The Essosi peoples' skin color and racism

[aryagonnakill#2]

There is a big difference between racism and everything in a story not being perfectly consistent to reality. Anyone who thinks this is the former is being blinded by their emotions that have arisen from other situations in their lives, and by claiming this is racism they take away from the legitimacy of a real claim of racism. It is a similar situation to when people criticize Obama for something he has nothing to do with, such as blaming him for not making the traffic lights in your town timed properly so that you only have to stop once on a road(yes, they really blamed Obama for this) taking away from a real argument they have about things he has lied about or done poorly etc. Calling this racism negatively effects race relations in society, and makes people less willing to accept real claims of racism.

[The Human Abstract]

When people blame Obama for those things, they are joking. It's a meme.

But I do agree that this kind of nitpicking when it comes to pop culture is often a waste of time and in a way does a disservice by diverting attention from real injustice.

[Free Northman Reborn]

How does race differ from ethnicity? Surely they are the same thing?

[Lord Reaver]

How does race differ from ethnicity? Surely they are the same thing?

Not since the beginning of the 20th century, no. Ethnicity is a wider concept that includes cultural and linguistic aspects as well as biological ones. Race theory deals purely with classifying humans after certain more or less arbitrary biological traits.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Not since the beginning of the 20th century, no. Ethnicity is a wider concept that includes cultural and linguistic aspects as well as biological ones. Race theory deals purely with classifying humans after certain more or less arbitrary biological traits.

OK. Interesting.

So out of interest, which is the broader term and which the narrower? In other words, can two people be of the same race but different ethnicities, or the same ethnicity but different races?

[Lord Reaver]

Generally, race is broader, since ethnicity takes into account more variables.

It cannot be stated too often, however, that the entire concept of races is not scientifically tenable and has no taxonomic significance. We are all members of Homo Sapiens, of the subspecies Sapiens.

[MyLittleFinger]

The slavery depicted in ASOIAF is not even remotely close to the disgusting practices that plagued the 16-19th century. It is the still deplorable yet in a way more fair style that the Romans employed, white, black, Gaul, whatever, if they defeated you and captured you, you were a slave. That's why we have people from the Basilisk Isles, Asshai, Naath, Westeros, other Ghiscari lands etc. all as slaves, it's a sick universal language.

As an aside...the Mhysa scene was fucking hilariously lame.

[YUNG LYANNA]

all of the depictions of brown/black people in this book are extremely problematic, & unfortunately really cliche. The Dornish women are described as sultry/wanton (Hispanic/Arabic), the Dothraki see rape as normal & even the women have internalized misogyny & the Summer Islanders mourn by having as much sex as possible - all of which amounts to nothing more than hypersexualization of black/brown bodies, Granted, the mourning bit is actually kind of progressive in its sex-positivity but nonetheless these things perpetuate stereotypes that have real world consequences.

[YUNG LYANNA]

its really upsetting to see that so many of you dont get why representation in literature & media is important. people of color lack representation in the media & in literature, that is a FACT. its appalling that so many people are satisfied by a a handful of barely-developed characters of color who happen to be perfect derogatory stereotypes & want to call that diversity.

ETA: i say this as an obsessive fan. I dont think that GRRM or the show's producers are racist, per se. but you dont have to be an outright racist to perpetuate racism & prejudice.

[StarkDragon]

Pointing out somebody's skin color isn't racist in itself, but holding it against them or becoming too proud because of the color seems racist. I don't think it was the Persians who did the Romans in anyways. They whooped up on the greeks but the romans had pretty much the whole "known world". The Romans couldn't afford their huge empire and fought too many wars and then the "barbarians" further weakened them before they split into east/west. Then the crusades was what really did in the Holy Roman Empire after the Arabs couldn't be beaten.

The racist question stems from the fact that racism is a modern phenomena that many people just can't seem to get over. If you talk about somebody's skin color these days you are automatically a racist (especially if you're white). I say not so, and even the most "barbaric" people in the novels seem to be the wildlings, and they're white.

I'm sorry, I forgot to clarify. By whooped, I don't mean they beat them. I mean they constantly assassinated them. Here, Emperor Valerian, was supposed to have either been killed by molten gold (as was Crassus, but that is a different story altogether) or in other tales, made to be the stool of the Shapur's horse.

No, undoubtedly the Emperors themselves undid themselves due to varying circumstances going back all the way to the Republic: The clash between the citizen status of the Italian territories and the Importance of the City of Rome, the Patrons vs the Populares, the Constant Wars of the Emperors, and the question of the true elector of the Roman 'crown': Senate, Emperor, or Praetorian Guard/Military?

Not to mention that empires have typically risen and fallen due to the monopolization of powers...

Back to racism: I'm not sure, the fact that they're mentioning Danny's skin color and those that she saves as a big ta-do, rather than delving into possible historical/mythological inspiration, seems to me that their point of reference for their argument is merely shallow and surface-based; and in it's one odd way racist. That's just my interpretation, however.

[Kienn]

its really upsetting to see that so many of you dont get why representation in literature & media is important. people of color lack representation in the media & in literature, that is a FACT. its appalling that so many people are satisfied by a a handful of barely-developed characters of color who happen to be perfect derogatory stereotypes & want to call that diversity.

ETA: i say this as an obsessive fan. I dont think that GRRM or the show's producers are racist, per se. but you dont have to be an outright racist to perpetuate racism & prejudice.

This is a perfect example of a catch-22.

Either you have no representation, or the representation you show is twisted into only being a "derogatory stereotype". Often, as here, people somehow make both of these complaints at the same time.

What doesn't qualify as a "derogatory stereotype"? Should the colored characters be the beacons of perfect society? Doesn't really fit into GRRM's (or any believable) world - sorry.

[YUNG LYANNA]

This is a perfect example of a catch-22.

Either you have no representation, or the representation you show is twisted into only being a "derogatory stereotype". Often, as here, people somehow make both of these complaints at the same time.

What doesn't qualify as a "derogatory stereotype"? Should the colored characters be the beacons of perfect society? Doesn't really fit into GRRM's (or any believable) world - sorry.

how about you explain to me why i should be satisfied with either of those options for representation (or lack thereof)? both critiques of representation are completely valid. either people of color fit in the neat pigeon hole white supremacist society has put them in OR they are not to be seen at all. what if, instead of defending weak & offensive character portrayals, you open your eyes to the blatant imbalance here. maybe take a look at this & see how little representation we actually get: http://annenberg.usc.edu/sitecore/shell/Applications/~/media/PDFs/RaceEthnicity.ashx

no one is asking for poc to be portrayed as "the perfect beacons" of society, but some that don't adhere to same tired & offensive stereotypes would be nice.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Yawn.

[Kienn]

how about you explain to me why i should be satisfied with either of those options for representation (or lack thereof)? both critiques of representation are completely valid. either people of color fit in the neat pigeon hole white supremacist society has put them in OR they are not to be seen at all. what if, instead of defending weak & offensive character portrayals, you open your eyes to the blatant imbalance here. maybe take a look at this & see how little representation we actually get: http://annenberg.usc.edu/sitecore/shell/Applications/~/media/PDFs/RaceEthnicity.ashx

no one is asking for poc to be portrayed as "the perfect beacons" of society, but some that don't adhere to same tired & offensive stereotypes would be nice.

Firstly, I asked what would qualify as an acceptable portrayal? As far as I can tell there's simply always someone who will be offended by any portrayal. It's impossible to satisfy everyone. For example if GRRM did portray them as the perfect society in his work he would be rightly criticized that they are the only non-believable society within his work.

Secondly, as your own link suggests - the statistics of portrayal in art (games, tv, film, literature) can be mitigated by minorities actually producing a larger portion of said art, so get out there and make something.

Crying foul every time a white guy makes anything regardless of what he does (no representation, token representation, "real" representation, or "false-ideal" representation) only serves to anger them and if anything start to resent the person making those pathetic complaints.

[StarkDragon]

how about you explain to me why i should be satisfied with either of those options for representation (or lack thereof)? both critiques of representation are completely valid. either people of color fit in the neat pigeon hole white supremacist society has put them in OR they are not to be seen at all. what if, instead of defending weak & offensive character portrayals, you open your eyes to the blatant imbalance here. maybe take a look at this & see how little representation we actually get: http://annenberg.usc.edu/sitecore/shell/Applications/~/media/PDFs/RaceEthnicity.ashx

no one is asking for poc to be portrayed as "the perfect beacons" of society, but some that don't adhere to same tired & offensive stereotypes would be nice.

One problem. You didn't use history as your example. Nor mythology. Seriously, if your understanding of the books doesn't peer into the real realm, you're missing out on a few great determinations.

You seem to be giving a modern perspective on an ancient family. Like, Before Christ the Seven, Ancient.

Also, people have noted that the slaves she saves are not of one color... or nationality... Nor were the Barbarians that Rome kept subjugating.

[SeanF]

all of the depictions of brown/black people in this book are extremely problematic, & unfortunately really cliche. The Dornish women are described as sultry/wanton (Hispanic/Arabic), the Dothraki see rape as normal & even the women have internalized misogyny & the Summer Islanders mourn by having as much sex as possible - all of which amounts to nothing more than hypersexualization of black/brown bodies, Granted, the mourning bit is actually kind of progressive in its sex-positivity but nonetheless these things perpetuate stereotypes that have real world consequences.

Am I supposed to be offended (as a White European) because the ethnic groups that most closely resemble White Europeans are shown raping, murdering, pillaging, torturing, poisoning each other?

[StarkDragon]

The barbarians around Rome were considered incredibly openly sexual compared to the Roman and Greek institutions of marriage that instituted sexual nature as a design of civilization.

The Dothraki would be compared to the Huns.

The Dornish would be compared to the natural people of Wessex.

The Summer Islands could themselves be compared to Roman ideas of the British isles.

Although I will grant you there is an over-sexualization, but that's inherent to the whole of the books. You see it especially in his last book, A Dance of Dragons.

GRRM just likes sex. Alot.

[SeanF]

Does Slaver's Bay have any character like Asha? Do the Dothraki have a Rodrik Harlaw? At the Kingsmoot we see many members of the Ironborn who would like for the fighting and rape to end. There is no Dothraki championing settling down and become ranchers. There are no Slavers thinking of becoming craftsmen.

I agree with you about the Ironborn being themselves cartoony, but they are a much higher quality cartoon imo.

None of this is to say I don't enjoy the chapters set in Essos btw. Though on your first read through their sheer volume is a little striking, the more you read the more you appreciate GRRM's world building there.

We see Essos through the eyes of outsiders, rather than its inhabitants. Thus, it comes over as alien and weird. And, it's aristocrats are fabulously rich, and outrageously decadent.

However, the Shavepate, Green Grace, Missandei, Illyrio, Varys, Grey Worm, are all well-drawn Essosi characters.

[Winter's Knight]

Uhh Morocco, like Egypt or Iran has plenty of people who'd pass for white. The idea that D&D could only find darker skinned extras is laughable.

[StarkDragon]

Uhh Morocco, like Egypt or Iran has plenty of people who'd pass for white. The idea that D&D could only find darker skinned extras is laughable.

Yes, this I concur, is the real issue at hand. The book and the show portray two very different shades.

Oh look, a pun.