Ukraine III: appropriate handling required

[Miodrag]

Miodrag,

The Maidan was a fascist movement supported by fascist sympathisers in the US and the EU... really?

You heard about the Right Sector?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Miodrag,

And what percentage of the Maidan was made up of "Right Sector"?

[thetitansbastard]

It's been more than a year, but Russia's memory of WW2 are understandably fresh. Like, Soviet Union lost around 24 million lives in the war, and the majority of those were Russians, naturally. So, what do you think, how is the nation with that kind of experience in not so distant past, to react if right across their borders a new regime is establishing through violence, and the most radical elements of that regime - which nobody from the regime or its foreign supporters is renouncing (quite the opposite) - are openly following fascist and nazi ideology? Wouldn't you agree that it's kinda a legitimate reason for concern? Possibly more legitimate than Saddam was for post-9/11 America?

I just don't think the Iraq War happens without 9/11. Much like the invasion of Crimea woudnt happen without the coup in Ukraine.

[jarl the climber]

ttb,

So, the Russian troops on the ground in Crimea beseiging Ukrainian military posts there are just there out ofthe goodness of their hearts? The troops massing near Kiev, what is their purpose?

I suppose it depends on how much weight you give to the Russians reasoning that they are protecting Russians in the Crimea. If it wasn't for that I would mostly agree with you, I'm just not sure how valid this really is. Clearly the Russians do have a real strategic interest in Crimea, with the naval base in Sevastapol and holding the entire Crimean Peniinsula gives depth to its defense.

[Miodrag]

Yeah this argument makes sense. You are basically saying "America did it so its ok! HYPOCRITES!" Just because the United States made a mistake and people were misled, does not give every country the right to invade whomever they want.

Also what threat are the Russian people under from the events in Ukraine?

I do think Russia is wrong, as for Putin I dont think hes evil, he is just a clown with more power then is healthy for someone like him to have.

I'm far for equating America in Iraq and Russia in Ukraine. Very far. For one, the map shows a clear difference. The match would've been a violent revolution in Mexico or Canada, after which radical anti-Americans took power, and right from the get-go start declaring laws against American language (for the sake of argument, let's assume it's a separate one from English).

And speaking of clowns, if Putin is one, then what can we say about the recent string of US presidents? Or French presidents? Or Italian primer ministers?

[Miodrag]

Miodrag,

And what percentage of the Maidan was made up of "Right Sector"?

Before the violence broke out, they made small percentage. But, they were instrumental in initiating violence. And after the street fights broke, they were by far the strongest force the police faced. Percents of extremists tend to rise once they're armed and ordinary people ran from the streets.

[Ramsay Gimp]

And speaking of clowns, if Putin is one, then what can we say about the recent string of US presidents? Or French presidents? Or Italian primer ministers?

E-Ro once called Roose Bolton a clown. I'm not sure what the word means to him, it just seems to be a generic insult.

No offense, E-ro :smug:

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Miodrag,

So, the allies in WWII should have rejected the Russian's alliance because of Stalin's pogroms and death camps? When bullets start flying people accept alliances from the worst elements.

Hell, Stalin split Poland with Hitler before the Germans invaded Russia.

[thetitansbastard]

E-Ro once called Roose Bolton a clown. I'm not sure what the word means to him, it just seems to be a generic insult.

No offense, E-ro :smug:

brilliant

[E-Ro]

I'm far for equating America in Iraq and Russia in Ukraine. Very far. For one, the map shows a clear difference. The match would've been a violent revolution in Mexico or Canada, after which radical anti-Americans took power, and right from the get-go start declaring laws against American language (for the sake of argument, let's assume it's a separate one from English).

And speaking of clowns, if Putin is one, then what can we say about the recent string of US presidents? Or French presidents? Or Italian primer ministers?

You do know that America had just been attacked right? We didnt just start on the warpath for the fuck of it. anyway as I said before, what on earth does the fact that America made a mistake have to do with what Putin is doing right now? The fact that one country messed up does not give every nation the right to mess around. The "america did something similar" argument is childish, and nonsensical.

At least American leaders have the good sense to come up with better excuses for invading people. america did not attempt to annex territory in any of the countries we invaded in the middle east. As for France and Italy, I cant speak to them.

E-Ro once called Roose Bolton a clown. I'm not sure what the word means to him, it just seems to be a generic insult.

No offense, E-ro :smug:

hahaha, yeah I stand by that tbh. I pretty much use clown as a replacement for jackass.

[jarl the climber]

@ E-Ro

My understanding is that the Crimea has been historicly Russian and that it still has a large Russian population, if this population is indeed threatened, as well as Russian acsess to Sevastapol then in my mind its behaivior is justified. Or it could be that Putin is being oppurtunistic and taking advantage of the chaos in the Ukraine to seize the Peninsula. At the very least Western diplomacy seemed to lack any foresight.

[thetitansbastard]

@ E-Ro

My understanding is that the Crimea has been historicly Russian and that it still has a large Russian population, if this population is indeed threatened, as well as Russian acsess to Sevastapol then in my mind its behaivior is justified.

And the government of Crimea asked them to come, to boot

[Miodrag]

At the time the premises were neither "clearly false" or illegitimate. We didn't know Sadam didn't really have wmds until we went in after them. Since you know, he kept sending the inspection teams away. Lets not also forget about all the ethnic cleansing he did using chemical weapons, that was not a lie.

There's also some hypocrisy there, considering that the very man, Saddam, was once a valuable ally of America, when they needed him against Iran in the 80s. But,. the hypocrisy is hardly the biggest offense here. Russia doesn't have to suspect anything today. The new regime in Kiev, after completing a violent revolution which brought them to power, started it's rule with laws against Russian language. Not to mention that some of the more colorful members of the new regime are criminal guys with a history of fighting wars against Russia and committing terrorist attacks against Russia.

This is just not "the same mistake" US did in Iraq. First, I don't think US intervention was a mistake, e.g. miscalculation that went wrong. If you believe that, think about a nice, cute bridge that would suit you like nothing before; happens I have one just like. It wasn't a mistake, it was a deliberate, calculated move, which US didn't withdrew so far, 11 years later. If US government really thought of it as a mistake, I guess they'd be out of there by now. Now, how is that comparable to what Russia is doing in Ukraine? Kremlin is not lying about the guys that took Kiev by force. I'll try to find and post some videos that would probably make clearer of what I'm talking about.

[E-Ro]

@ E-Ro

My understanding is that the Crimea has been historicly Russian and that it still has a large Russian population, if this population is indeed threatened, as well as Russian acsess to Sevastapol then in my mind its behaivior is justified. Or it could be that Putin is being oppurtunistic and taking advantage of the chaos in the Ukraine to seize the Peninsula. At the very least Western diplomacy seemed to lack any foresight.

Am I lacking some information here? How were ethnic Russians threatened by the rioting? It has been historically Russian, and sure, it has a large Russian population, but I dont see why that matters.

And the government of Crimea asked them to come, to boot

You mean the corrupt president that was legally ousted and had to flee the country?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Miodrag,

Hypocrisy is relevant in the realpolitik manuvering we're seeing from the Kremlin, how?

I saw the BBC videos of demonstrators armed with nothing but sheilds getting picked off by security service snipers then those same snipers shooting medics trying to pull the wounded demonstrators out of the line of fire. Are those rhe videos you're thinking of?

[thetitansbastard]

You mean the corrupt president that was legally ousted and had to flee the country?

Not sure, whoever the head of state of Crimea? But I think you might be thinking of ex-prez of Ukraine..

[E-Ro]

There's also some hypocrisy there, considering that the very man, Saddam, was once a valuable ally of America, when they needed him against Iran in the 80s. But,. the hypocrisy is hardly the biggest offense here. Russia doesn't have to suspect anything today. The new regime in Kiev, after completing a violent revolution which brought them to power, started it's rule with laws against Russian language. Not to mention that some of the more colorful members of the new regime are criminal guys with a history of fighting wars against Russia and committing terrorist attacks against Russia.

This is just not "the same mistake" US did in Iraq. First, I don't think US intervention was a mistake, e.g. miscalculation that went wrong. If you believe that, think about a nice, cute bridge that would suit you like nothing before; happens I have one just like. It wasn't a mistake, it was a deliberate, calculated move, which US didn't withdrew so far, 11 years later. If US government really thought of it as a mistake, I guess they'd be out of there by now. Now, how is that comparable to what Russia is doing in Ukraine? Kremlin is not lying about the guys that took Kiev by force. I'll try to find and post some videos that would probably make clearer of what I'm talking about.

yeah sometimes allies turn into enemies, welcome to life. How is that hypocrisy? anyway, can I get a description of these laws against Russian language? I would love to get some context for this statement. Also terrorist attacks against Russia? Criminals? What? Links please.

As for the second part of your post, I am having difficulty deciphering what exactly you mean. It is almost universally agreed that we shouldn't have gone into Iraq. Peoplke are pretty annoyed with all the fighting we have been in recently. Also, Kiev being taken by force has nothing to do with Russia. Even if it was, why would Kiev getting "taken by force" be an excuse for Russia conquering crimea?

[Miodrag]

What I found so far: video 1 and video 2. I don't speak Ukraine, but it's hardly needed, cause the guy's very explicit. The first video shows him scaring the living hell out of members of the State Prosecution office - from the translation I read, it appears he dares them to disarm him, if they can. The second video shows the same guy on the next day threatening and even hitting a Deputy Prosecutor. What's indicative is that this guy, named Muzicko by the way, has absolutely no problem of doing it in front of cameras. Speaks volumes about the new regime in Kiev, I'd say. Also, the guy is a veteran of the Chechen wars, meaning, he already fought against Russian forces on the Russian soil. He's Ukrainian, with no Chechen blood in him, which suggests he was there only because he wanted to kill some Russians. And there's lost of guys like him in the Right Sector. What is a Russian from Crimea, or Russian from Russia for that matter, to think when he sees this Muzicko character taking such actions not only with impunity, but clearly with the full support of the new regime?

[Ramsay Gimp]

@ E-Ro

My understanding is that the Crimea has been historicly Russian and that it still has a large Russian population, if this population is indeed threatened, as well as Russian acsess to Sevastapol then in my mind its behaivior is justified. Or it could be that Putin is being oppurtunistic and taking advantage of the chaos in the Ukraine to seize the Peninsula. At the very least Western diplomacy seemed to lack any foresight.

The problem with this, though, is that many of those Russians ended up in Ukraine/Crimea as replacements for native people forcibly removed by Stalin. It was a historical injustice that put them there - not that that is the fault of the current generation.

[jarl the climber]

Am I lacking some information here? How were ethnic Russians threatened by the rioting? It has been historically Russian, and sure, it has a large Russian population, but I dont see why that matters.

I've clearly stated that I am unsure if the ethnic Russian were in any danger from the change in governments, I have no idea one way or another. Its historical ties to Russia are important, they give it a legal pretext under international law. It also matters because it was this claim that allowed them in part to keep milatary forces in the Peninsula after the Sovie state broke apart.