R + L = J v 74

[Ser Creighton]

Interesting. I can go along with your final thought, but that does not agree with Daenerys' present mindset. Her mindset is going to need to change dramatically to avoid animosity towards Jon.

Yes getting her head right would be rather important. But there appears to be a lot of time for that and a lot of distance. I just don't see a lot of conflict there, time is a huge factor for that as well. At the pace Martin chooses any major conflict between those two would take us to book 10. Just getting her out of Essos. I mean Tyrion just going from point a-b was a book and he didn't even get there. A couple more chapters of getting there probably.

But just looking at the characters, all of them, I expect plenty of ups and downs and deaths.

[Ser Creighton]

You know I think this is a really interesting continuation of the parallels you noted earlier. It would seem the two are tied together in the text, and by more than parallels in the direction of their arcs. There is complementary symbolism at play here, which strongly supports the conclusion you arrive at. I particularly love the shadow connections, because as you probably know, we've talked about those here, but never with the Dany one added in. Viewed as a trio, it's a remarkable textual connection, especially since the Jon passage also draws in the Doreah story.

As for where Dany is now, I think that a lot of people are going to being very surprised by what's in store for her next. I don't think she's going to remain as "in control" as we've seen her in the past and while I do agree with Mtn Lion that her mindset would need to change a lot, I actually see this happening as an inevitability for her. That's probably a discussion for another place though ;)

Glad you liked it. Yeah the shadow thing seems to be a big connection, I remember someone here wrote a theory on Mels vision with Jon, and the shadows with him. Until then I never made any connection.

Two interesting things I forgot to mention. Is that Bran has some part as well, remember when he saw the heart of winter, whatever that is. But the heart in the house of the undying, and the heart of winter would seem to have some symbolism as well.

The Other thing and it's weird, but Dany dreamed she was Rhaegar at the trident but on Drogon and it was her. But for a moment she was Rhaegar, and she thought this was how it was suppose to be. Well she also sees Jon as the blue rose. The roles are flipped but it's very symbolic. I am not sure what to make of it though. Any thoughts sense it is more this thread appropriate. Maybe it is suggesting something of the past and future, I am just not sure.

[Alia of the knife]

Glad you liked it. Yeah the shadow thing seems to be a big connection, I remember someone here wrote a theory on Mels vision with Jon, and the shadows with him. Until then I never made any connection.

Two interesting things I forgot to mention. Is that Bran has some part as well, remember when he saw the heart of winter, whatever that is. But the heart in the house of the undying, and the heart of winter would seem to have some symbolism as well.

The Other thing and it's weird, but Dany dreamed she was Rhaegar at the trident but on Drogon and it was her. But for a moment she was Rhaegar, and she thought this was how it was suppose to be. Well she also sees Jon as the blue rose. The roles are flipped but it's very symbolic. I am not sure what to make of it though. Any thoughts sense it is more this thread appropriate. Maybe it is suggesting something of the past and future, I am just not sure.

Great job Ser Creighton.

I think the primary function in the symbolism of the blue rose as a vision is to lead Dany to Jon.

And you are right, there are a lot of role reversals.

It was Lyanna as the Knight in shining armor, (or sort of shiny), who saved a Prince, (in terms of destiny), and now Dany as Rhaegar rides toward their destiny again, whatever that destiny may be, but Jon IS the blue rose.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Which place are we talking about? :P

[Ser Creighton]

Great job Ser Creighton.

I think the primary function in the symbolism of the blue rose as a vision is to lead Dany to Rhaegar.

And you are right, there are a lot of role reversals.

It was Lyanna as the Knight in shining armor, (or sort of shiny), who saved a Prince, (in terms of destiny), and now Dany as Rhaegar rides toward their destiny again, whatever that destiny may be, but Jon IS the blue rose.

You know that's a pretty good catch I had not thought of that, and yeah there are role reversals Not everything, but yeah that's one of them. Destiny of course seems evident. But also the two houses have something, Jon of course has his natural symbolism, but still mostly Stark to this point in the story and he takes after his mothers side. And Dany very much Targaryen, always mentioned as Being very much like Rhaegar, weather correct or not, it's the suggestion.

Interesting enough you know we all know Jon does not know about his parents. Dany never mentions her mother, but she does not really know her father does she? Or the truth about him. Jon thinks he knows his father also but not the truth about his father.

[Ser Creighton]

Which place are we talking about? :P

I'm not sure but if it's an island and it's warm and got crystal blue water, I am so fucking there. Make the snow go away. How the hell do those people in westeros do this for years on end.

By the way we were not talking behind your back, just about your shadow Ser Ghost.

[corbon]

I know that I have always felt that placing the crown in Lyanna's lap was very suggestive, and that it was not at all a normal thing to do. I mentioned it to him early during formulation. I like the crown idea, and have had similar thoughts on occasion.

Umm, I invite you to have a think about a Knight, with a laurel wreath on the tip of his lance, passing the wreath to the lady of his selection who is seated in a low stand...

[Alia of the knife]

Which place are we talking about? :P

THAT place. :)

[Alia of the knife]

I'm not sure but if it's an island and it's warm and got crystal blue water, I am so fucking there. Make the snow go away. How the hell do those people in westeros do this for years on end.

By the way we were not talking behind your back, just about your shadow Ser Ghost.

Nineteen degrees, and with wind warnings for the Bay Bridge, I was glad to be off today.

March will break your heart.

Oh well, on to "Vikings" and Ragnar.

[Natasi]

Yeah but it's kind of odd, and it's more an idea than a theory. I am going to skip the quotes to keep it short as most here no, the books well enough. The song is one of the culminating parts of the idea.

It really happens in D&E or starts there. We meet Dunk, Egg and Bloodraven. There are some character oddities relating to Rhaegars story. Egg is generally well liked by fans and for a good reason, he seems a rather good person.

At some point Bloodraven is sent to the wall not long after the great council. Egg takes the throne and sends Dunk, Aemon and Bloodraven to the wall among others. I don't think Bloodraven is forced but rather chooses to go, and he is at the wall long enough to become LC and we never really hear Aemon mention him even though they went together and served together. Now Bloodraven may be many things but he appears to be rather intelligent and we know he is powerful. At some point this dude becomes so into the whole impending Others thing that he became part of a tree. That's a rather huge and important lifestyle choice.

So the Wood witch comes to court with Jenny and I think it's important that she is not actually revealed as the Ghost of HH, this I think is a clue. You get tPtwP prophecy which of course is going to greatly effect Rhaegar. Now Egg who previously is not into forced marriages says Rhaegars parents have to hook up even though it's clearly not something he believes in doing to people. So it seems like Egg suddenly really wants Dragons. Now we know Egg believes in prophecies, but it seems a rather desperate move for dragons. Because that's really what it is about. This appears to effect him greatly as he even tries to wake them at Summerhall. But that is messed up because the Prince is suppose to wake the dragon not Egg. So Bloodraven at some point becomes concerned about the Others and Egg really wants Dragons. Though from what we know of him some of his actions are out of character.

Now not everyone believes in prophecies in the books, we have seen this and chances are not everyone believed the Woods Witch. But Egg did and I think going back to then not only do you get the Prince but the Others or an impending doom.

So the tragedy of Summerhall happens. Now this I think this not only effects Rhaegars future but young Aerys. I think he saw what happened at Summerhall and resented the prophecy and it became taboo to him and of course the court. Rhaegar is not told about tPtwP but actually it looks like he reads about the prophecy. Now I don't know if he happened to come across a prophecy or maybe a cat was sitting on it but he read about it. He is young but we don't know how young. Either way he wants a sword.

Young adult Rhaegar is listed as being rather Emo, but kid Rhaegar is bookish. Not the same thing, and is very smart. So at some point Rhaegar thinks he is the Prince and pursues a course of action.

Now being a very smart young boy and later young man, one thing occurs to me. I think Rhaegar is dealing with this Prince prophecy in secret, he is not making it known to his father. This will eventually create a sort rift between the two. Rhaegar being secretive will eventually create some mistrust wit hhis father and not being of sound mind may have caused some of their problems that have been mentioned.

Now being a smart young man, I think Rhaegar would want to talk to the person who actually made the prophecy. But only has a name Wood Witch and the knowledge that she is a prophet.

Tourney at Lannisport, we know Rhaegar is there and according to Cersei looks as if he had been wounded. I think he spoke to Maggie the Frog and that she gave him a prophecy that he was not the prince but that he would father the prince. He finds out she is not the Wood Witch, and that he is not the prince so he is sad that day.

Now we know he goes to Summerhall and does whatever it is he does and always comes back with a song. When he started this practice I do not know. Now weather Bloodraven is involved or Rhaegar has prophetic visions of his own I do not know. But I think it is possible and it's may be one of his motivations that kept him going with the prophecy.

I think at some point Rhaegar decided to remove his father, so the ToHH. I think while all that was being planned because Tourneys don't happen over night, Rhaegar hears about a Woods Witch in the Riverlands. I think he went to see her. Maybe more than once I am not sure. But I think it was a rather sad moment for both, but that he wrote a song for her, Jenny. She in turn I think gave him a prophecy about his death and perhaps about a she wolf or blue roses or a laughing tree. I don't know. I also think the prophecy of his death is the reason he stayed at the Tower so long or part of the reason.

The song itself goes full circle, she is the reason Rhaegar was born and the reason Jenny died at Summerhall or why she was there, and of course Rhaegars connection to her and Summerhall, it only seems right he would of written that Song for her. Later he performs it at HH, where it first goes public so to speak.

It's real just an idea, I can place him near the Ghost and Maggie and he was into prophecies so I just figure he would be interested in speaking to them. There are some text clues but not really enough support so it's an idea not a theory.

Your probably thinking all that for a song. Get it? Cause song has more than one meaning, I know I'm good. (Kidding) Oh boy all that and you only asked one little question about a song. Remember this is the short version.

One of the best posts I've read all year.

[theREALjonsnow]

Why am I misguided when I mention what you wrote? I suppose I am supposed to divine your intentions and not pay attention to what you wrote? I see no connection between GoHH and Lyanna. You say sad song, I say sad song, they need not be the same sad song. You need textual support that Rhaegar:

1. Knew the Woods Witch or Ghost of High Heart

The Woods Witch or Ghost of High Heart taught him a song (she likes to listen, I don't know that she knows any besides Jenny of Oldstones)

That Rhaegar would sing it at Harrenhal

That it is the sad song that made an impression on Lyanna

That that particular song influenced Rhaegar and Lyanna

ETA: Sarcasm font

That's extremely valid criticism, imo. The things you propose are little better than fan fiction (that is they are imaginative suppositions with no supporting text) And you did indeed use the term yourself. If that wasn't what you meant, perhaps you could let us know what you did mean?

And I'm part of the "we" We are the people who tend not to worry so much about things that cannot be known (ie they have no textual support) as it's a relatively fruitless pursuit that can only lead into assumptions and fan fic territory. When we do engage in speculation it's with reference to the text and we would never claim knowledge that cannot be known.

And this idea that the GoHH taught Rhaegar a song, or even knew him, is a massive assumption with not a shred of text to support it.

One of the best posts I've read all year.

don't let posters on this thread think you agree with this assumption that Rhaegar knew the Woods Witch/Ghost of High Heart, because it just makes no sense in regards to the text and shouldn't even be discussed really...

[Jon Icefyre]

Thanx, Lady G! I had the wiki reference but not the app with full text.

Bizarre being a very interesting euphemism lol

And Jon Icefyre, welcome back home (you and your sweet summer child ;)).

Thx man, feels good to be back! Although I must admit, I didn't think anyone would miss me lol, but it feels good to know the community still remembers me!

don't let posters on this thread think you agree with this assumption that Rhaegar knew the Woods Witch/Ghost of High Heart, because it just makes no sense in regards to the text and shouldn't even be discussed really...

Dude, no one is saying you're not allowed to speculate, but it's a given rule that if you're speculating you should at least try to show an ounce of humility about it. The issue isn't that you're speculating, the issue is that you've used terms like, "you know" as if your speculation is a proven fact, when in reality there's not really any textual evidence to support it whatsoever, so when you argue with ppl and you say things like, "you know Rhaegar knew and spoke with the Wood Witch about TPTWP propehcy" even though literally nothing in the text says this took place, don't be surprised if ppl on here call bullshit! And yes, I'm including the misplaced quotes you provided that were all obviously about subjects not related to Rhaegar meeting with the Wood Witch.....Bottomline is, if you want to speculate, awesome, go ahead no one is saying you shouldn't, but please stop acting like the ideas you've made up in your head that aren't supported by the text, deserve as much validity as theories actually supported by the text....