HERESY 100

[aDanceWithFlagons]

There is a Grendel in literature prior to the one in GRRM’s works, and Tolkien wrote about Grendel as well. Grendel's story is part of an Anglo-Saxon poem titled Beowulf (AD 700-1000) contained in the Nowell Codex.

Grendel is usually depicted as a monster or a Giant although the text never directly describes his appearance. In most interpretations he is briefly referred to as a Sceadugenga, which means “shadow walker” or “night goer” given that he is repeatedly described to be in the shroud of darkness. In more modern interpretations Sceadugengan was meant to be a race of undead shapeshifters of which Grendel was a member.

Grendel and his mother are described as descendants of the Biblical Cain (credited as the first murderer), and that they eat humans.

The poem implies that Grendel may not be human, may be a berserker, or even a two-legged dragon. Here are a few lines from the poem:

…the other, warped

in the shape of a man, moves beyond the pale

bigger than any man, an unnatural birth

called Grendel by the country people

in former days.

Every nail, claw-scale and spur, every spike

and welt on the hand of that heathen brute

was like barbed steel. Everybody said

there was no honed iron hard enough

to pierce him through, no time proofed blade

that could cut his brutal blood caked claw.

There is also a song titled Grendel based on a book from Grendel's point of view. It has been along time since I read the book and only one read at that.

Some of the lyrics are in Greek, but from the ones in English we get

Wanted to be them but instead destroyed my chance

Wanted to see them but instead destroyed myself

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The sacrifices at Whitetree seem like a different type of sacrifice. Sheep and people are burned - different from Craster's sacrifice. Also different from letting blood and stringing up innards in tree branches. They all seem to tie-in.

[Black Crow]

Of course the other thing to remember about Grendel is that in the end he wasn't too much of a problem - its was Grendel's mother... :devil:

[King of Winters]

Of course the other thing to remember about Grendel is that in the end he wasn't too much of a problem - its was Grendel's mother... :devil:

And then of course there's a dragon at the end.

[Melifeather]

You are aware that in GRRM it's Gendel, right? In any case, the similarity to Grendel is surely no coincidence, thanks for pointing that out!

Yes, I had forgotten the "r", but the similarity to Grendel is so striking.

Just to bring this back home to Ice and Fire for a minute - and as another installment of my semi-regular apple comments - I should point out that Ice and Fire have particular relevance to the life cycles and reputations of apple trees.

Re: ICE - Not only are apples commonly known as the "king of winter fruit(s)," but apple seeds actually require a period of chilling (often freezing) temperatures to jump-start germination in the spring - a process referred to as "Cold Stratification." (If you ever want to grow apple seedlings out of season, it's recommended that you wet them, bag them, and leave them in the freezer for 60-90 days before planting...)

And Re: FIRE - One important issue for orchards to consider as they select apple varieties to cultivate is the issue of resistance to disease. And one of the most serious concerns for any orchard is the susceptibility of it's trees to Fire Blight - a contagious disease capable of destroying an entire grove in the span of one growing season.

---

As separate tie-in to the Ice and Fire topic, I propose that we try to rephrase the prophecy first referred to as the "Prince that was Promised," to account for two possible connections.

First, given Maester Aemon's observation about translational issues, I suggest we substitute the word "Dragon" for "Prince." I think we have some evidence that doing so makes sense.

The second change worth considering, I suggest, is a substitution of the word "Pact" for "Promise." That may feel like more of a stretch, because there is less evidence in-story to support a direct connection between the two words. But in this prophetic context, I would argue that the word "promise" implies a commitment or agreement by some agency of fate, some higher power (or "old power." In a Judeo-Christian context, this would look very similar to the concept of "Covenant." And "covenant" was also a significant issue for other religious and mythological traditions - particularly for Mithraism and related Vedic/Avestan cultures. Those traditions already look like sources of inspiration for aspects of Martin's story, and the nearest in-story equivalent of "covenant" that we've encountered so far is the word Pact.

The Pact made by the First Men is said to have been an agreement with the COTF. But as we know, the COTF believe that eventually - at the end of their long lives, if not before - they become one with the old gods represented by the weirwood. And since that time, we know that humans too have been selected for union with the trees as greenseers. So it may not be that much of a push to believing that men made this Pact, ultimately, with the old gods themselves.

The Targaryens who know of this "Prince/Dragon" prophecy appear to connect it in some way with blood - the "blood of the dragon," or the "blood" of their House. Given the maegi work of Mirri Maz Duur, and the fact that "across the years Brandon Stark could taste the blood" of First Men human sacrifice through the weir-net, we've seen from the story thus far is that blood magic and the Pact both appear to have been means of calling on the old powers (old gods) to bargain with humans.

...

I feel like there was another step of reasoning here I wanted to add, but I've once again been interrupted by the kids. So I'll ask you all to help me fill in the gaps, if you see any - though I acknowledge this is no open and shut case, but merely an idea.

How about it? Can we change the PtWP to the "Pact Dragon" prophecy?

(Or are we not quite there yet?)

.

It seems reasonable, to me at least, that there was an agreement with the old gods to push something north of the Wall. The Children may have followed that something because they wanted or needed to be near it. If it does turn out that there is a Grendel, oops I mean Gendel, then either Gendel is the Children or the Children gather food for Gendel.

And Gendel's mother, perhaps, are the women of Craster's Keep? Grendel's mother in the movie Beowulf was a seductress. Dun, dun, duuuuunnnn, enter "Val".

[Black Crow]

The sacrifices at Whitetree seem like a different type of sacrifice. Sheep and people are burned - different from Craster's sacrifice. Also different from letting blood and stringing up innards in tree branches. They all seem to tie-in.

Yes indeed, but judging by the condemnatory feel of that passage in the World Book it sounds as though one upon a time a blood sacrifice was required, but that was in times past and we're more civilised now, hence my suggestion that for the most part the First Men colluded with the Andals to embrace the Seven and throw off what Mormont referred to as the sterner gods.

[Melifeather]

Yes, I had forgotten the "r", but the similarity to Grendel is so striking.

It seems reasonable, to me at least, that there was an agreement with the old gods to push something north of the Wall. The Children may have followed that something because they wanted or needed to be near it. If it does turn out that there is a Grendel, oops I mean Gendel, then either Gendel is the Children or the Children gather food for Gendel.

And Gendel's mother, perhaps, are the women of Craster's Keep? Grendel's mother in the movie Beowulf was a seductress. Dun, dun, duuuuunnnn, enter "Val".

heh. I just thought of something funny. Corny, but funny. I'm not quite sure how to pronounce "Beowulf", but it looks like be a wolf. :rofl:

[nanother]

As separate tie-in to the Ice and Fire topic, I propose that we try to rephrase the prophecy first referred to as the "Prince that was Promised," to account for two possible connections.

First, given Maester Aemon's observation about translational issues, I suggest we substitute the word "Dragon" for "Prince." I think we have some evidence that doing so makes sense.

The second change worth considering, I suggest, is a substitution of the word "Pact" for "Promise." That may feel like more of a stretch, because there is less evidence in-story to support a direct connection between the two words. But in this prophetic context, I would argue that the word "promise" implies a commitment or agreement by some agency of fate, some higher power (or "old power." In a Judeo-Christian context, this would look very similar to the concept of "Covenant." And "covenant" was also a significant issue for other religious and mythological traditions - particularly for Mithraism and related Vedic/Avestan cultures. Those traditions already look like sources of inspiration for aspects of Martin's story, and the nearest in-story equivalent of "covenant" that we've encountered so far is the word Pact.

(snip)

I like this, but would have to think about it first. I agree that Aemon's words suggest translation from a language where 'dragon' was also used in the sense of a genderless 'prince', as in leader, person of renown or of high rank. What confuses me is that the prophecy also seems to explicitly mention dragons. At least the 'Azor Ahai' version does, and these two seem to be inseparable.

Also, pact with whom? While the workings of the Old Gods are more-or-less explained, we don't know what's behind the dragons. Well, there's this Rh'llor guy, the glass candles, and in general a certain similarity in how various factions of magic work, but apart from the Old Gods/CotF connection it's left pretty obscure so far.

[Urrax2]

heh. I just thought of something funny. Corny, but funny. I'm not quite sure how to pronounce "Beowulf", but it looks like be a wolf. :rofl:

If memory serves, it's in fact "bee-wolf," i.e. a bear (because bears notoriously raid beehives for the honey).

[Black Crow]

Also, pact with whom? While the workings of the Old Gods are more-or-less explained, we don't know what's behind the dragons. Well, there's this Rh'llor guy, the glass candles, and in general a certain similarity in how various factions of magic work, but apart from the Old Gods/CotF connection it's left pretty obscure so far.

Now there's an interesting one which hasn't been considered at all. We're prepared to look at the possibility of a connection between the Starks and Winter, originating perhaps in some pact back in the day with the Old Gods through the Singers. Ok we don't know the nature of it but its something we're at least prepared to accept and discuss the possible whys and wherefores, but the Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised business doesn't make any mention of a corresponding family pact with Fire.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yes indeed, but judging by the condemnatory feel of that passage in the World Book it sounds as though one upon a time a blood sacrifice was required, but that was in times past and we're more civilised now, hence my suggestion that for the most part the First Men colluded with the Andals to embrace the Seven and throw off what Mormont referred to as the sterner gods.

And add in Bran's vision we have confirmation of blood sacrifice. I agree that FM praticipated in this. Maybe miming the greenseers and the spirits that go into the roots, trunks and limbs of the trees. Or other reasons.

The tie in I was speaking of is the trees. I think the WWs have a connection to the trees also.

I forgot to add in that there must have been a few FM that slipped from the pact in olden times, threatening the balance. It seems these people would have been punished severely for that. Like execution before a heart tree?

[A Bastard Snow]

By the way seeing as Mel screwed up and thought Stannis was AA reborn (we all know that its Jon that fits the prophecy blood star and all that)Does anyone else wonder if Jon is going to find out Mel sorta..you know preformed blood magic to curse Robb?If he does that should be a very interesting conversation.

[wolfmaid7]

Now there's an interesting one which hasn't been considered at all. We're prepared to look at the possibility of a connection between the Starks and Winter, originating perhaps in some pact back in the day with the Old Gods through the Singers. Ok we don't know the nature of it but its something we're at least prepared to accept and discuss the possible whys and wherefores, but the Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised business doesn't make any mention of a corresponding family pact with Fire.

This is something little but if we look at the Targ words " I am the blood of the Dragon' it speaks of a little specificity to me.It would be easy to say " I have Dragon's blood".Sadly,there isn't a lot on Targ history pre Dragonstone.

Just to bring this back home to Ice and Fire for a minute - and as another installment of my semi-regular apple comments - I should point out that Ice and Fire have particular relevance to the life cycles and reputations of apple trees.

Re: ICE - Not only are apples commonly known as the "king of winter fruit(s)," but apple seeds actually require a period of chilling (often freezing) temperatures to jump-start germination in the spring - a process referred to as "Cold Stratification." (If you ever want to grow apple seedlings out of season, it's recommended that you wet them, bag them, and leave them in the freezer for 60-90 days before planting...)

And Re: FIRE - One important issue for orchards to consider as they select apple varieties to cultivate is the issue of resistance to disease. And one of the most serious concerns for any orchard is the susceptibility of it's trees to Fire Blight - a contagious disease capable of destroying an entire grove in the span of one growing season.

---

As separate tie-in to the Ice and Fire topic, I propose that we try to rephrase the prophecy first referred to as the "Prince that was Promised," to account for two possible connections.

First, given Maester Aemon's observation about translational issues, I suggest we substitute the word "Dragon" for "Prince." I think we have some evidence that doing so makes sense.

The second change worth considering, I suggest, is a substitution of the word "Pact" for "Promise." That may feel like more of a stretch, because there is less evidence in-story to support a direct connection between the two words. But in this prophetic context, I would argue that the word "promise" implies a commitment or agreement by some agency of fate, some higher power (or "old power." In a Judeo-Christian context, this would look very similar to the concept of "Covenant." And "covenant" was also a significant issue for other religious and mythological traditions - particularly for Mithraism and related Vedic/Avestan cultures. Those traditions already look like sources of inspiration for aspects of Martin's story, and the nearest in-story equivalent of "covenant" that we've encountered so far is the word Pact.

The Pact made by the First Men is said to have been an agreement with the COTF. But as we know, the COTF believe that eventually - at the end of their long lives, if not before - they become one with the old gods represented by the weirwood. And since that time, we know that humans too have been selected for union with the trees as greenseers. So it may not be that much of a push to believing that men made this Pact, ultimately, with the old gods themselves.

The Targaryens who know of this "Prince/Dragon" prophecy appear to connect it in some way with blood - the "blood of the dragon," or the "blood" of their House. Given the maegi work of Mirri Maz Duur, and the fact that "across the years Brandon Stark could taste the blood" of First Men human sacrifice through the weir-net, we've seen from the story thus far is that blood magic and the Pact both appear to have been means of calling on the old powers (old gods) to bargain with humans.

...

I feel like there was another step of reasoning here I wanted to add, but I've once again been interrupted by the kids. So I'll ask you all to help me fill in the gaps, if you see any - though I acknowledge this is no open and shut case, but merely an idea.

How about it? Can we change the PtWP to the "Pact Dragon" prophecy?

(Or are we not quite there yet?)

.

I like that change and have a belief that some type of pact took place between the Targs and the Dragons of Valyria. The " I am the blood of the Dragon" is to specific a phrase and i am reminded of the myth of the Dragon King in Japanese Mythology.

[Black Crow]

By the way seeing as Mel screwed up and thought Stannis was AA reborn (we all know that its Jon that fits the prophecy blood star and all that)Does anyone else wonder if Jon is going to find out Mel sorta..you know preformed blood magic to curse Robb?If he does that should be a very interesting conversation.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

While we generally have pretty open minds on this particular thread, I'd say that by and large we don't subscribe to the notion of Jon being Azor Ahai, but rather suspect he's soon going to find himself on the other side. Like Ghost he belongs to the Old Gods.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

By the way seeing as Mel screwed up and thought Stannis was AA reborn (we all know that its Jon that fits the prophecy blood star and all that)Does anyone else wonder if Jon is going to find out Mel sorta..you know preformed blood magic to curse Robb?If he does that should be a very interesting conversation.

I had not thought about Mel's supposed death of Robb. That's intresting. That could put up a wall between Jon and Mel(pun intended) . A lot of people think Stannis is not AA, but I have not counted him out, Yet.

[Black Crow]

Mel sorta..you know preformed blood magic to curse Robb?

Just for the record, I don't have the reference to hand but GRRM has confirmed that Mel's "magic" here was bullshit.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Just for the record, I don't have the reference to hand but GRRM has confirmed that Mel's "magic" here was bullshit.

Yep, I think she saw it in her flames, then pretended her leeches did the job. I am not saying it will be brought up, but she did claim to've killed Robb.

[Eira Seren]

That's the Hedge Knight introduction, and as its not a POV I'd take it as reasonably reliable. The way I read it, together with Old Nan's reference to the hundred kingdoms, is that there were 100 kingdoms of men at the agreeing of the Pact (hence also the 100 pieces of dragonglass) but that a lot of them were shattered or completely lost during the Long Night and that out of the ruins there was a process of consolidation that whittled them down into a smaller number of bigger ones. Remember that Maester Luwin refers to the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, which implies that the process began after the long night but wasn't necessarily complete when the Andals arrived far less that the kingdoms were in their present form.

Oh absolutely. My revised post added the question of if the FM came to terms with the Andals and this is what broke the Pact. As victors they (Andals) would want to hide the fact that their enemies-turned-allies is what allowed them to win the wars. Much better and stronger if the Andals did it all on their own and didn't make deals with turncloaks in order to claim supremacy.

There are a couple of points to be made here, first although the Andals get the blame its unlikely that the Singers would draw a distinction between two sets of white-eyes; they are all "men". Secondly, although the Andals serve as convenient scapegoats, they can only have carried through their killing and burning with at the very least the passive assistance of the First Men. We know that human sacrifice was involved in keeping the Old Gods so its entirely possible that large numbers of First Men sided with the Andals in ridding themselves of the Singers.

Then there's the question of the North. We're told that the North held out against the Andals, yet there too the Singers are gone. The Nights King story may be a parable of their expulsion from the North or they may simply have decided to remove themselves all the way north of the Wall without waiting for the potential arrival of mobs with axes, chainsaws and burning torches.

Either way there's a serious breach here, hence the business of the Pact lasting until the Andals came.

When the Singer were in the North after the Andals took the South I think the Night's King was still in power and once the Starks and Andal Kings struck a deal they knew there'd be no refuge of them there any more and the remaining Singers south of the Wall fled beyond it.

I'm gonna pause at this point and catch my breath before reading page 19 and 20. I've had a thought about this Andals founding the 7K business. Probably all gone over before, but I think there could be something to Maester Luwin's statement, that the 7K were beginning to form prior to the invasion of the Andals.

As observed by ADanceWithFlagons earlier, 6 Kingdoms would take longer to conquer and consolidate, which might fit with the theory that the Andal invasion was a process of incursions rather than the one, heralded landing at the Vale. However, that's not how they wrote their histories. Why?

Does it make them look mightier to present the story in this way? And what about the question of unification, of creating a specifically Andal national identity? Hence, things like marriages occur, but some of the shadier political aliances with the FM are glossed in order to depict the Andals as unstoppable, unified invaders. And of course, through their military prowess and conversion of the FM to the Seven, they were able to found the 7K.

Sounds pretty good, though in fact they were merely taking over and building on top of the FM's foundations. Particularly amusing is the way in which the Andals never really seemed to be a unified force in Dorne. The wiki describes it this way:

"One thousand years ago, Dorne was a coalition of Andal states and petty kingdoms, with no ruler strong enough to seize control of the entire region, until the Rhoynar migration". Similarly, the North wasn't ever fully conquered; instead, Andals intermarried. So it seems sensible that they'd be strongest at the center, while constantly striving to maintain the outskirts, and a picture of overall unification.

No. I'll try to clarify. The ravens are the ones that are used to transport messages between castles, and the ravens are the ones the Children/singers used as familiars, but whenever the word "crow" is used, it's associated with humans. Bloodraven is a three-eyed crow, and if the HBO tv version is canon then Jojen calls Bran a three-eyed crow, and the Night's Watch are called crows. If Bloodraven and Bran are able to slip inside a raven, why would they then be called a three-eyed crow? Why not a three-eyed raven? Or are crow and raven interchangeable?

I'm going to think about this one and come back to it in the crow thread. Three-Eyed-Crow has a nice 1-1-1 syllable rythm to it, whereas Three-Eyed-Raven has 1-1-2; could be that GRRM prefers the sound and the allusion to threes that the first sound pattern reflects. In English, it sounds older, too-- like the old Anglo-Saxon (often four letter, one syllable words) that remain as part of the foundation of the language.

In Old English, it's crawe, in imitation of the sound a crow makes, so you could be on to something with the difference and how 'crow' might be associated more with humans.

[Black Crow]

At this point I'm going to pull the plug on Heresy 100.

It has been great. Running this thread for so long has been hard work, not least in writing up and posting a new OP at just the right time each week, but it really has been worth it. Here on this thread we can fairly claim to know far more about the story than just about anywhere else on the board and if we disagree on interpreting that knowledge, so much the better. We're here to debate, discuss and argue. Over the last two years and more a lot of our ideas have evolved not just through information leaking out from various sources but through this often lively debate.

And it will continue, so I thank you all for participating so far and look forward to your continued participation - and friendship - in the new century, which opens with a quick and dirty dissertation by Professor Crow on the subject of... Crows.

[WierWood Wolf]

No. I'll try to clarify. The ravens are the ones that are used to transport messages between castles, and the ravens are the ones the Children/singers used as familiars, but whenever the word "crow" is used, it's associated with humans. Bloodraven is a three-eyed crow, and if the HBO tv version is canon then Jojen calls Bran a three-eyed crow, and the Night's Watch are called crows. If Bloodraven and Bran are able to slip inside a raven, why would they then be called a three-eyed crow? Why not a three-eyed raven? Or are crow and raven interchangeable?

Durran the first Storm King waged war against the storm gods, which doesn't sound like he worships him. He was in defiance of them.

According to histories and lores on the dvd's the Ironborn aren't afraid of the storm gods because their god is the Drowned God. It is the storm gods that bring the Ironborn to the shores and if they fall overboard they say the Drowned God must have wanted them.

Durran was from the Stormlands not the Sisters IIRC (I always want to repeat his name,and say his queen was Rio) sorry to use an 80's band reference B)