underneath the ice, but they are following Mance because that's where the warm human bodies are. A larger group of people would naturally mean a larger amount of heat gets centralized in one area and that would draw more attacks.

Maybe we haven't seen a lot of White Walkers yet because winter is just getting started?

Posted Today, 03:15 PM

On the subject of White Walkers and the possibility that ice and fire are on a collision course, do you suppose the phrase Valar Morghulis, meaning All Men Must Die, is the along the same lines as the Twilight Zone's To Serve Man? To Serve Man was an episode where humans are provided a book by aliens and at first believe the aliens want to help them, when in fact they want to eat them and the book is a cookbook. All Men Must Die could mean that all humans eventually do die, but what if it's the end result of when Ice and Fire meet? What if this is the Children/singers intent? They may believe that all men must die.

http://www.westeros...._S4_Key-Art.jpg

[Black Crow]

That second quote from Sam is rather reminiscent of Qhorin Halfhand's reference to the Old Gods of the First Men, and of the Starks

But with that thought, as its 22:50 here, to bed, to sleep, perchance to dream, etc.

[wolfmaid7]

In going through all accounts of wight and ww encounters, I found these passages that somehow avoided my attention before, and I don't recall them being discussed in Heresies, at least not as regularly as some others:

(Prologue, ASoS)

The wind was rising as the shadows lengthened. it made a high thin sound as it shivered through the stones of the ringwall. I hate that sound, little Giant said. It sounds like a babe in the brush, wailing away for milk.

Thats a particularly disturbing comparison to use, considering whats about to happen

(first Sam chapter in ASoS)

The Mother was merciful, all the septons agreed, but the Seven had no power beyond the Wall. This was where the old gods ruled, the nameless gods of the trees and the wolves and the snows. Mercy, he whispered then, to whatever might be listening, old gods or new, or demons too, oh, mercy, mercy me, mercy me.

An unusual way of putting it.

I noted that on the other thread not the whole quote, but I agree it is quite disturbing.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I'm looking forward to the summaries, and I hope to present one of the themes. Will we not be able to present our own thematic idea?

Here are my last two posts from the previous thread that I was hoping to get feedback on:

If White Walkers and wights are drawn to human warmth, then is Mance responsible for drawing them towards the Wall?

What triggered the attacks?

1) Mance became King Beyond the Wall, then after an increase in attacks from wights, he decides to bring the wildlings to attack the Wall.

OR

2) Mance became King Beyond the Wall, gathers the wildlings with the intent to attack the Wall, and then the wights begin attacking the group after that.

The wildlings have been living with wights for a very long time, but something has caused the attacks to increase. Winter was coming regardless, that's why the White Walkers awoke from their sleep underneath the ice, but they are following Mance because that's where the warm human bodies are. A larger group of people would naturally mean a larger amount of heat gets centralized in one area and that would draw more attacks.

Maybe we haven't seen a lot of White Walkers yet because winter is just getting started?

Posted Today, 03:15 PM

On the subject of White Walkers and the possibility that ice and fire are on a collision course, do you suppose the phrase Valar Morghulis, meaning All Men Must Die, is the along the same lines as the Twilight Zone's To Serve Man? To Serve Man was an episode where humans are provided a book by aliens and at first believe the aliens want to help them, when in fact they want to eat them and the book is a cookbook. All Men Must Die could mean that all humans eventually do die, but what if it's the end result of when Ice and Fire meet? What if this is the Children/singers intent? They may believe that all men must die.

http://www.westeros...._S4_Key-Art.jpg

On Mance..

I would not say Mance is ' responsible ' for bringing the WWs and wights to the Wall. Though, I would say Mance may have sped up their movement. I think a lot of the wights early on would be free folk making their way to Mance. Small groups moving through the wood that are easier to wightify.( For example, the group of dead free folk from the prologue of aGoT.) This horde of wights, and probably WWs, were used to demolish the Watch at the fist.

All in all It seems the WWs and wights and cold would move south on their own accord. Though Mance may have made a smoother, quicker ride south for them.

Edited for clarity and jibbery style oinkery what make no sense 'tall

[Dagda]

[quote name="Feather Crystal" post="5479810" timestamp="

If White Walkers and wights are drawn to human warmth, then is Mance responsible for drawing them towards the Wall?

What triggered the attacks?

1) Mance became King Beyond the Wall, then after an increase in attacks from wights, he decides to bring the wildlings to attack the Wall.

OR

2) Mance became King Beyond the Wall, gathers the wildlings with the intent to attack the Wall, and then the wights begin attacking the group after that.

[Grey Words]

A note from Heresy 98:

...

There's no comparison here with the cold which the white walkers bring with them. We obviously see other wights outside covered in hoar frost, like Ser Puddles' dead horse, but that's because its cold outside thanks to Ser Puddles and his brothers and there's no warmth in the dead bodies.

Regarding wights being associated with the cold, going back to the Jon vs wight Othor fight, if you go back to the point where Jon is in his room and is awakened and alerted by Ghost you hear about the deep cold and it even being darker - this seeming in association with the wight, Othor rising:

GOT pg 545:

"...the room seemed to grow darker and colder...It’s me, Ghost,” he murmured, trying not to sound afraid. Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?"

"... Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?"

"Jon pushed himself to his feet. He was shivering uncontrollably,"

[Dagda]

A note from Heresy 98:

Regarding wights being associated with the cold, going back to the Jon vs wight Othor fight, if you go back to the point where Jon is in his room and is awakened and alerted by Ghost you hear about the deep cold and it even being darker - this seeming in association with the wight, Othor rising:

GOT pg 545:

"...the room seemed to grow darker and colder...It’s me, Ghost,” he murmured, trying not to sound afraid. Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?"

"... Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?"

"Jon pushed himself to his feet. He was shivering uncontrollably,"

Weirdly, separating those quotes out like that makes it sound an awful lot like Bram's count.

[Eira Seren]

I'm moving this post over from the end of thread 98.

Indeed, and the cold smell as I quoted above comes when Jon cuts into Othor's dead arm. There's no temperature change involved, its a smell which Jon and Dywen can only explain as cold and dead, rather than as literally being cold. Its probably like the dank smell you get in old stone cellars and comes from the wights being, well, dead...

I like this interpretation.

Touching again on the quote Wolfmaid provides:

Don't you smell it?".........

"Seems to me like it smells......Well......cold .

"Your head's ad wooden as your teeth," Hake told him."There's no smell to cold."

There is,thought Jon ,remembering the the night in the Lord Commander's chambers.It smells like death( Jon,ACOK,pg.514).

There could be a smell to cold, since there is a certain smell when it is going to snow.

As for more than one kind of cold, it could be. Some languages have many words for snow.

[Phillip Frye]

Rather than Mance drawing the Army of the Damned to the Wall, it makes more sense to say that he was herded there by slaying his outriders and keeping him moving towards the goal: emptying the lands beyond the Wall.

This is supported by the fact that the Army of the Damned doesn't proceed to the Wall after Stannis defeats the wildlings (for some reason the Army of the Damned also leaves Stannis' forces alone).

The wildlings are divided into five groups after their defeat: Mance and those captured by Stannis, Tormund's group, a group who tries to retreat north to Thenn, Mother Mole's group that proceeds to Hardhome, and the Weeper, who tries to force passage at the Shadow Tower.

Mance's group is unmolested by the wights until they proceed south. Tormund's group continues to suffer slow attrition by the occasional death as they hold back nearby, but they also proceed south after some time. It is important to note that Tormund's group is mostly left alone. I think it is because they stayed near Castle Black, where they were supposed to be herded.

We don't know exactly what happened to the wildlings who tried to flee north, unless Varamyr Sixskins and Thistle were part of that group. If they were, they were certainly hard-pressed. The fact that they were probably with the Thenn group is supported by the fact that Varamyr/One Eye winds up close to the COF cave. It is my opinion that the wildlings who fled north walked right into the Army of the Damned, swelling their ranks as new recruits.

After this, the Army of the Damned proceeds to Hardhome, where there are now lights going out and dead things in the water. It looks like the Army of the Damned is leaving alone the wildlings who are still trying to get across the Wall while slaughtering/recruiting those who try to stay north of the Wall or head in the wrong direction.

This leaves the Weeper. I would speculate that he has been unmolested so far, but that is probably because he is making desperate attempts to cross at the Shadow Tower. The problem with his group is his reputation. No one wants to let him across the Wall due to his propensity to commit atrocities. I think that the Army of the Damned will eventually get around to taking his group out, but it is leaving the Weeper alone for now because he is trying to move in the right direction, unlike the other two groups north of the Wall, who moved in the wrong direction (from the perspective of the Army of the Damned). If the Weeper's group wants to proceed south beyond the Shadow Tower, they probably need to walk up to the Bridge of Skulls with the Weeper's head on a spike. They might get across then.

[Melifeather]

Two random subjects....I've been watching the dvds of the GOT tv show. It's funny how some things just stick out like sore thumbs. Season 2, episode 5 has the Men of the Night's Watch at the Fist of the First Men. Sam is spewing his unwanted history lessons and mentions that the First Men stayed at the Fist all through the Long Night. Funny. I don't recall that bit of information being from the books. The other thing that stood out was after Renly is killed by the shadow, Brienne commits her life to Catelyn and they repeat their vows of promises to each other. Brienne makes Catelyn promise that when the time comes she won't hold her back from killing Stannis, which makes me think that at the end of Dance, perhaps Brienne shouts "Stannis" instead of "sword"?

[Toccs]

The other thing that stood out was after Renly is killed by the shadow, Brienne commits her life to Catelyn and they repeat their vows of promises to each other. Brienne makes Catelyn promise that when the time comes she won't hold her back from killing Stannis, which makes me think that at the end of Dance, perhaps Brienne shouts "Stannis" instead of "sword"?

GRRM has confirmed that it was "sword".

[wolfmaid7]

A note from Heresy 98:

Regarding wights being associated with the cold, going back to the Jon vs wight Othor fight, if you go back to the point where Jon is in his room and is awakened and alerted by Ghost you hear about the deep cold and it even being darker - this seeming in association with the wight, Othor rising:

GOT pg 545:

"...the room seemed to grow darker and colder...Its me, Ghost, he murmured, trying not to sound afraid. Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?"

"... Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?"

"Jon pushed himself to his feet. He was shivering uncontrollably,"

Thank you Grey words for reposting that quote

@. BC as you can see there was a cold feeling, I posted this quote before, so I don't get why people are saying the Wights don't have a cold themselves.

[Grey Words]

Weirdly, separating those quotes out like that makes it sound an awful lot like Bram's count.

Yup. Actually am most intrigued by it growing darker too. All of the signs are there.

Thank you Grey words for reposting that quote

@. BC as you can see there was a cold feeling, I posted this quote before, so I don't get why people are saying the Wights don't have a cold themselves.

Much obliged, Wolfmaid. Looking at the whole event with all of the details matters.

edit: finished thought

[aDanceWithFlagons]

A note from Heresy 98:

Regarding wights being associated with the cold, going back to the Jon vs wight Othor fight, if you go back to the point where Jon is in his room and is awakened and alerted by Ghost you hear about the deep cold and it even being darker - this seeming in association with the wight, Othor rising:

GOT pg 545:

"...the room seemed to grow darker and colder...It’s me, Ghost,” he murmured, trying not to sound afraid. Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?"

"... Yet he was trembling, violently. When had it gotten so cold?"

"Jon pushed himself to his feet. He was shivering uncontrollably,"

If you look back before Jon wakes up cold, you will see the weather changing. After arriving at Castle Black with the two 'dead' rangers, Jon makes his way to the LC's Tower. After leaving the Tower we get this description. 'The wind was rising, and it seemed colder in the yard than it had when he'd gone in. Spirit summer was drawing to an end.

Then two paragraphs down we get this description. 'A north wind had begun to blow by the time the sun went down. Jon could hear it skirling against the Wall and over the icy battlements as he went to the common hall for the evening meal.'

So the weather has changed from no wind, warm and humid when they found the bodies to windy and colder before Jon falls asleep that night.

The coldness allowed Othor and Jafer to reanimate. The coldness did not not come from these two wights.

[Toccs]

aDanceWithFlagons, your username always has me singing this song for hours after you post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gf39-AZ5bg

[wolfmaid7]

If you look back before Jon wakes up cold, you will see the weather changing. After arriving at Castle Black with the two 'dead' rangers, Jon makes his way to the LC's Tower. After leaving the Tower we get this description. 'The wind was rising, and it seemed colder in the yard than it had when he'd gone in. Spirit summer was drawing to an end.

Then two paragraphs down we get this description. 'A north wind had begun to blow by the time the sun went down. Jon could hear it skirling against the Wall and over the icy battlements as he went to the common hall for the evening meal.'

So the weather has changed from no wind, warm and humid when they found the bodies to windy and colder before Jon falls asleep that night.

The coldness allowed Othor and Jafer to reanimate. The coldness did not not come from these two wights.

While those quotes are correct,the quote above was specific to what was happening "in the vicinity" which is accurate. The above quote was what Jon felt near him and it accurate it was being emitted by the risen Wights..There could have been a Wight mass in the forest somewhere.If we look at the time when Chett noticed the cold wind rising to when the Wights attacked it was a bit a time that went by.Same with Bran and Co outside climbing the hill to the cave of the COTF. From the time the cold wind rose,to the cold which cold hands reported.My point being that the events are in succession and can be felt near and far

[aDanceWithFlagons]

aDanceWithFlagons, your username always has me singing this song for hours after you post.

Haha! That's good stuff. A true dance with flagons and singing to boot. I may add those lyrics to my signature.

[Toccs]

So the weather has changed from no wind, warm and humid when they found the bodies to windy and colder before Jon falls asleep that night.

The coldness allowed Othor and Jafer to reanimate. The coldness did not not come from these two wights.

:agree: