R + L = J v 74

[Ser Creighton]

Well, isn't the speculation of Rhaegar and Lyannas relationship, and how they came to be a big factor in R+L=J?

Yeah but it's kind of odd, and it's more an idea than a theory. I am going to skip the quotes to keep it short as most here no, the books well enough. The song is one of the culminating parts of the idea.

It really happens in D&E or starts there. We meet Dunk, Egg and Bloodraven. There are some character oddities relating to Rhaegars story. Egg is generally well liked by fans and for a good reason, he seems a rather good person.

At some point Bloodraven is sent to the wall not long after the great council. Egg takes the throne and sends Dunk, Aemon and Bloodraven to the wall among others. I don't think Bloodraven is forced but rather chooses to go, and he is at the wall long enough to become LC and we never really hear Aemon mention him even though they went together and served together. Now Bloodraven may be many things but he appears to be rather intelligent and we know he is powerful. At some point this dude becomes so into the whole impending Others thing that he became part of a tree. That's a rather huge and important lifestyle choice.

So the Wood witch comes to court with Jenny and I think it's important that she is not actually revealed as the Ghost of HH, this I think is a clue. You get tPtwP prophecy which of course is going to greatly effect Rhaegar. Now Egg who previously is not into forced marriages says Rhaegars parents have to hook up even though it's clearly not something he believes in doing to people. So it seems like Egg suddenly really wants Dragons. Now we know Egg believes in prophecies, but it seems a rather desperate move for dragons. Because that's really what it is about. This appears to effect him greatly as he even tries to wake them at Summerhall. But that is messed up because the Prince is suppose to wake the dragon not Egg. So Bloodraven at some point becomes concerned about the Others and Egg really wants Dragons. Though from what we know of him some of his actions are out of character.

Now not everyone believes in prophecies in the books, we have seen this and chances are not everyone believed the Woods Witch. But Egg did and I think going back to then not only do you get the Prince but the Others or an impending doom.

So the tragedy of Summerhall happens. Now this I think this not only effects Rhaegars future but young Aerys. I think he saw what happened at Summerhall and resented the prophecy and it became taboo to him and of course the court. Rhaegar is not told about tPtwP but actually it looks like he reads about the prophecy. Now I don't know if he happened to come across a prophecy or maybe a cat was sitting on it but he read about it. He is young but we don't know how young. Either way he wants a sword.

Young adult Rhaegar is listed as being rather Emo, but kid Rhaegar is bookish. Not the same thing, and is very smart. So at some point Rhaegar thinks he is the Prince and pursues a course of action.

Now being a very smart young boy and later young man, one thing occurs to me. I think Rhaegar is dealing with this Prince prophecy in secret, he is not making it known to his father. This will eventually create a sort rift between the two. Rhaegar being secretive will eventually create some mistrust wit hhis father and not being of sound mind may have caused some of their problems that have been mentioned.

Now being a smart young man, I think Rhaegar would want to talk to the person who actually made the prophecy. But only has a name Wood Witch and the knowledge that she is a prophet.

Tourney at Lannisport, we know Rhaegar is there and according to Cersei looks as if he had been wounded. I think he spoke to Maggie the Frog and that she gave him a prophecy that he was not the prince but that he would father the prince. He finds out she is not the Wood Witch, and that he is not the prince so he is sad that day.

Now we know he goes to Summerhall and does whatever it is he does and always comes back with a song. When he started this practice I do not know. Now weather Bloodraven is involved or Rhaegar has prophetic visions of his own I do not know. But I think it is possible and it's may be one of his motivations that kept him going with the prophecy.

I think at some point Rhaegar decided to remove his father, so the ToHH. I think while all that was being planned because Tourneys don't happen over night, Rhaegar hears about a Woods Witch in the Riverlands. I think he went to see her. Maybe more than once I am not sure. But I think it was a rather sad moment for both, but that he wrote a song for her, Jenny. She in turn I think gave him a prophecy about his death and perhaps about a she wolf or blue roses or a laughing tree. I don't know. I also think the prophecy of his death is the reason he stayed at the Tower so long or part of the reason.

The song itself goes full circle, she is the reason Rhaegar was born and the reason Jenny died at Summerhall or why she was there, and of course Rhaegars connection to her and Summerhall, it only seems right he would of written that Song for her. Later he performs it at HH, where it first goes public so to speak.

It's real just an idea, I can place him near the Ghost and Maggie and he was into prophecies so I just figure he would be interested in speaking to them. There are some text clues but not really enough support so it's an idea not a theory.

Your probably thinking all that for a song. Get it? Cause song has more than one meaning, I know I'm good. (Kidding) Oh boy all that and you only asked one little question about a song. Remember this is the short version.

[Ghost's Shadow]

She was just being crabby .... ( sorry, sometime I just can't help it. And NO responses with Craster in it :P )

I agree. The Bran part might have been foreshadowing (though, yes, not eating will get you to go thin, you're eating your own muscles), but to say that when Cat opened up her mouth to Jon it needs to be whitewashed into a foreshadowing into her becoming Lady Stoneheart... Jesus.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I agree. The Bran part might have been foreshadowing (though, yes, not eating will get you to go thin, you're eating your own muscles), but to say that when Cat opened up her mouth to Jon it needs to be whitewashed into a foreshadowing into her becoming Lady Stoneheart... Jesus.

The "it should have been you part" could also have been foreshadowing. Shortly after, someone tries to kill Bran by stabbing him, but he fails.

Two years later, people try to kill Jon by stabbing him, and chances are they succeeded.

It should have been Jon (according to Cat). And eventually, it happened to Jon. Though not exactly the thing Catelyn was referring to, it could work...

[Ghost's Shadow]

But what isn't foreshadowed, right?

[The hairy bear]

But Catelyn's thought process about the possible mother should be taken into account as well. Catelyn considers Ashara Dayne, who is from the south. The earliest Ashara and Ned could have conceived was at the Tourney at Harrenhal, two years before, which would leave Jon more than a year older than he actually is. Which oppertunity did they have afterwards? Well, only the time Ned spend in the south. Catelyn might not have known where Ashara was exactly, during the war (we don't know either :P ) but thinking that Ashara was more north than KL would be strange, IMO. Yet, Catelyn seems to consider Ashara as an actual possibility, even though when Ned got in the vicinity of KL, there was not enough time for a pregnancy.

(...)

Even Catelyn would grasp the notion that after leaving the Eyrie to return North (something that went incredibly slow, and thus took a few months), Ned could only have fathered a child after marrying her (or he would have had to have fathered Jon on a campfollower from the north, but Cat never seems to think about that). And fathering a child on a woman before Jon Arryn raised his banners, would leave Jon about 1,5 years old upon arriving at Winterfell. So if Cat believes that Ned could only have fathered a child in the south after marrying her, than the possibility of Jon being older would most likely not even occur to her, especially when the two children are so close in age and the age difference would thus not be visible.

Surely Catelyn thought about all this. Probably to the point of obsessing herself in the matter.

What we should take into account is that Catelyn is sure that Ned loves Jon's mother (and she is right, of course). Treating Jon as his other trueborn children demonstrates that Ned loved the mother dearly. If Ned had fathered a bastard with a camp follower, or someone he had just met, he wouldn't feel obligated to personally rise the son.

So Catelyn knows that Ned loved the mother. And she knows that Ned loved Ashara. Suspecting her, even if her whereabouts do not match exactly. That said, here goes my theory: we know that Ashara was Elia's handmaiden. She could have left KL close to the sack, making her close enough to Eddard to give credence to Cat's suspicions. If you want to take the theory a step further, there's the fact that the Mad King held Elia Martell as hostage to secure the support of the Dornish. Wouldn't it make sense to held Ashara Dayne too? Of course, she wouldn't have been killed during the sack because she remained hidden (instead of Elia, who tried to protect her son and... wasn't supposed to get killed anyway). That way, Eddard and Ashara would have plenty of time to conceive Jon. (they could have even done part of the journey south together).

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah but it's kind of odd, and it's more an idea than a theory. I am going to skip the quotes to keep it short as most here no, the books well enough. The song is one of the culminating parts of the idea.

It really happens in D&E or starts there. We meet Dunk, Egg and Bloodraven. There are some character oddities relating to Rhaegars story. Egg is generally well liked by fans and for a good reason, he seems a rather good person.

At some point Bloodraven is sent to the wall not long after the great council. Egg takes the throne and sends Dunk, Aemon and Bloodraven to the wall among others. I don't think Bloodraven is forced but rather chooses to go, and he is at the wall long enough to become LC and we never really hear Aemon mention him even though they went together and served together. Now Bloodraven may be many things but he appears to be rather intelligent and we know he is powerful. At some point this dude becomes so into the whole impending Others thing that he became part of a tree. That's a rather huge and important lifestyle choice.

So the Wood witch comes to court with Jenny and I think it's important that she is not actually revealed as the Ghost of HH, this I think is a clue. You get tPtwP prophecy which of course is going to greatly effect Rhaegar. Now Egg who previously is not into forced marriages says Rhaegars parents have to hook up even though it's clearly not something he believes in doing to people. So it seems like Egg suddenly really wants Dragons. Now we know Egg believes in prophecies, but it seems a rather desperate move for dragons. Because that's really what it is about. This appears to effect him greatly as he even tries to wake them at Summerhall. But that is messed up because the Prince is suppose to wake the dragon not Egg. So Bloodraven at some point becomes concerned about the Others and Egg really wants Dragons. Though from what we know of him some of his actions are out of character.

Now not everyone believes in prophecies in the books, we have seen this and chances are not everyone believed the Woods Witch. But Egg did and I think going back to then not only do you get the Prince but the Others or an impending doom.

So the tragedy of Summerhall happens. Now this I think this not only effects Rhaegars future but young Aerys. I think he saw what happened at Summerhall and resented the prophecy and it became taboo to him and of course the court. Rhaegar is not told about tPtwP but actually it looks like he reads about the prophecy. Now I don't know if he happened to come across a prophecy or maybe a cat was sitting on it but he read about it. He is young but we don't know how young. Either way he wants a sword.

Young adult Rhaegar is listed as being rather Emo, but kid Rhaegar is bookish. Not the same thing, and is very smart. So at some point Rhaegar thinks he is the Prince and pursues a course of action.

Now being a very smart young boy and later young man, one thing occurs to me. I think Rhaegar is dealing with this Prince prophecy in secret, he is not making it known to his father. This will eventually create a sort rift between the two. Rhaegar being secretive will eventually create some mistrust wit hhis father and not being of sound mind may have caused some of their problems that have been mentioned.

Now being a smart young man, I think Rhaegar would want to talk to the person who actually made the prophecy. But only has a name Wood Witch and the knowledge that she is a prophet.

Tourney at Lannisport, we know Rhaegar is there and according to Cersei looks as if he had been wounded. I think he spoke to Maggie the Frog and that she gave him a prophecy that he was not the prince but that he would father the prince. He finds out she is not the Wood Witch, and that he is not the prince so he is sad that day.

Now we know he goes to Summerhall and does whatever it is he does and always comes back with a song. When he started this practice I do not know. Now weather Bloodraven is involved or Rhaegar has prophetic visions of his own I do not know. But I think it is possible and it's may be one of his motivations that kept him going with the prophecy.

I think at some point Rhaegar decided to remove his father, so the ToHH. I think while all that was being planned because Tourneys don't happen over night, Rhaegar hears about a Woods Witch in the Riverlands. I think he went to see her. Maybe more than once I am not sure. But I think it was a rather sad moment for both, but that he wrote a song for her, Jenny. She in turn I think gave him a prophecy about his death and perhaps about a she wolf or blue roses or a laughing tree. I don't know. I also think the prophecy of his death is the reason he stayed at the Tower so long or part of the reason.

The song itself goes full circle, she is the reason Rhaegar was born and the reason Jenny died at Summerhall or why she was there, and of course Rhaegars connection to her and Summerhall, it only seems right he would of written that Song for her. Later he performs it at HH, where it first goes public so to speak.

It's real just an idea, I can place him near the Ghost and Maggie and he was into prophecies so I just figure he would be interested in speaking to them. There are some text clues but not really enough support so it's an idea not a theory.

Your probably thinking all that for a song. Get it? Cause song has more than one meaning, I know I'm good. (Kidding) Oh boy all that and you only asked one little question about a song. Remember this is the short version.

Thats pretty good.

In terms of his song, I had been thinking more a long the lines of its style as a legend that would have been told to him, perhaps by Rhaella.

But, what would have made Lyanna "sniffle?"

If what you are theorizing or speculating is true, then it ties into the possibility the song was meant to be for her. After her dust-up with the squires, which would have made the rounds of the camp by onlookers, she may have already come to his attention.

If Rhaegar suspected he knew at least what direction to start looking, (whether it was Lyanna, Howland, or her brothers), when he was tasked by his father to find the mysterious Knight, finding that it was Lyanna and falling in love with her would be confirmation that Lyanna would play a part in the prophesy and his destiny; a prophesy of blue roses and a northern knight that Aerys had cause to fear after all, because was that not also a part of Aerys visions?

HIs then placing the crown in her lap plays into the theory, (and I apologize that I don't remember who posited this theory), of the crown symbolizing Jon bieng placed into her womb.

And of course, that crown of blue roses may also be a nod to Jons legitimate status.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Surely Catelyn thought about all this. Probably to the point of obsessing herself in the matter.

What we should take into account is that Catelyn is sure that Ned loves Jon's mother (and she is right, of course). Treating Jon as his other trueborn children demonstrates that Ned loved the mother dearly. If Ned had fathered a bastard with a camp follower, or someone he had just met, he wouldn't feel obligated to personally rise the son.

So Catelyn knows that Ned loved the mother. And she knows that Ned loved Ashara. Suspecting her, even if her whereabouts do not match exactly. That said, here goes my theory: we know that Ashara was Elia's handmaiden. She could have left KL close to the sack, making her close enough to Eddard to give credence to Cat's suspicions. If you want to take the theory a step further, there's the fact that the Mad King held Elia Martell as hostage to secure the support of the Dornish. Wouldn't it make sense to held Ashara Dayne too? Of course, she wouldn't have been killed during the sack because she remained hidden (instead of Elia, who tried to protect her son and... wasn't supposed to get killed anyway). That way, Eddard and Ashara would have plenty of time to conceive Jon. (they could have even done part of the journey south together).

How could Ashara have had time enough for a 9 month pregnancy, in your theory? from the Sack until Cat's arrival at Winterfell? But by then, Robb is already several months old, and Jon would be as well (wether he is older or younger). Above all, Ashara has been dead for a few months by then.

[Dagda]

But even with Cats Sept., one gets the feeling as she looks at the Weirwoods that though she has tried, she has failed, even with Sansa, and as far as the Targaryens and the Seven go, I think for them it's more a matter of accomodating the masses, though to be sure, there are those like Queen Naerys who were devout.

.

Very true. Religion is a control mechanism, and if there had been a Targ in the Stark tree, I would think that a sept would be a great way for her to stake her dominate family position in the 7 kingdoms.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

How could Ashara have had time enough for a 9 month pregnancy, in your theory? from the Sack until Cat's arrival at Winterfell? But by then, Robb is already several months old, and Jon would be as well (wether he is older or younger). Above all, Ashara has been dead for a few months by then.

Think Eddard fathers a child on Cat, leaves, meets Ashara, fathers a child on her, then Ashara's child will be born some 7 weeks or so after Robb, at a time roughly when Ned is on his way back North or just starting to go North.

I don't buy it, but it is still possible.

[Alia of the knife]

Very true. Religion is a control mechanism, and if there had been a Targ in the Stark tree, I would think that a sept would be a great way for her to stake her dominate family position in the 7 kingdoms.

Or, she might have gotten better results from the old gods.

Neither the old gods, or the Seven were the Targaryens gods, so one was likely good as the other especially if in this world, there is no penalty for NOT worshiping the Seven- at this point, or the North would have already been brought to religious heel.

There is a godswood at the Red Keep and even Sansa keeps faith with both the seven and the old gods.

[MtnLion]

HIs then placing the crown in her lap plays into the theory, (and I apologize that I don't remember who posited this theory), of the crown symbolizing Jon bieng placed into her womb.

And of course, that crown of blue roses may also be a nod to Jons legitimate status.

I have had similar thoughts. Jon Stargaryen created the Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone thread. I know that I have always felt that placing the crown in Lyanna's lap was very suggestive, and that it was not at all a normal thing to do. I mentioned it to him early during formulation. I like the crown idea, and have had similar thoughts on occasion.

[MtnLion]

Very true. Religion is a control mechanism, and if there had been a Targ in the Stark tree, I would think that a sept would be a great way for her to stake her dominate family position in the 7 kingdoms.

I always thought of the Targaryens as having a different religion than the Andals . . . The First Men were tree huggers (had to do it). I think that there is a passage than mentions that the Targaryens merely tolerated the Septs/Septon/Seven.

[Ser Creighton]

I think those are both very interesting observations. And I'd be interested in whatever else you've got. A lot of people would rather look at evidence and parallels from the text, rather than endless stubborn posturing about the size of babies. :p

C'mon, tell us your reason! Cracked pots? Have you read the last two threads? The song R sang to L is highly relevant and if you've got something to support it, why not share?

Ok well it's long and umm well, it's just this. Probably should be it's own board theory, but I don't care. It's on the parallels not the song.

This is an odd little connection or two I found with Dany and Jon and it starts in thrones. You can make your own conclusions from the text. It's starts with Ned and something he says to Arya in a rather sweet moment. I wasn't looking for any connections, it just sort of happened.

Thrones 22.

You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you This may have nothing to do with any of it, but there is a theme there.

This is where it really starts. Just notice how close together Martin wrote this in these two chapters.

Thrones 23. Dany, now we all know this passage, but it's about connections.

A trader from Qarth once told me that dragons came from the moon,

The moon?

He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi, the Lysene girl said. Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.

Now of course you have a metaphor here for how Dany woke the dragons. Dany being the Moon and Drogo being the sun. But it's moon in reference to Dany which is important. That symbolism is tied to her in the books.

You are foolish strawhead slave, Irri said. Moon is no egg. Moon is god, woman wife of sun. It is known.

Now I know this has been discussed before about Dany being symbolic of the moon. But please continue I am getting there.

While Doreah brushed her hair until it shone like spun silver, she thought about the moon, and eggs, and dragons.

Now remember there are dragons and there are dragons, literal and figurative. Something to consider about both the sun and the moon is that they give off light. Not really getting into a lightbringer thing, but they give off light and create shadows among other things.

Kings 48. Yes I am posting the blue rose, but for a reason, I hope you just trust me a little further it's getting to the connection.

A long stone table filled this room. Above it floated a human heart, swollen and blue with corruption, yet still alive. It beat, a deep ponderous throb of sound, and each pulse sent out a wash of indigo light. The figures around the table were no more than blue shadows.

But blue isn't just applied to shade of the evening. The rose, the Others, the blue eyes the blue stars. This heart has been corrupted something happened to it but it is alive. It's also giving off light, blue light but light non the less. I don't think this is Jon's heart or anything, but rather an idea, that Martin has placed there.

There was no sound but the slow, deep beat of the rotting heart.

Now I have blue and rotting something also associated with the Wights. But the heart is still alive. Don't think I am saying or trying to point out Jon is dead, I am not, this is going someplace, with a living Jon. But I want you to think about his current situation. Remember the heart is alive.

mother of dragons came a voice, part whisper and part moan dragons dragons dragons other voices echoed in the gloom. Some were male and some female. One spoke with the timbre of a child.

Well 3 dragons here, voices male and female, one is a child though. It's specific to point that out. Blue, rotting and hard and death continue through the scene.

The floating heart pulsed from dimness to darkness

The heart is fading but not yet dead. Remember Brans Vision?

"Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him ..."

Not dead but warmth fading from him.

the shape of shadows morrows not yet made drink from the cup of ice drink from the cup of fire

mother of dragons child of three

Three? She did not understand.

three heads has the dragon

Remember the Mother dragons, and the symbolism of the moon and Dany? Dany being the mother of dragons, literal dragons, but what about the figurative ones? Symbolic mother not giving actual birth here.

Rhaegar is shown to Dany multiple times at the house of the Undying "The dragon has 3 heads of course, but also his death.

a blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. mother of dragons, bride of fire

Mother of dragons, sweetness. Keep this in mind.

Mother! they cried. Mother, mother! They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life,

The fire of life. I know it took awhile but I needed to get to that. The fire of life. The rest of the scene is Drogon wrecking the Undying but cold is applied to them, during that, dead, cold, rotting and blue. Cold dead rotting and blue is a very Wight way of being. Just saying, that Dany is dealing with the Cold, dead, blue, rotting Undying and Jon has his Wights. Dany burned them and Jon burned the Wight in Mormonts room.

Ok now for the connection, sorry it took so long.

Dance 31 Mel.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain.

You all know this passage like the back of your hands. "appearing and disappearing again, shadow half scene behind a fluttering curtain." But what about this next one? It's a bit older, and the scene has Dany thinking about a kiss and well her dream man.

Swords 23. Dany

Lying abed in her narrow bunk, she found herself wondering how it would be to have a man squeezed in beside her in place of her handmaid, and the thought was more exciting than it should have been. Sometimes she would close her eyes and dream of him, but it was never Jorah Mormont she dreamed of; her lover was always younger and more comely, though his face remained a shifting shadow.

His face remained a shifting shadow.

Dance Ch 28 Jon.

Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.

The moon has kissed him and created a giant.

Now we all know Jon's current condition, and Dany is no place to be seen. But the sweet selling rose the shifting shadows, the moon, the mother who wakes dragons, and the fire of life, may be tied to Jon. I don't know. It may be nothing, but the rational part of my brain has a hard time getting around some of the connections. Freemen, Free folk and so forth, fire and ice, Rhaegar, Ghost and Selmy, the Mormonts, the blue rose. Many hate Dany and see her as a threat to Jon. I don't think that is the message Martin is sending. The sun and the moon, I think she is suppose to wake the Dragon, not by beating on him, but the fire of life.

I am not sure what is in Jon's future, but I think Dany is part of it and I don't think it's a battle for a throne.

[Alia of the knife]

I have had similar thoughts. Jon Stargaryen created the Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone thread. I know that I have always felt that placing the crown in Lyanna's lap was very suggestive, and that it was not at all a normal thing to do. I mentioned it to him early during formulation. I like the crown idea, and have had similar thoughts on occasion.

Thanks for the link. :bowdown:

I thought it was him, but I couldn't remember. :blushing:

[Ygrain]

I have had similar thoughts. Jon Stargaryen created the Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone thread. I know that I have always felt that placing the crown in Lyanna's lap was very suggestive, and that it was not at all a normal thing to do. I mentioned it to him early during formulation. I like the crown idea, and have had similar thoughts on occasion.

The same here, especially as we know what followed.

[MtnLion]

<snip>

I am not sure what is in Jon's future, but I think Dany is part of it and I don't think it's a battle for a throne.

Interesting. I can go along with your final thought, but that does not agree with Daenerys' present mindset. Her mindset is going to need to change dramatically to avoid animosity towards Jon.

[Alia of the knife]

And (face-slap), is there an icon for this?

This piece that I took from Jon Stargaryen fabulous analysis, an Eddard chapter, really brings home the fact that Ned knew that Lyanna loved Rhaegar.

Of course, Ned thinks that Cersei had loved Robert, and maybe initially she did, but lately she has been pining for Rhaegar, so both of them are pining for people they never had.

From Eddard XII:

Quote

Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna. “
Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. “I do not know which of you I pity most.”

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

*snip

You know I think this is a really interesting continuation of the parallels you noted earlier. It would seem the two are tied together in the text, and by more than parallels in the direction of their arcs. There is complementary symbolism at play here, which strongly supports the conclusion you arrive at. I particularly love the shadow connections, because as you probably know, we've talked about those here, but never with the Dany one added in. Viewed as a trio, it's a remarkable textual connection, especially since the Jon passage also draws in the Doreah story.

As for where Dany is now, I think that a lot of people are going to being very surprised by what's in store for her next. I don't think she's going to remain as "in control" as we've seen her in the past and while I do agree with Mtn Lion that her mindset would need to change a lot, I actually see this happening as an inevitability for her. That's probably a discussion for another place though ;)

[Alia of the knife]

You know I think this is a really interesting continuation of the parallels you noted earlier. It would seem the two are tied together in the text, and by more than parallels in the direction of their arcs. There is complementary symbolism at play here, which strongly supports the conclusion you arrive at. I particularly love the shadow connections, because as you probably know, we've talked about those here, but never with the Dany one added in. Viewed as a trio, it's a remarkable textual connection, especially since the Jon passage also draws in the Doreah story.

As for where Dany is now, I think that a lot of people are going to being very surprised by what's in store for her next. I don't think she's going to remain as "in control" as we've seen her in the past and while I do agree with Mtn Lion that her mindset would need to change a lot, I actually see this happening as an inevitability for her. That's probably a discussion for another place though ;)

Agreed, and can we go to that place? :)

[Lyse Stark]

You know I think this is a really interesting continuation of the parallels you noted earlier. It would seem the two are tied together in the text, and by more than parallels in the direction of their arcs. There is complementary symbolism at play here, which strongly supports the conclusion you arrive at. I particularly love the shadow connections, because as you probably know, we've talked about those here, but never with the Dany one added in. Viewed as a trio, it's a remarkable textual connection, especially since the Jon passage also draws in the Doreah story.

As for where Dany is now, I think that a lot of people are going to being very surprised by what's in store for her next. I don't think she's going to remain as "in control" as we've seen her in the past and while I do agree with Mtn Lion that her mindset would need to change a lot, I actually see this happening as an inevitability for her. That's probably a discussion for another place though ;)

Exactly. She need to realize that she's not the only surviving dragon and that she was never the rightful heir. Her entitlement and her anger may cost her many things, including the support of the smallfolk. And the DotD 2.0 isn't going to be a nice affair. It will reaffirm in many people's eyes that they don't want another Targaryen to rule, especially because the memory of the Mad King is so fresh in many people's minds.

Daenerys is on a dark path, and the Mereen arc is the groundwork that will kick it off. I believe that GRRM is using her to show how war can make beasts out of men.