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Kat

R + L = J v 74

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PLEASE REPORT THE THREAD ONCE IT REACHES 400 POSTS. THANK YOU.

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories


Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?
Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?
Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty.
For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?
The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious.
Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?
Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)


"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v 60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v 61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v 62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v 63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v 64" (thread sixty four)

"R+L=J v 65" (thread sixty five)

R+L=J v 66 (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v 67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v 68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v 69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v 70" (thread seventy)
"R+L=J v 71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v 72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v 73" (thread seventy-three)

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Wow, this was superfast :-)


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I saw thread 73 was unpinned but not locked and for a second thought we were punished for something. :eek:

For the thread was dark and full of (t)errors.

Does anyone wish to further discuss Arthur Dayne? I can repost the quotes.

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For the thread was dark and full of (t)errors.

Does anyone wish to further discuss Arthur Dayne? I can repost the quotes.

Terrors too, lol. And it's still unlocked... shhhh! ;)

Sure Arthur Dayne sounds a good start!

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Mod question: Dealing with this thread (unpinning, locking, reposting, etc.) makes my browser run incredibly slow, and I'm wondering if it has to do with the wall of links we always include. I'm wondering if people who frequent this thread notice it takes much longer to load than other threads here, or if it's just my browser?


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IR MTNLN


the old thread got locked....



I asked about the redundancy


They were kingsguard -check


kingsguard swears a vow-check


Ser Gerald explained, we swore a vow



Was the LC explaining that the KG swears a vow to guard the king, obey his orders, and protect his secrets?


If so he was explaining common knowledge.



We swore a vow is either explaining common knowledge if the vow was to the KG or if it was a different vow was explaining their absence from the Trident plus KL and their presence at the ToJ



We know that the LC was ordered by the king to return Rhaegar to KL.



Say


Rhaegar was concerned with the safety of the pregnant Lyanna


Say


LC insisted


Say


Rhaegar agreed to go only if the 3 KG swore a vow to guard the tower until he returned.


(We have already agreed that the LC will not obey Rhaegar's commands if they conflict with his duty or orders from the king.)


Say


LC accepts and the 3 KG swear to defend the ToJ until he returns.


(The LC and the other 2 obeyed the order from the King by swearing the vow)



Their presence still shows the importance of Lyanna and the baby to Rhaegar.



The case for a Legitimate Jon is pretty strong and the KG there does help it quite a bit, Mixing and matching from the LC and Jamie and Barriston and the KG vows does not help it, Overstating and claiming it to be the only explaination does not help either.



3 KG at the tower of Joy proves that there was something very important to Rhaegar there.


add in the remaining parts to the Jon is legitimate and it is a strong theory.


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Terrors too, lol. And it's still unlocked... shhhh! ;)

Sure Arthur Dayne sounds a good start!

Alright... :-)

I agree.

Wait, is it ToJ-related Arthur Dayne? :leaving:

Er... sorry. Get the ointment ready :leaving:

Except being consistently considered to be the very embodiment of an ideal knight, there is one more feature repeatedly connected with Arthur Dayne: sadness.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips.

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

In both situations, the sadness is connected with the vows (as i tis the reason why the KG at ToJ act the way they do). I think that it indicates that Dayne was forced by his vows into something he very much didn't want to do but he was trapped in the concept of honour that didn't allow him a way out. What I find interesting is that the second quote is Jaime's PoV (his dream on the weirwood) and I wonder what he might know about the source of Arthur's sadness.

Furthermore, Arthur's sadness is reflected in Ned's own attitude to the ToJ fight:

He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. “No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”

“Was there one who was best of all?”

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

I believe that Ned's respect and sadness for Dayne stems from the fact that they were both men of honour, acting by the same codes, which makes the inevitable fight at ToJ even more tragic.

Furthermore, if Dayne is the finest knight that ever lived and a shining example to the world in Ned’s eyes, it can mean only one thing: he was indeed true to his KG vows till the end. Ned, whose own honour wavered only for love, would never accept any excuses why the KG weren’t with Viserys if he was the king.

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Mod question: Dealing with this thread (unpinning, locking, reposting, etc.) makes my browser run incredibly slow, and I'm wondering if it has to do with the wall of links we always include. I'm wondering if people who frequent this thread notice it takes much longer to load than other threads here, or if it's just my browser?

Loads at normal speed for me. On a slightly related note, I wonder if you could add spoiler tags around the wall of links? It would make scrolling down page one easier :)

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Mod question: Dealing with this thread (unpinning, locking, reposting, etc.) makes my browser run incredibly slow, and I'm wondering if it has to do with the wall of links we always include. I'm wondering if people who frequent this thread notice it takes much longer to load than other threads here, or if it's just my browser?

I sometimes have the problem with the forums in general, but never noticed anything specific with this thread.

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Ygrain, that is great stuff digging up the sadness aspect to Arthur Dayne.




I believe that Ned's respect and sadness for Dayne stems from the fact that they were both men of honour, acting by the same codes, which makes the inevitable fight at ToJ even more tragic.





I wonder though if it is meant to be part of Dayne or rather the bitterness of being honour-bound to do things that seem wrong to the heart.





Furthermore, if Dayne is the finest knight that ever lived and a shining example to the world in Ned’s eyes, it can mean only one thing: he was indeed true to his KG vows till the end. Ned, whose own honour wavered only for love, would never accept any excuses why the KG weren’t with Viserys if he was the king.





Oh my. This. :)


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Ygrain, that is great stuff digging up the sadness aspect to Arthur Dayne.

I wonder though if it is meant to be part of Dayne or rather the bitterness of being honour-bound to do things that seem wrong to the heart.

Oh my. This. :)

We could go with the obvious he was KG that had failed in his first duty to 2 kings, lost his best friend, and was about to fight a battle that was lost despite its outcome.

all of those are pretty sad

Then there is the Howland Ashara conjecture meaning he was about to fight his brother in law and father to his niece Meera. That would be pretty sad too. It would also help explain how Howland saved Ned from Arthur (without net, poisoed spear, or swamp magic,)

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Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread.

Thank you :)

I believe that Ned's respect and sadness for Dayne stems from the fact that they were both men of honour, acting by the same codes, which makes the inevitable fight at ToJ even more tragic.

Furthermore, if Dayne is the finest knight that ever lived and a shining example to the world in Ned’s eyes, it can mean only one thing: he was indeed true to his KG vows till the end. Ned, whose own honour wavered only for love, would never accept any excuses why the KG weren’t with Viserys if he was the king.

This puts me in mind of Ned's utter disdain for Jaime Lannister, who forswore his vows when he killed Aerys. Nothing would excuse that in Ned's mind.

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Ygrain, that is great stuff digging up the sadness aspect to Arthur Dayne.

I wonder though if it is meant to be part of Dayne or rather the bitterness of being honour-bound to do things that seem wrong to the heart.

Oh my. This. :)

Thank you. Though I suspect that this has been picked before.

I'm glad that GRRM responded to the questions about Arthur Dayne "keep reading", because the man is sure as enigmatic as Rhaegar himself - I guess it is no coincidence that those two were pals :-)

I think - but here goes only my personal opinion, I cannot base it on anything in the text - that unlike Hightower, who was not in Rhaegar's close circle, Dayne did judge the king, and probably wished he hadn't taken the vows. Hence, his support of Rhaegar did not stem only from their friendship but also from the fact that Rhaegar would be a king worthy of his service.

If I may further elaborate on my crackpots: I wonder if Ned's sadness and silence over Arthur's death stems merely from grieving the death of a worthy opponent, or if there might be an element of e.g. guilt (depending on if Howland's intervention might be perceived as not honourable). Yet another aspect might be the manner of Arthur's death - e.g. if there was a moment when the fight was clearly lost for him yet he refused to stand down and save his life. That would add another layer to Ned's retreat to godswood each time he executed someone - he would be haunted by the first time he had done something like that.

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Loads at normal speed for me. On a slightly related note, I wonder if you could add spoiler tags around the wall of links? It would make scrolling down page one easier :)

I anticipated this solution already and did it right before you asked, although it doesn't seem to be helping matters. I suspect ASOIAF General is accumulating too many threads and needs to have some archived, since the slowness is not happening in other parts of the board. Thanks!

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This puts me in mind of Ned's utter disdain for Jaime Lannister, who forswore his vows when he killed Aerys. Nothing would excuse that in Ned's mind.

Yeah, the contrast with Jaime immediately comes into mind as Ned thinks that Aerys had to be killed but that it shouldn't have been by Jaime's hand.

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Did anybody ever notice that Ned never said he or Howland killed Arthur Dayne.


I could give quite a few examples of Ned telling the exact truth to mislead people. That would kind of give some context but it is hardly the point.


Ned says Arthur would have killed him were it not for Howland.


He also does not say that all were killed, he says only two survived to ride away.



I am not saying Arthur Dayne is alive and well. I am simply saying that he is never reported as killed or dead. It is suggested by Ned. However Ned's answering Wylla to Robert suggested that Wylla was Jon's mother.

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