The Essosi peoples' skin color and racism

[Liaraeyne]

Okay, interesting. Didn't know dark-skinned people could have blonde hair... still, the article itself says that dark skin + blonde hair is extremely rare, I still think there is a correlation between sun & and light hair. I think that the Melanesians are an interesting exception.

[Winter's Knight]

Okay, interesting. Didn't know dark-skinned people could have blonde hair... still, the article itself says that dark skin + blonde hair is extremely rare, I still think there is a correlation between sun & and light hair. I think that the Melanesians are an interesting exception.

Australian aborigines also show blonde hair, independent of European ancestory-80-90% in some areas.

It is also prelavent in Asia and Africa due to European ancestory-which harks back to my earlier point: Wewsteros, especially the North, cannot be so racially pure if it survives monster winters on a regular basis. There needs to be both regular trade with warmer climates and more immigration to replace people lost during sad winters.

[Thanos Targaryen]

Any problem here isn't being generated by GRRM. It's being generated by people with an agenda who demand that all aspects of fiction, especially the visual ones of television and movies, reflect their own modern political & social ideas on race/gender/sexual orientation/etc.. It's not a fault with creators like GRRM. It's not even a fault of producers like D&D. It's just a brattish stage among too many people who insist that everything has to take account of and respect their perspective, even in cases like ASOIAF where it's entirely ridiculous.

Political correctness waxes and wanes. At the moment in our society it's at a high watermark of intensity. Those of us who want to respect the fiction for what it is are best off just not listening to some of these precocious little snowflakes who turn everything into some kind of a bizarre whine about inclusiveness and diversity, even in scenarios like ASOIAF where it's completely irrelevant, inappropriate to the historical basis of the subject matter (i.e. a medieval society and political system), and would actually end up harming the overall story than it would ever benefit it if GRRM were to introduce any of it. Some agendas can't successfully be reasoned with so it's best to enjoy the things that we like and push the mute button on those who are never going to be happy unless they completely 100% get their way on practically everything. In terms of tedium it's much like how I imagine Leonard on The Big Bang Theory feels most of the time when having to deal with Sheldon's incessant griping and complaining.

[Liaraeyne]

which harks back to my earlier point: Wewsteros, especially the North, cannot be so racially pure if it survives monster winters on a regular basis. There needs to be both regular trade with warmer climates and more immigration to replace people lost during sad winters.

Yes that is very true :)

[Winter's Knight]

Yes that is very true :)

:D

Sometimes, I want to rewrite the North as a cultural capital, with water dancers and singers and merchants bringing in exotic beasts for "My lord Stark's amusement", with a summer palace in White Harbour and magicians from Asshai working with maestars to figure out what is wrong with winters up North and fanatic septons passing through , preaching each winter as a sign of the Seven's wrath at the North not converting (how is that not a thing?) and basically, just populating the North.

[Ser Lepus]

Wewsteros, especially the North, cannot be so racially pure if it survives monster winters on a regular basis. There needs to be both regular trade with warmer climates and more immigration to replace people lost during sad winters.

I dunno. Winters are deadly and many people surely dies, but seasons usually last less than two years. It wouldn't make sense for Essosi people to migrate to Westeros knowing that all those immigrants will probably starve to death in a few months, when the next winter comes.

Westerosi lord: Come to Westeros, land of opportunities! Lots of free land, due to the hundreds of thousands who starved to death last winter!

Essosi peasants: Hooray!

Westerosi Lord: Bring lots of food, because very soon another years-long winter will start and most of you will starve to death. Again.

Essosi peasants: We...will think about it a bit more.

[Game Of Thrones]

Well, if some Chinese author wrote an epic fantasy set in an alternate ancient China type setting, would it be racist if there is not a single European or African person in the story?

Of course not.

Why the burden on fantasy stories in a medieval European setting?

Because OMG RACIST.

But the one thing I don't get: Why do the Yi Ti have bright eyes, instead of black?

[Game Of Thrones]

Would all you OMG RACIST people be happy if GRRM made everyone have purple skin, green hair and golden eyes?

[Winter's Knight]

I dunno. Winters are deadly and many people surely dies, but seasons usually last less than two years. It wouldn't make sense for Essosi people to migrate to Westeros knowing that all those immigrants will probably starve to death in a few months, when the next winter comes.

Westerosi lord: Come to Westeros, land of opportunities! Lots of free land, due to the hundreds of thousands who starved to death last winter!

Essosi peasants: Hooray!

Westerosi Lord: Bring lots of food, because very soon another years-long winter will start and most of you will starve to death. Again.

Essosi peasants: We...will think about it a bit more.

I can't think of any other way they stay populated enough to have an army, and still grow enough food to feed everyone.

Also, how come there isn't more seasonal migration? Everyone moves south after the last harvest.

[Winter's Knight]

Would all you OMG RACIST people be happy if GRRM made everyone have purple skin, green hair and golden eyes?

It's almost like you didn't read the thread at all.

[Trickrs]

I can't think of any other way they stay populated enough to have an army, and still grow enough food to feed everyone.

Also, how come there isn't more seasonal migration? Everyone moves south after the last harvest.

We don't know how harsh the winter is south of the neck.

[Winter's Knight]

We don't know how harsh the winter is south of the neck.

It couldn't be worse than it is up North and they'd have more food down there though. And more access to help.

[Narvi]

Keep political correctness out of my fantasy novels. Get enough of that on the news.

[Jaime's severed hand]

@JonCon's & Ingleheim:

As a Spaniard I don't really know if I'm more annoyed when Spain is represented through sombreros and mariachis (and cactus) or through flamencas and bullfighting. (Well, I actually don't care that much either way).

For me the fantastic nature of Dorne overrides its Spanishness. It has every Mediterranean stereotype ever: Sex, lemons, hot peppers, pomegranates, the sea, the desert, the hot tempers, the propensity to poison (we're talking stereotypes here), revenge served cold, etc. etc. Add to that sexual freedom for its women, and it's hilarious. My favorite place on Westeros.

Well, I think Dorne is pretty much an exagerated Al-Andalus with a few Mediterranean topics thrown in for flavour. The show will shoot Dorne in some Al-Andalus places, for what is worth.

[SeanF]

:laugh:

Medieval Europe was never all white-to argue that a country the size of Westeros has one racial group, when even tiny little countries like Iceland still share certain genes with Native Americans, is laughable.

Furthermore, Westeros depends on trade. Over half the country regularly shuts down in a harsh winter every few years. Without a constant in-flow of people, goods and ideas from Essos, and Sothros, I don't see how the country is sustainable,

Parts of medieval Europe had an extensive overseas trade, but the vast majority of economic output came from local agriculture. I don't see any reason why Westeros should be different. No doubt the rich import luxuries, wine is exported in large quantities. and there's some illegal trafficking in slaves, but I doubt if many staple products come from abroad. Most trade in foodstuffs would be internal to Westeros.

Even in Winter, a whole variety of vegetables can be grown, both for eating, and to support livestock. Doubtless, there's a lot of internal migration to warmer parts of the country, too. I can't see why there would be extensive migration from abroad.

[Ingelheim]

For me the fantastic nature of Dorne overrides its Spanishness. It has every Mediterranean stereotype ever: Sex, lemons, hot peppers, pomegranates, the sea, the desert, the hot tempers, the propensity to poison (we're talking stereotypes here), revenge served cold, etc. etc. Add to that sexual freedom for its women, and it's hilarious. My favorite place on Westeros.

But the difference between Dornish people (sand people, etc) is a similarity to the differences between Spanish people in Middle Ages, between the Caucasic and Celtic northerners and the moorish people from the South, Al Ándalus.

Add the guerrilla aspect (guerrilla itself is a Spanish word, which means little war), which is Spanish, the parallels between the Conquest of Dorne and the Conquest of the Iberian Peninsula by the Roman Empire, etc.

Of course it has stereotypes (Dornishmen being really open minded about sex, women being equals, etc...when actually, Spain has had nearly no feminist movements, although many strong women throughout its history), but there are many stereotypes in the rest of regions as well.

I'm actually making a essay about it. There are many similarities that only we Spanish people would get, and I'm quite surprised Martin knew about them.

Overall, it's based on medieval Spain...both Christian Kingdoms and Al-Ándalus.

[Ingelheim]

@JonCon's & Ingleheim:

As a Spaniard I don't really know if I'm more annoyed when Spain is represented through sombreros and mariachis (and cactus) or through flamencas and bullfighting. (Well, I actually don't care that much either way).

Well, I think Dorne is pretty much an exagerated Al-Andalus with a few Mediterranean topics thrown in for flavour. The show will shoot Dorne in some Al-Andalus places, for what is worth.

Yep. Stereotypes are awful.

I don't like both bullfighting and flamenco, and I don't look like I was Mexican, yet Hollywood keeps telling me I should.

[Maid So Fair]

I think the whole concept of someone being essentially racist by omission is problematic - there should be intent or at the very least a level of ignorance that makes it more or less certain a portrayal is nothing more but caricature. The implication that you should have a certain number of characters of a different race is silly unless not including them would make no sense in the story. In a setting where people do not travel a lot it actually makes sense for everybody to be a bit prejudiced towards everybody else and for the most part they are.

[SeanF]

I wouldn't associate medieval Spain (either Muslim or Christian) with the kind of sexual freedom, or comparitively high status of women, that prevalls in Dorne. Those aspects seem closer to the Languedoc, prior to the Albigensian Crusade, Palestine, or parts of Renaissance Italy.

As an aside, I've always considered the Martells to be based on the Borgia family (who did have Spanish and Italian branches).

[Ingelheim]

I wouldn't associate medieval Spain (either Muslim or Christian) with the kind of sexual freedom, or comparitively high status of women, that prevalls in Dorne. Those aspects seem closer to the Languedoc, prior to the Albigensian Crusade, Palestine, or parts of Renaissance Italy.

As an aside, I've always considered the Martells to be based on the Borgia family (who did have Spanish and Italian branches).

I'd say closer to Palestine, yes, but Martin already stated that Palestine was one of the inspirations for Dorne.

I for once don't agree with your statement about the Borgias...they look Targaryen as hell to me. Foreign family that becomes one of the most powerful (if not the most) of the world, with rumors about incest, and pretty fucked up people.