Fez Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 It seems like the moral of the story is if you have nuclear weapons, don't ever give them up.. I'm sure North Korea and Iran are paying very close attention to what's going on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 WW2 has already happened. Really? Thank god you told us. It wasn't like they were drawing a parallel with history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 I'm sure North Korea and Iran are paying very close attention to what's going on here. I don't think Putin has much to teach the Kims about theatrics and escalation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I don't think Putin has much to teach the Kims about theatrics and escalation. Oh I don't know, I'd pay to see Kim Jong Un topless. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I don't think Putin has much to teach the Kims about theatrics and escalation. No. But the situation is showing that a country would be foolish to believe promises of border integrity in exchange for giving up nuclear weapons. Not that North Korea was likely to do so anyway of course, but now they have examples beyond their propaganda proving the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetitansbastard Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Was there any sign, that russian speakers in Crimea or anywhere in Ukraine were in danger before Russians stepped in? The coup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 No. But the situation is showing that a country would be foolish to believe promises of border integrity in exchange for giving up nuclear weapons. Not that North Korea was likely to do so anyway of course, but now they have examples beyond their propaganda proving the point. If they border Russia or China, sure. Iran's position is somewhat different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 When was the last time British or American or French or German assassins poisoned political enemies on the streets of Moscow? When did they brutally put down protest movements with gunfire? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootingshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benno_Ohnesorg (the policeman turned out to be a Stasi agent, but there seems to have been a cover-up by West German authorities). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benno_Ohnesorg (the policeman turned out to be a Stasi agent, but there seems to have been a cover-up by West German authorities). The most recent of those was 42 years ago. that's a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 ttb,The coup?You mean the coup that was the Ukrainian parliment voting to remove the President from power as allowed by the Ukrainian Constitution? That coup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Oh yes, and the French secret service blew up the Rainbow Warrior in 1985. I think that counts as murderous suppression of protest (as well as an act of war against New Zealand): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetitansbastard Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 ttb,You mean the coup that was the Ukrainian parliment voting to remove the President from power as allowed by the Ukrainian Constitution? That coup? Not familiar w/ the Constitution but yes. And sure it started before the formal vote, no? With no coup, you don't have a Russian invasion. I'm not too well read on this, but I was responding to the question as to what was the signal to Russia that ethnic Russians were potentially in danger. Where am I off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 And in that one there have been two investigations, the latest of which pointed to potential criminal investigations and also led to a formal apology by the PM. Not that I'm trying to justify it, but it's not a great point of comparison within current events.Agreed. Im not trying to whitewash the west or anything (we have done plenty bad). But those examples don't really compare with whats happening here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I thought a coup was the military forcing out a sitting President in an extra legal manner. If the Ukrainian Parliment followed the Ukrainian Constitution in removing Yuysehnko then it wasn't a coup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I'm sure North Korea and Iran are paying very close attention to what's going on here. And we should care why? So the non-threat bogeyman don't think we're "weak"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetitansbastard Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I thought a coup was the military forcing out a sitting President in an extra legal manner. If the Ukrainian Parliment followed the Ukrainian Constitution in removing Yuysehnko then it wasn't a coup. I just meant a series of events in which a certain group of people (in this case anti-Russian as I understand?) takes control of a state and disposes of the (in this case elected) government. I didn't think the definition was that specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 And we should care why? So the non-threat bogeyman don't think we're "weak"? Because it further diminishes the chances that they would ever disarm. Not that they were likely to of course, but maybe previously they would've if there was a regime chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Ramsey,So if the Russians conquer Moldovia and move on Romania that's no skin off our teeth. The precident of reestablishing the "right of conquest" is no big deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Ramsey,So if the Russians conquer Moldovia and move on Romania that's no skin off our teeth. The precident of reestablishing the "right of conquest" is no big deal? That's a lot different than moving in to Crimea, first of all. Does anyone actually think that's what Putin wants? And yes, frankly, even if that did happen I'd let Europe sort it out. Not everything is about us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Ramsey,We all thought South Ossetia and Abkasia were outliers. Now Putin is moving on Crimea and possibly eastern Ukraine why should we presume he will not continue to reassemble the Soviet Empire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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