Ukraine III: appropriate handling required

[Ramsay Gimp]

Ramsey,

We all thought South Ossetia and Abkasia were outliers. Now Putin is moving on Crimea and possibly eastern Ukraine why should we presume he will not continue to reassemble the Soviet Empire?

Because all of those things were reactions to dramatic circumstances. I don't see any evidence they're part of some long-term plan to reestablish the old glory and might of the USSR

Russia is not the Third Reich

[Miodrag]

A question for all those who claim Russia is wrong and Putin is evil (sorry if something similar was brought up before, didn't check the entirety of this thread, not to mention earlier threads on the same topic): Would it be better off if, instead of legitimate concerns for Russian population and Russian interests, Kremlin stated that they possess undeniable evidence of WMD in Ukraine?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ramsey,

Then what are these aggressive military moves into neighboring nations about of not asserting Russian primacy and imperial style control over those former Soviet States? Don't these States have the right to determine their foreign policy free from Russian bullying?

[thetitansbastard]

Ramsey,

We all thought South Ossetia and Abkasia were outliers. Now Putin is moving on Crimea and possibly eastern Ukraine why should we presume he will not continue to reassemble the Soviet Empire?

The more I read up on this it seems that Moscow has re-occupied ex-Soviet states that are in a state of flux wherein the autonomus governments in question have welcomed the Russians, and maybe one can at least make the argument that some or most of the citizens of these states welcome them as well. It doesn't seem to be as simple as you are making it out. I'm not trying to be an apologist for Russia at all, but I am honestly not sure what to make of all this.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Ramsey,

Then what are these aggressive military moves into neighboring nations about of not asserting Russian primacy and imperial style control over those former Soviet States? Don't these States have the right to determine their foreign policy free from Russian bullying?

Only if Crimea has the same right in regards to Kiev

Reacting to dramatic political shifts in a way that protects your core interests (which for Putin/Russia means preventing encirclement) is not evidence of a long-term effort to build an empire

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Miodrag,

A question for all those who claim Russia is wrong and Putin is evil (sorry if something similar was brought up before, didn't check the entirety of this thread, not to mention earlier threads on the same topic): Would it be better off if, instead of legitimate concerns for Russian population and Russian interests, Kremlin stated that they possess undeniable evidence of WMD in Ukraine?

I don't think Putin is "evil". I think he is purely self interested and only cares about whether a State has the raw military power to stand up to the Russian army or the backing from formal alliances to give the Russian army pause. The real irony of your question is that had Ukraine held onto it's nukes and rejected Russian security assurances (that Russia is now ignoring) it would probably not be dealing with a Russian invasion right now. Putin would never risk a nuclear attack and as such wouldn't have invaded Crimea if Ukraine had "WMDs".

Yes, the "you're all hypocrits" argument holds no water for me. Imperial moves by the US are just as wrong as imperial moves by Russia.

[thetitansbastard]

A question for all those who claim Russia is wrong and Putin is evil (sorry if something similar was brought up before, didn't check the entirety of this thread, not to mention earlier threads on the same topic): Would it be better off if, instead of legitimate concerns for Russian population and Russian interests, Kremlin stated that they possess undeniable evidence of WMD in Ukraine?

Maybe, especially if Ukraine refused to renounce terrorism and would not cooperate with investigators after a million chances to avoid the invasion. And if it was just less than a year since 9/11 that would probably be the icing on the cake.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ramsey,

Is Russia in violation of the promises it made to Ukraine to induce it to give up its Nuclear weapons or not? This isn't a secession. This is conquest by a foreign power.

[thetitansbastard]

Ramsey,

Then what are these aggressive military moves into neighboring nations about of not asserting Russian primacy and imperial style control over those former Soviet States? Don't these States have the right to determine their foreign policy free from Russian bullying?

You have to make a destinction between Ukraine & Crimea and Georgia & South Ossetia/Abkhasia though. the autonomous governments wanted the Russians to come in.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

ttb,

Sure, what's amazing to me is how quickly the Russians have been able to move to captalize on these "requests". And what do the Russian troops massing near Kiev have to do with the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation?

[thetitansbastard]

ttb,

Sure, what's amazing to me is how quickly the Russians have been able to move to captalize on these "requests".

When were the first "requests" made? 1993 for all I know

[E-Ro]

A question for all those who claim Russia is wrong and Putin is evil (sorry if something similar was brought up before, didn't check the entirety of this thread, not to mention earlier threads on the same topic): Would it be better off if, instead of legitimate concerns for Russian population and Russian interests, Kremlin stated that they possess undeniable evidence of WMD in Ukraine?

Yeah this argument makes sense. You are basically saying "America did it so its ok! HYPOCRITES!" Just because the United States made a mistake and people were misled, does not give every country the right to invade whomever they want.

Also what threat are the Russian people under from the events in Ukraine?

I do think Russia is wrong, as for Putin I dont think hes evil, he is just a clown with more power then is healthy for someone like him to have.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Also what threat are the Russian people under from the events in Ukraine?

Russia has always viewed encirclement by the U.S. or NATO as an existential threat. Hence their hostility to any border state that wants closer ties/alliance with the West. Hard to blame them, when you have people like John McCain saying Georgia should join NATO or Obama trying to put missiles in Poland. How would we feel if Russia or China did the same things in Mexico?

[thetitansbastard]

. And what do the Russian troops massing near Kiev have to do with the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation?

Link?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

ttb,

So, the Russian troops on the ground in Crimea beseiging Ukrainian military posts there are just there out ofthe goodness of their hearts? The troops massing near Kiev, what is their purpose?

[thetitansbastard]

ttb,

So, the Russian troops on the ground in Crimea beseiging Ukrainian military posts there are just there out ofthe goodness of their hearts? The troops massing near Kiev, what is their purpose?

At this point I don't believe Russia has any interest in invading Kiev and have no knowledge of troops in Ukraine any where other than Crimea. The Crimean government supports the Russians being there.

[Miodrag]

Miodrag,

I don't think Putin is "evil". I think he is purely self interested and only cares about whether a State has the raw military power to stand up to the Russian army or the backing from formal alliances to give the Russian army pause. The real irony of your question is that had Ukraine held onto it's nukes and rejected Russian security assurances (that Russia is now ignoring) it would probably not be dealing with a Russian invasion right now. Putin would never risk a nuclear attack and as such wouldn't have invaded Crimea if Ukraine had "WMDs".

Yes, the "you're all hypocrits" argument holds no water for me. Imperial moves by the US are just as wrong as imperial moves by Russia.

First of, I see a lot of people - and especially pundits and political analysts in the Western media - has this idea that they're able to read Putin's mind at will. Hope it's not the case with you. I, for one, can't say any leader is purely self interested and only cares about this or that.

Second, I'm pretty sure USA and it's allies wouldn't invade Iraq had Saddam possessed nuclear weapons, or actual WMDs that can be used against US citizens and terithory.

Third, why can't we discuss which 'imperial moves', as you call them, are more greedy, more nasty, more violent and potentially more dangerous for the entire world? On one hand, we have a country, Russia, which under current leader so far intervened twice, both times right by their borders (let's assume their move in Ukraine is an intervention). On the other hand, we have a country that intervenes on other continents, and on clearly false premises - not only illegitimate, but also false, mind you.

And forth, can we stop pretending that USA and EU didn't intervene in Ukraine these past months? I mean, how many US and EU diplomats went there and directly supported violent demonstrators, significant portions of which are known as followers of fascist ideology, Russiaphobes, antisemits? What did Victoria Nuland tape discover? From that one conversation, we can clearly see that US is de facto influencing political situations in a foreign, sovereign country. And we can just imagine what was said and agreed on in conversations that weren't leaked! Shy of sending actual troops there (for which US and EU had no need, cause they had armed fascist extremists on the streets of Kiev shooting against legal government forces), that was an intervention, all right.

(Not to mention that Crimea is part of nowadays Ukraine only because communist authorities, always willing to play with internal borders, decided it like that in 1954 or thereabouts? Why is Russia expected to respect all of this: 1 - communist robbery of their historic lands; 2 - violent coup; 3 - blatant anti-Russian laws and sentiments brought up by new 'authorities' in Kiev the very moment they seized government buildings? Would any other superpower just ignore those developments?)

[E-Ro]

Russia has always viewed encirclement by the U.S. or NATO as an existential threat. Hence their hostility to any border state that wants closer ties/alliance with the West. Hard to blame them, when you have people like John McCain saying Georgia should join NATO or Obama trying to put missiles in Poland. How would we feel if Russia or China did the same things in Mexico?

It would cause no small amount of anger, im sure. Of course, I cant say what would happen but any time america does anything militarily the world shits a brick. So people being upset with Russia over this is justified, America would get the same amount of hate. In your hypothetical scenario of Russia or china putting missiles or a missile defense system in mexico and the united states responding with force, it would be wrong, imo when diplomatic measures could serve just as well. Of course the people in Washington that make these calls might disagree, bit I think invading Mexico over something like that would be stupid.

Third, why can't we discuss which 'imperial moves', as you call them, are more greedy, more nasty, more violent and potentially more dangerous for the entire world? On one hand, we have a country, Russia, which under current leader so far intervened twice, both times right by their borders (let's assume their move in Ukraine is an intervention). On the other hand, we have a country that intervenes on other continents, and on clearly false premises - not only illegitimate, but also false, mind you.

At the time the premises were neither "clearly false" or illegitimate. We didn't know Sadam didn't really have wmds until we went in after them. Since you know, he kept sending the inspection teams away. Lets not also forget about all the ethnic cleansing he did using chemical weapons, that was not a lie.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Miodrag,

The Maidan was a fascist movement supported by fascist sympathisers in the US and the EU... really?

[Miodrag]

Maybe, especially if Ukraine refused to renounce terrorism and would not cooperate with investigators after a million chances to avoid the invasion. And if it was just less than a year since 9/11 that would probably be the icing on the cake.

It's been more than a year, but Russia's memory of WW2 are understandably fresh. Like, Soviet Union lost around 24 million lives in the war, and the majority of those were Russians, naturally. So, what do you think, how is the nation with that kind of experience in not so distant past, to react if right across their borders a new regime is establishing through violence, and the most radical elements of that regime - which nobody from the regime or its foreign supporters is renouncing (quite the opposite) - are openly following fascist and nazi ideology? Wouldn't you agree that it's kinda a legitimate reason for concern? Possibly more legitimate than Saddam was for post-9/11 America?