Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[aDanceWithFlagons]

What if he's already led the victory over the Others, and is recognized as having the blood of Rhaegar, with most of the rest of the nobility dead? He would basically be begged to take the throne (or whatever is left of it) in such a situation, right?

Well, this is just my opinion, I do not see a king to rule them all at the end of the story. The fight for the throne has caused so much turmoil and death, why would people still want one ruler over all lands. There were good benifits to the iron throne, I do not deny that. Though folks beliefs of who should sit it caused many battles and all out war. It affected almost all of the continent.Yet, I could be wrong and Martin will have one realm at the end. With King Tyrion on the throne.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

If there is to be a cliched "worthy king ruling justly" at the end of the story, I think the most likely bet would be Tyrion.

Agree

[Melifeather]

Looking forward to it!

You've asked about why I think Mance is Jon's father and I'll do my best to summarize my thoughts, but it's probably going to be a long answer. It began with Jon and Ygritte after killing two wildlings. Jon asked Ygritte if she was related to them:

“Were they your kin?” he asked her quietly.

“The two we killed?” “No more than you are.”

“Me?” He frowned. “What do you mean?”

“You said you were the Bastard o’ Winterfell.”

“I am.”

“Who was your mother?”

“Some woman. Most of them are.” Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who.

She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. “And she never sung you the song o’ the winter rose?”

“I never knew my mother. Or any such song.”

Ygritte expected that Jon already knew that he had wildling blood in him. Now at first glance it seems as if Ygritte is saying that all Starks have Bael's blood in them, but this isn't the main point she's getting at. She expected Jon to know the story because of who he is: the Bastard o'Winterfell.

Ygritte thought Jon's mother would have told him who his father was, but Jon states that he never knew his mother, so Ygritte continues the story, saying Bael was a great raider:

“The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael’s head, but never could take him, and the taste o’ failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o’ that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means ‘deceiver’ in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak.”

“North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower,’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’”

“Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.”

Jon had never heard this tale before. “Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—”

“This was Brandon the Daughterless,” Ygritte said sharply. “Would you hear the tale, or no?”

He scowled. “Go on.”

“Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o’ Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o’ Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child’s cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast.”

“Bael had brought her back?”

“No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what’s certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is— you have Bael’s blood in you, same as me.”

I don't believe this story is exactly Jon's story, but I do believe Ygritte told it as an analogy and as a Stark family tradition. I think it's repeated history in Winterfell as a way to strengthen bloodlines from wildlings north of the Wall. Interestingly, Qhorin Halfhand also brings up the winter rose when Jon tells him Ygritte said they were related:

“My lord,” he said, “you never asked me how it went. With the girl.”

“I am no lord, Jon Snow.” Qhorin slid the stone smoothly along the steel with his two-fingered hand.

“She told me Mance would take me, if I ran with her.”

“She told you true.”

“She even claimed we were kin. She told me a story . . .”

“. . . of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell. So Stonesnake told me. It happens I know the song. Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging. He had a passion for wildling music. Aye, and for their women as well.”

“You knew him?”

“We all knew him.” His voice was sad.

They were friends as well as brothers, Jon realized, and now they are sworn foes. “Why did he desert?”

“For a wench, some say. For a crown, others would have it.” Qhorin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb. “He liked women, Mance did, and he was not a man whose knees bent easily, that’s true. But it was more than that. He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again.”

“Was he a good ranger?”

“He was the best of us,” said the Halfhand, “and the worst as well. Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon. As strong, as quick, as clever. But they have no discipline. They name themselves the free folk, and each one thinks himself as good as a king and wiser than a maester. Mance was the same. He never learned how to obey.”

“No more than me,” said Jon quietly.

When Mance visited Winterfell, he took notice of Jon and told him that he knew his face. Why would he take such care to notice the bastard of Winterfell?

The king laughed. “Your Mance! Why not? I promised you a tale before, of how I knew you. Have you puzzled it out yet?”

Jon shook his head. “Did Rattleshirt send word ahead?”

“By wing? We have no trained ravens. No, I knew your face. I’ve seen it before. Twice.”

It made no sense at first, but as Jon turned it over in his mind, dawn broke. “When you were a brother of the Watch . . .”

“Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath.”

“I remember,” said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wallwalk, yes . . .

“You swore not to tell.”

“And kept my vow. That one, at least.”

“We dumped the snow on Fat Tom. He was Father’s slowest guardsman.” Tom had chased them around the yard afterward, until all three were red as autumn apples. “But you said you saw me twice. When was the other time?”

“When King Robert came to Winterfell to make your father Hand,” the King-beyond-the-Wall said lightly.

Jon’s eyes widened in disbelief. “That can’t be so.”

“It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he’d met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode.”

“But,” Jon objected, “the Wall . . .”

“The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance.” He laughed. “I know every bawdy song that’s ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father’s meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard’s children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels.”

Bael the Bard,” said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he’d almost killed her.

“Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael’s exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?”

“No,” said Jon. “If you had been discovered . . . taken . . .”

“Your father would have had my head off.” The king gave a shrug. “Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree.”

But how could Mance be Jon's father if Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna? For clues, we have to go the the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I would copy the whole story here, but this post is already getting long, so I'll try to condense it somewhat.

During the Tourney of Harrenhall there was a great feast, and Rhaegar did some entertaining and "sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle". When Lyanna's youngest brother, Benjen teased her for crying, she dumped her wine glass on his head. We've read a few times that Ned's daughter Arya is like Lyanna in appearance and personality, and Bran saw Lyanna and Benjen through weirwood memories sword fighting, so we can assume that Lyanna was a bit of a tomboy and wasn't overtly girly or sentimental, so why did she cry? What song would Rhaegar have sung that was sad enough to make her cry? And what song is did Ygritte and Qhorin link to Jon? Rhaegar likely sang the song of the winter rose and it made Lyanna cry. Why would she cry? Obviously it hit a little close to home, and I think this is evidence that Lyanna was "plucked" by someone she obviously cared about.

The blue winter roses of Winterfell must be grown as a tradition, but why? It's symbolic of the Bael story so the Stark's are growing these roses for a reason. When Ned found Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, she was holding blue rose petals which are symbolic of Bael, not Rhaegar.

Mance Rayder loved the songs of wildlings while still a man of the Night's Watch. Qhorin said he often sang the wildling songs, loved women and didn't always follow the rules very well. There may have been a romantic encounter. I don't think it was a rape situation or Lyanna would not have made an appearance at Harrenhal. Lyanna was uncharacteristically weepy as pregnant women usually are and Rhaegar put two and two together that another rose of Winterfell had been plucked. Being that Rhaegar was also well educated and versed in prophecy, I think he kidnapped Lyanna to intercept the baby, but why? To understand Rhaegar's reasons for wanting the Bastard o'Winterfell we have to understand the meaning of the Prince(ss) that was Promised. Why are the Targaryens so interested in the Prince(ss) that was Promised? And would the champion of Ice be a threat?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Well, this is just my opinion, I do not see a king to rule them all at the end of the story. The fight for the throne has caused so much turmoil and death, why would people still want one ruler over all lands. There were good benifits to the iron throne, I do not deny that. Though folks beliefs of who should sit it caused many battles and all out war. It affected almost all of the continent.Yet, I could be wrong and Martin will have one realm at the end. With King Tyrion on the throne.

I think what GRRM is after in the end is peace. I do think the throne itself could be destroyed in getting there.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

If there is to be a cliched "worthy king ruling justly" at the end of the story, I think the most likely bet would be Tyrion.

Why would the North rally behind Tyrion? Heck, why would the South? I could see Tyrion as Hand of the King in the end, though.

[Toccs]

Why would the North rally behind Tyrion? Heck, why would the South? I could see Tyrion as Hand of the King in the end, though.

Conversely why would anybody rally behind Jon?

I don't think will be any King or Hand or small council at the end, much less an ideal one that will be good and kind and rule well. However I do give good odds that Tyrion will survive the climax of the story, whereas I can't see how Jon or Dany will, which is what I was saying.

[King Benjen II]

Nice. Without discussing the optimal conditions for lemon tree growth, there are some issues with Dany's memories of "home". It would be interesting if the "red door" was representative of something more mystical. One thing though, Dany's arc is more about the concept of home rather than a return to it.

Even with the correction it works IMO.

Dany's arc is largely about the concept of home. Where you lay your head is home. Her arc has largely been different experiences of the concept of home. This idea of her working out the Fire in Valyria works as the next step in her concept of home arc. She will face her largest challenges and greatest dangers yet to date in Valyria and if she survives the continuation of the concept of home arc, I assume, would be her actions in Westeros. The red door and lemon tree are tied to Dany's concept of home. The Valyrian experience of this concept could therefore include a red door analog that also works as a parallel to the weirwood door under the Black Gate. Mayhaps this Valyrian counterpart, how about the White Gate?, Is made of the ebony wood we see as a weirwood counterpart in...can't think of name but where Arya is getting FM training.

I think two good default starting points for studying the story are

1. History repeats itself

2. For there to be balance, everything must have a counterpart.

[JNR]

I agree with you that their presence at the ToJ isn't direct evidence that Jon is king. I think the oath is that there always must be a KG present with the King. Jaime Lannister was the one "protecting" Aerys.

This actual oath sworn is not given; the above idea stems from a passage in SoS in which the KG are meeting. It's clear one of them must be with the king on that occasion.

However, it's doubtful to me that the above -- a peacetime requirement, during an hour meeting of the KG -- would have sufficed for Aerys at a time when

1. A civil war was happening, and the Targs were losing

2. Aerys' greatest hope for victory, his son and all his son's forces, had just been defeated

3. Forces were marching on King's Landing and Aerys' future looked very bleak indeed -- so bleak, Rhaella and Viserys were sent to Dragonstone

I just can't see the likes of Dayne, Whent, and Hightower looking at that situation and thinking "Oh, relax. Aerys is fine. Jaime is with him."

But I do think it is some pretty telling foreshadowing by the Author, that they are King's Guard there protecting Jon.

If Jon was even there at all... there's no evidence of that, either, and many think he wasn't. (Seems to me Ran believes he was in Starfall.)

Actually, it's not even established Lyanna was pregnant! Just, like so many things, commonly assumed.

Ask the R+L=J folks how they know she was, and they'll point out the phrase "bed of blood" was used and go on to say that phrase can only possibly have meant "baby."

If some hulking male warrior dies in the next book in a "bed of blood," I am going to die laughing right alongside him.

[Eira Seren]

Alright – I said I’d put together some of my thoughts on Jon Snow for this thread. As usual, my days are too full for me to get this stuff as organized as I’d like... but I don’t mind sharing some of what I’ve been thinking about in a somewhat stream-of-consciousness format.

I suggested then that Winterfell itself is the metaphorical Heart Tree, if not of Westeros, then certainly of the North. I continue to like that idea - and I think it can be expanded upon, perhaps with reference to various world-tree mythologies. But perhaps it would be more useful, in some ways, to consider Winterfell as a fruit-bearing tree. Even an apple tree...

Certainly the Winterfell tree metaphor has plenty of textual support in the analogies Martin uses to describe different members of House Stark. Sansa is frequently identified as a songbird, and shares her name with a particularly well-bred apple cultivar (the Sansa). Bran’s wall and tower climbing leads Ned to say that “You’re not my son... you’re a squirrel;" he is described during his coma as half-bird, half-tree; he is Catelyn's "special boy," and the apple of her eye. And Lyanna, whose status as the only Stark daughter of her generation makes her the flower - the "blue winter rose" of this story. (Apples and roses, of course, are family members - taxonomically-speaking. Both belong to the Roseaceae family).

And then there's Jon Snow – who I submit is the Bael fruit, aka the Stone Apple - and as Maester Aemon says, a "son of Winterfell." (Somewhere along the way, “the fruit of the tree” and “the fruit of the loins” become more or less the same thing...)

BAEL

The Bael fruit - the Stone Apple, thus the fruit/son of the Stone Tree that is Winterfell.

There’s a great deal of potential symbolism and meaning wrapped up in the image of the Bael fruit. The Sanskrit name for the Bael tree is Bilva – and the tree is said to be sacred to the three-eyed Hindu god Shiva. It may be this tree that best fits the Winterfell tree metaphor:

A couple of other interesting meanings for the word “bael” ...

(2) King Bael (demon) - According to le Grand Grimoire, Bael is the head of the infernal powers. He is also the first demon listed in Wierus' Pseudomonarchia daemonum. According to Wierus, Bael is first king of Hell with estates in the east. He has three heads: a toad, a man, and a cat. He also speaks in a raucous, but well formed voice, and commands 66 legions. Bael teaches the art of invisibility, and may be the equivalent of Baal, one of the Seven princes of Hell.

(3) Bǣl (Old English)

Etymology - From Germanic *bālo, from Proto-Indo-European *bʰel-. Cognate with the Old Norse bál (whence the Icelandic bál (“a fire; a conflagration”), Danish bål (“fire, bonfire, pyre”), Norwegian bål and Swedish bål (“pyre, bonfire”)). Proto-Indo-European cognates include Sanskrit भाल (bhāla, “splendour”), Ancient Greek φαλός (phalos, “white”) and Old Armenian բալ (bal, “fog”).

bǣl n (nominative plural bǣl)

1. funeral pyre, bonfire

2. fire, flame, blaze

Keeping these meanings in mind, it’s interesting to reread the scene in which Jon first hears the tale of Bael the Bard – ACOK chapter 51, after Jon takes Ygritte captive. Given that another name for the fruit of the Bael tree is "Stone Apple," does it seem coincidental that Jon's partner in scaling the heights to hear that story is named "Stonesnake?" The story Ygritte tells there on the mountain – the parable of Bael the Bard - is a genesis tale, an explanation of origins and the background for this Song of Ice and Fire. And it may be more than that... (anyone know what happened to Stonesnake?) But I think it is very much the story of Jon Snow.

The bael fruit and the orchard apple are completely different plants – not naturally to be found on the same tree. But the horticultural practice of grafting appears frequently in English literature as a metaphor for the unnatural joining of like with unlike – by way of sexual violence and rape, or unacceptable unions across social classes or other boundaries – and “the graft” may simultaneously call to mind the joining itself (the sexual encounter), and the product or fruit of that event (the bastard).

I’ll save most of my thoughts on the “Bastard Graft” for another time... but thought it might be a useful segue here to point out how the Bael and the Sansa end up on the same tree. Because another intriguing potential metaphor on my mind takes us back to the orchard apple tree.

Setting the King Bloom

Wondering about the King of Winter... otherwise, nothing original to say about this one for now, so I’m just going to cut ‘n paste:

Nicely done.

[horizon]

True true, but those 3 got the order to stay at the Tower of Joy from Rhaegar, even with his own life in danger (of to war) and aerys missing three of the KG due that order. That means Rhaegar wanted to protect/defend the ToJ even more then his own life.

Then ask: why? For a mere hostage? What good would it be if he died and a hostage remained alive? Even after his death his hostage should stay protected. Right?

[JNR]

I think two good default starting points for studying the story are

1. History repeats itself

2. For there to be balance, everything must have a counterpart.

The first one is very strong with respect to characters, in particular. (This is why I suspect -- without any proof, obviously -- that Tyrion will eventually wangle his way into ruling Casterly Rock, using "only his wits.")

[JNR]

True true, but those 3 got the order to stay at the Tower of Joy from Rhaegar, even with his own life in danger (of to war) and aerys missing three of the KG due that order. That means Rhaegar wanted to protect/defend the ToJ even more then his own life.

Then ask: why? For a mere hostage? What good would it be if he died and a hostage remained alive?

I quite agree. Whatever was in the Tower at the point Rhaegar issued that order... which we don't know, but let's call it "Lyanna" for convenience... must've been far more important than a mere hostage.

If you want to figure out what was really going on in Rhaegar's mind, I think you could do a lot worse than focus on this exact issue.

[King Benjen II]

To a very large extent this is why I don't actually think that this one requires a thread of its own in Heresy. As you point out far too much of the evidence cited as holy writ is nothing of the sort. GRRM directly responded to the question as to why they were at the Tower by stating they were following orders and orders they didn't like, not because it was their sworn duty to be there. The point about Ser Willem Darry is also well made because at the time Aerys was still King. The whole business is in fact summed up by the statement that had they been by the King's side as they ought to have been Jaime Lannister wouldn't have killed him. Instead they were stuck here obeying orders they resented and as a result failed to protect their king. So now here they are and it is time to die, which is why Ned says "And now it ends".

Basically old son, you are preaching to the converted. I don't think there's anybody on this thread believes that Rhaegar and Lyanna were lawfully wed and that Jon is the heir to the Targaryen throne. That's why rather than get bogged down in refuting the faith we will do much better to consider on the one hand Jon's future role as a son of Winterfell - and what really lies down those stairs, and Dany's true role...

It can always be done in a seperate Special Edition thread handled by volunteers so as not to overtax your time BC. I think it is needed because someone has to finally fully flesh out the story through critical analysis...which will result in Heretical stances since they oppose the main board accepted stances.

I view your reasons against devoting time to it as reasons to devote time to it. And you yourself can devote zero time to the project if you choose not to.

Any volunteers to contribute essays to a Heresy Special Edition thread? I would be willing to volunteer in some capacity just to help make it happen, but essays I would like to leave to those who can do it better.

[Toccs]

True true, but those 3 got the order to stay at the Tower of Joy from Rhaegar, even with his own life in danger (of to war) and aerys missing three of the KG due that order. That means Rhaegar wanted to protect/defend the ToJ even more then his own life.

Then ask: why? For a mere hostage? What good would it be if he died and a hostage remained alive? Even after his death his hostage should stay protected. Right?

Yeah the Kingsguard being there is significant. Also if Viserys was indeed the King, one of them at least should have gone to him, and Ned even offered it, but they said "the Kingsguard does not flee". Going to the side of their sworn king would not under any circumstances be fleeing, the only reason they would consider going to Dragonstone to be fleeing, is if they were already at the side of their king and he would not be coming.

So yes I agree that Jon was the trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Where I differ with the wider board is that I don't think that this has any bearing on anybody at all aside from Jon himself. This is all ancient history now and things are only going to get worse for Westeros as the story concludes. The most this would make Jon is just another claimant to the throne and his claim would be even less supported than Aegon's is, and nobody in Westeros believes Aegon.

I don't think that R+L=J has implications for anybody at all besides Jon and I certainly don't think that it is the central and most important element of the story.

[King Benjen II]

Part I

There is Dany's vision in the HOTU. While BC is right, it does seem like Rhaegar is looking at Dany, he also appears to believe that there needs to be another head for the dragon.

"Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brothers hair, but he was tal er, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. Aegon, he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. What better name for a king?

Will you make a song for him? the woman asked.

He has a song, the man replied. He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire. He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Danys, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. There must be one more, he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. The dragon has three heads. He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way."

This is suggestive of the idea that one more child is required if the PTWP is to come from Rhaegar's line. As Maester Aemon says to Sam, (I'm paraphrasing), when considering the prophecy, they weren't thinking about a girl. So perhaps R thought another child, specifically a son, is required. And Elia couldn't have any more children, so possibly R decided to revive an old practice.

PART II

1. Agreed.

2. Good question. So. . . what reason would Ned have to think that the KG might have gone to Storm's end? Because it is now a Baratheon/King-related place? Surely he didn't think any Targs were there? Dragonstone I can understand.

Why would the KG continue to stand guard over Lyanna if the reason for the orders (a captive, held by the now-vanquished side) is obsolete? Just throwing some ideas out there.

For Hightower, possibly. Possibly not so much for Dayne, who I still think would follow Rhaegar and support him, even if it meant compromising a few of the KG ideals.

I do think it might be possible that R and L might be married, in a very Anglo-Saxon-y, subjunctive-y, maybe sort of way; it's a possibility that we could discover it was this way. Mainly, this is based on some very speculative conjecture as to the location of L at the time of the abduction (Harrenhal?), which is close to the Isle of Faces. Now, why would any offspring of R+L benefit from a marriage made old god style? It seems a bit at odds with the PTWP/fire narrative, as well as any COTF involvement, though I'm not throwing it all out until I have more to go on.

If taken straight forward I think Rhaegar saying there needs to be a 3rd means he needs another sibling...1.Rhaegar 2. Viserys 3. Dany...then in his mimd the prophecy can be fulfilled in one of his own children. This can work without him speaking of having his 3rd child. It simply happens to line up with the idea he was trying to have a 3rd child...which as far as I know is fan theory not definitively supported by text.

[Eira Seren]

This actual oath sworn is not given; the above idea stems from a passage in SoS in which the KG are meeting. It's clear one of them must be with the king on that occasion.

However, it's doubtful to me that the above -- a peacetime requirement, during an hour meeting of the KG -- would have sufficed for Aerys at a time when

1. A civil war was happening, and the Targs were losing

2. Aerys' greatest hope for victory, his son and all his son's forces, had just been defeated

3. Forces were marching on King's Landing and Aerys' future looked very bleak indeed -- so bleak, Rhaella and Viserys were sent to Dragonstone

I just can't see the likes of Dayne, Whent, and Hightower looking at that situation and thinking "Oh, relax. Aerys is fine. Jaime is with him."

If Jon was even there at all... there's no evidence of that, either, and many think he wasn't. (Seems to me Ran believes he was in Starfall.)

Actually, it's not even established Lyanna was pregnant! Just, like so many things, commonly assumed.

Ask the R+L=J folks how they know she was, and they'll point out the phrase "bed of blood" was used and go on to say that phrase can only possibly have meant "baby."

If some hulking male warrior dies in the next book in a "bed of blood," I am going to die laughing right alongside him.

MMD also says in AGOT, "'I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,' Mirri Maz Duur replied."

It's a safe assumption that this is a way to refer to childbirth.

Yeah, the fever doesn't mean one thing only. The fever could be a reflection of Ned's poppy dream, though it also signals that Lyanna could be dying of sickness or infection. That +blood narrows it down a bit, imo, to dying of an infected wound. Or peurperal (childbed) fever, a big danger to patients who delivered babies, had miscarriages or abortions. Nobody has declared L was pregnant, though.

Interesting to me that Aerys (or someone) sends the Queen and Viserys to safety, but Elia and Rhaegar's children aren't sent/don't go? Is this supposed to be Aerys in Dany's HOTU vision?

"Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair.

“Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.” Drogon shrieked, his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on."

It seems like he could be speaking about Rhaegar there. . . "let him be the king of ashes?" Maybe he wouldn't protect them?

[Eira Seren]

If taken straight forward I think Rhaegar saying there needs to be a 3rd means he needs another sibling...1.Rhaegar 2. Viserys 3. Dany...then in his mimd the prophecy can be fulfilled in one of his own children. This can work without him speaking of having his 3rd child. It simply happens to line up with the idea he was trying to have a 3rd child...which as far as I know is fan theory not definitively supported by text.

Thanks for this.

[King Benjen II]

I tend to agree. For me -- just a personal opinion, not something I'm putting forward as fact -- Jon being a bastard is as essential to his story/nature as Tyrion being Tywin's son.

It's possible Jon will turn out never to have been a bastard... as it's possible Tyrion will turn out to be Aerys Targaryen's son.

I just see both cases as pretty dismissive of the character arcs, five books into a seven book series.

And I was certainly intrigued by the season three Histories, in which Narrator Jon says about the Starks:

So whose is the Song of Ice and Fire?

Mance?

Rhaegar?

Darkstar?

Bran?

[King Benjen II]

Well, the difference is that we admit the ideas in Heresy are just that -- heresy. Offbeat stuff, possible but not demonstrated, and certainly not conclusive. Black Crow opens every thread iteration with words to that effect.

The R+L=J/Jon Will Be king! camp takes quite a different position.

Their ideas are righteous, smart, and evidence-driven. They are scientists! Those who question their ideas can only be creationists in denial.

My contributions to that linked thread as King Tyrion are nearly vomit inducing to read now.

[JNR]

Also if Viserys was indeed the King, one of them at least should have gone to him, and Ned even offered it, but they said "the Kingsguard does not flee".

The way I read it, Ned didn't offer it.

He asked them why they didn't sail with Viserys... which was before the Sack. And they said that that would have been fleeing, which the KG do not do.

Well, it would have been fleeing. But notice they didn't go to their unquestioned king, Aerys, either.

So whose is the Song of Ice and Fire?

Mance?

Rhaegar?

Darkstar?

Bran?

An outstanding question. If only we knew what the song even was!

(It's interesting, though, that the song is linked to Rhaegar and Aegon in the text... and Rhaegar loved sad songs.)