Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[horizon]

Where does the textual evidence place Wylla during these events? Where does the textual evidence place Jon? (it doesn't place him in ToJ)

Where does textual evidence state Lyanna was pregnant at ToJ? (she instead may have been mortally wounded, for instance) Who does the textual evidence say was pregnant? Ashara Dayne...also text is crickets on a baby at ToJ, but says Ned left Starfall with I baby (please correct me if I'm wrong)

No evidence a all, ofcourse, but if the question is who breastfeed a possible baby, well the Wylla story pops in.

Perhaps someday we will find out what Ned had to promiss to Lyanna. Then it'll be solved.

[horizon]

Another approach:

Ned wants:

1. Catelyn to shut up about Ashara Dayne

2. Robert to shut up about Wylla

both times in regards to Jon.

Both woman must mean something to Ned in that case (doesn't matter if it is positive or negative).

[King Benjen II]

Perhaps Wylla was the wet nurse and Ashara the mother. Ned may have had sexual relations with both (and the fishermans daughter) without impregnating any. That may be what he didnt want to talk about.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

On one level, it matters to Jon's character. The one question that keeps popping up in his own mind concerns his mother. Then, there's the part where he feels shut out from belonging in his dreams of the crypts of Winterfell. And another part, where the tension he feels between staying in the NW and otherwise belonging to the rest of the world:

"He had no destination in mind. He wanted only to ride. He followed the creek for a time, listening to the icy trickle of water over rock, then cut across the fields to the kingsroad. It stretched out before him, narrow and stony and pocked with weeds, a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled Jon Snow with a vast longing. Winterfell was down that road, and beyond it Riverrun and King's Landing and the Eyrie and so many other places; Casterly Rock, the Isle of Faces, the red mountains of Dorne, the hundred islands of Braavos in the sea, the smoking ruins of old Valyria. All the places that Jon would never see. The world was down that road . . . and he was here." (Jon AGOT)

Why Jon thinks that he'll be able to travel if he chooses other employment options, I don't know. I'm not going to make too much of it, but do think it interesting that on his list are the Isle of Faces, the red mountains of Dorne (possibly his birthplace), and "the smoking ruins of old Valyria."

Additionally, he views the kingsroad as "a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled [him] with a vast longing," which could mean a destiny that he is leaving behind by joining the NW. Oddly enough, the road he describes doesn't end in KL and the location of the IT, but takes him all the way past Dorne (past his potential place of birth), and back to Valyria, as if it is in fact a road that could take him back through history, his own, and the origins of the Targaryens.

Instead, Jon goes North.

Great insight, here. Braavos is definitely not south of Dorne... the history angle makes sense.

[Melifeather]

Alright – I said I’d put together some of my thoughts on Jon Snow for this thread. As usual, my days are too full for me to get this stuff as organized as I’d like... but I don’t mind sharing some of what I’ve been thinking about in a somewhat stream-of-consciousness format.

So here you go. Sorry if it comes across as disjointed - but here are a few thoughts and readings to help contextualize Jon Snow, according to Snowfyre:

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I suspect that Apples, generally, represent an inspirational link between ASOIAF and the project Martin was working on when first struck by the vision of the dying mother direwolf and her pups in the snow. The working title of that project, Martin says, was Avalon. One of the mythological Irish "synonyms" associated with Avalon is the Land of Apples.

In a previous post, several threads back, I listed a few varieties of apples that seem particularly relevant in the context of our story. Many were Stark Bros. patented cultivars (Stark Winter King, Starking Giant, Stark Jumbo, various "Starkspur" varieties), though certainly there is a wide spectrum of references to apples in Westeros beyond the Stark name itself. See the branches of House Fossoway for one obvious example - and then search the web for info on the Old Fosse Way, and Fossoway Cider.

As I’ve continued to turn apple-connections over in my mind, several varieties of the fruit have stood out to me as relevant to Martin’s story. One in particular is the "Wolf River" cultivar - both because it is widely recognized as one of (if not the) largest apple varieties in the world, and because its name seems particularly reminiscent of the Wolfswood-Riverlands union of House Stark and House Tully that is so central to these books.

The significance of the apple metaphor for House Stark was only reinforced in my mind during our recent Heresy discussion of Winterfell – when, early in the thread, we revisited Bran's recollection of Maester Luwin's comment that Winterfell had grown and expanded over the years like an enormous, sprawling tree of stone:

I suggested then that Winterfell itself is the metaphorical Heart Tree, if not of Westeros, then certainly of the North. I continue to like that idea - and I think it can be expanded upon, perhaps with reference to various world-tree mythologies. But perhaps it would be more useful, in some ways, to consider Winterfell as a fruit-bearing tree. Even an apple tree...

Certainly the Winterfell tree metaphor has plenty of textual support in the analogies Martin uses to describe different members of House Stark. Sansa is frequently identified as a songbird, and shares her name with a particularly well-bred apple cultivar (the Sansa). Bran’s wall and tower climbing leads Ned to say that “You’re not my son... you’re a squirrel;" he is described during his coma as half-bird, half-tree; he is Catelyn's "special boy," and the apple of her eye. And Lyanna, whose status as the only Stark daughter of her generation makes her the flower - the "blue winter rose" of this story. (Apples and roses, of course, are family members - taxonomically-speaking. Both belong to the Roseaceae family).

And then there's Jon Snow – who I submit is the Bael fruit, aka the Stone Apple - and as Maester Aemon says, a "son of Winterfell." (Somewhere along the way, “the fruit of the tree” and “the fruit of the loins” become more or less the same thing...)

BAEL

The Bael fruit - the Stone Apple, thus the fruit/son of the Stone Tree that is Winterfell.

There’s a great deal of potential symbolism and meaning wrapped up in the image of the Bael fruit. The Sanskrit name for the Bael tree is Bilva – and the tree is said to be sacred to the three-eyed Hindu god Shiva. It may be this tree that best fits the Winterfell tree metaphor:

A couple of other interesting meanings for the word “bael” ...

(2) King Bael (demon) - According to le Grand Grimoire, Bael is the head of the infernal powers. He is also the first demon listed in Wierus' Pseudomonarchia daemonum. According to Wierus, Bael is first king of Hell with estates in the east. He has three heads: a toad, a man, and a cat. He also speaks in a raucous, but well formed voice, and commands 66 legions. Bael teaches the art of invisibility, and may be the equivalent of Baal, one of the Seven princes of Hell.

(3) Bǣl (Old English)

Etymology - From Germanic *bālo, from Proto-Indo-European *bʰel-. Cognate with the Old Norse bál (whence the Icelandic bál (“a fire; a conflagration”), Danish bål (“fire, bonfire, pyre”), Norwegian bål and Swedish bål (“pyre, bonfire”)). Proto-Indo-European cognates include Sanskrit भाल (bhāla, “splendour”), Ancient Greek φαλός (phalos, “white”) and Old Armenian բալ (bal, “fog”).

bǣl n (nominative plural bǣl)

1. funeral pyre, bonfire

2. fire, flame, blaze

Keeping these meanings in mind, it’s interesting to reread the scene in which Jon first hears the tale of Bael the Bard – ACOK chapter 51, after Jon takes Ygritte captive. Given that another name for the fruit of the Bael tree is "Stone Apple," does it seem coincidental that Jon's partner in scaling the heights to hear that story is named "Stonesnake?" The story Ygritte tells there on the mountain – the parable of Bael the Bard - is a genesis tale, an explanation of origins and the background for this Song of Ice and Fire. And it may be more than that... (anyone know what happened to Stonesnake?) But I think it is very much the story of Jon Snow.

The bael fruit and the orchard apple are completely different plants – not naturally to be found on the same tree. But the horticultural practice of grafting appears frequently in English literature as a metaphor for the unnatural joining of like with unlike – by way of sexual violence and rape, or unacceptable unions across social classes or other boundaries – and “the graft” may simultaneously call to mind the joining itself (the sexual encounter), and the product or fruit of that event (the bastard).

I’ll save most of my thoughts on the “Bastard Graft” for another time... but thought it might be a useful segue here to point out how the Bael and the Sansa end up on the same tree. Because another intriguing potential metaphor on my mind takes us back to the orchard apple tree.

Setting the King Bloom

Wondering about the King of Winter... otherwise, nothing original to say about this one for now, so I’m just going to cut ‘n paste:

And finally... I found myself reading a bit about the Lord of the Rings, Beowulf and Grendel today, so might as well throw this into the mix:

From http://www.tolkiensociety.org/ed/study_a_s_2.html -

And from http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ghosts.shtml :

Alright. No time to tie them all together with prose. But I see connections...

I love your apple tree analogies! There are too many connections to deny inspiration. I think the "Bael fruit" also helps with my "Mance is Jon's father" theory.

It would be helpful to know why the Prince(ss) that was Promised was so important to the Targaryens. What was the Prince(ss) supposed to do? Get revenge on whoever caused the Doom, help the slaves, or restore old Valyria?

[Black Crow]

All I'm finding is GRRM confirmed Rhaegar died with a women's name on his lips. Which could be any woman. Not specifically Lyanna.

According to the R+L=J crowd GRRM confirmed in it the App or in an SSM

[Robbs Graves]

Hello lords and ladies,

I've been following Heresy since thread number one. This is my first post, so please be kind.

To consider Jon's impact (as a Stark/Targaryen) in the Song of Ice and Fire, I'll first have to give you all a bit of an insight in to what I consider to be the 'end game' of the book series.

I believe that magic, in the books, is an allegorical reference to oil in the real world. Magic damages the environment and has a human or 'blood' cost, much in the same way oil does in the real world. Magic, or use of it, is the true enemy in a Song of Ice and Fire. This will tie in to the bittersweet ending that Mr. Martin has promised us. In the end, everyone with magical connections will have to die in order to eradicate magic and give the world a chance at survival. Humanity or magic will survive, there is no way the two can live in harmony because of the blood cost of magic and I'm sure humanity will win, meaning the death of all Starks and Targaryens.

Now to consider Jon's (as a Stark/Targaryen) place in all of this. If Jon is truly who he is purported to be by the R + L = J thread, then he is surely the king of all things magic. A combination of the two most epitomically magic families in the world. This would mean that he will commit acts that cause great human losses and will lead the forces of magic combined in a war against humanity. He will not only be the king of the Others, but the king of Dragons too.

Obviously this is just conjecture as to how Jon (as a Stark/Targaryen) would fit in to my personal pet theory. Jon as a simple Stark or a bastard Stark would be a whole different story. I am not 100% convinced by R + L = J although it makes some very good points and has many hints within the text.

Thanks for reading.

[Black Crow]

:laugh: JonCon and halls full of Westerosi women would disagree with you. Obviously this must be because they haven't yet met the marvelous Jon Snow.

Har, but there are a couple of serious points here:

First as to Rhaegar; clearly, yes he had swooning factor easily comparable with some pop-stars at the present time, but Lya remember was not at all enamoured of being married off to Trouserless Bob Baratheon for the sake of duty, so when the star of stage screen and MTV smiles at her and offers an all-areas back-stage pass, what is a teenage girl to do, especially as she doesn't know that once he's fathered that "third" on her it'll be a twirl of the moustache and away to organise the next disaster.

Then as to the business of the "marvellous Jon Snow"; really? I think half the trouble here is down to Kit Harrington. Let's look at it logically. If he or anybody else was to promote him as the rightful King of Westeros he needs to get to the back of a very long and very expensive queue:

Aerys pops his clogs in King's Landing, so who's next?

1. First off the blocks is Viserys Targaryen, the King's second son. The first son (ungrateful wretch) has gotten himself killed so it seems a straightforward claim. Except he's also the Beggar King and as his sister sadly observes, no dragon.

2. Then there's the sister, again a good claim albeit she's a woman, but she does have dragons so there's no doubting she's Aerys' daughter. Trouble is she's in the land of far far away and by all accounts making a complete hash of things.

3. Fear not, up comes number three, Aegon son of Rhaegar and allegedly not dead after all. Great start, unlike 1 & 2 he's actually made it to Westeros, raised his banners and isn't demonstrably mad. In fact looks pretty good all round. OK too good to be true but we're the readers not the actors and real or not he's a better bet than Cersei Lannister.

4. Yes there is a four, because following all historical precedent if no.3 comes to an untimely end as confidently predicted there's too much at stake not for someone else to turn up proclaiming himself the true Aegon, or for that matter if Aegon could be spirited away from that massacre at King's Landing what of his sister, might she too have gotten away and be available? Never mind Perkin Warbeck, there's scope enough for a whole string of False Dimitri claimants.

5. And so we come to Kit Harrington, sorry Jon Snow, the bastard boy from up north. Who?

And after all that, after all the blood and treasure lost in supporting this claimant or that, why go through it all again?

[Melifeather]

In my opinion, if Jon is already half fire half ice, and Daenerys is all fire, it doesn't fit the black and white analogy of the two sides. The story is full of things belonging to the ice side and fire side. On the ice side we have Jon, White Walkers, wights, old gods, ice and snow, and for the fire we have Daenerys, dragons, stone men, R'hllor, fire and blood. It makes no sense for Jon to already be half fire. Yes, Lyanna is more important, and we intuitively understand that she is Jon's mother, but Ygritte and Qhorin understand Jon to be related to the wildlings because he is the Bastard o'Winterfell. In the Bael story, a Stark female is impregnated by a wildling, which means they both understand that Lyanna was impregnated by a wildling.

[Black Crow]

Sounds like Jon choosing Ice over Fire to me. Tremendous find. Thank you.

:agree:

[Black Crow]

I will have to dig it up but in past Heresy threads Black Crow made several links between Mance and House Blackwood.

Not guilty upon mine honour; what I've suggested based upon his apparent age, the curious circumstances of his being picked up by the Watch and the seeming significance of black and red in his cloak, is that he may be a Blackfyre, hurried north to safety in the aftermath of the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

No relation to Bloodraven at all.

Mind you, its interesting that the Golden Company should land in the south of Westeros just as Mance fetches up in the north of Westeros

[alienarea]

Maybe Mance and a wildling black ops team abducted Lyanna, Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne and Whent from Harrenhal and hid them at the ToJ?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I love your apple tree analogies! There are too many connections to deny inspiration. I think the "Bael fruit" also helps with my "Mance is Jon's father" theory.

It would be helpful to know why the Prince(ss) that was Promised was so important to the Targaryens. What was the Prince(ss) supposed to do? Get revenge on whoever caused the Doom, help the slaves, or restore old Valyria?

Thanks, FC! The Bael connections are intriguing to me, and I've started to think that is the key angle for understanding Jon and his role (as well as the RLJ connections). And as Ygritte says: "it depends on where you stand."

[Frey family reunion]

Thanks, FC! The Bael connections are intriguing to me, and I've started to think that is the key angle for understanding Jon and his role (as well as the RLJ connections). And as Ygritte says: "it depends on where you stand."

I've mulled over the Bael connection before, but I have to say the Stark apple connection is truly a brilliant find. Amazing where authors get their inspiration from. I can see GRRM interviewed after the series is over "Where did my inspiration come from? Well let's start with various world mythologies where I manipulated common expected archetypes, classic literature, actual historical events with a focus on the War of the Roses, and oh yes, a sticker on the back of a package of apples I had with lunch one day."

It just reinforces my thought that GRRM is playing around with mystical genetics and Jon's uniqueness isn't about his "rightful" claim to a throne but through the unique genes he's inherited from his paternal and maternal sides.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

In my opinion, if Jon is already half fire half ice, and Daenerys is all fire, it doesn't fit the black and white analogy of the two sides. The story is full of things belonging to the ice side and fire side. On the ice side we have Jon, White Walkers, wights, old gods, ice and snow, and for the fire we have Daenerys, dragons, stone men, R'hllor, fire and blood. It makes no sense for Jon to already be half fire. Yes, Lyanna is more important, and we intuitively understand that she is Jon's mother, but Ygritte and Qhorin understand Jon to be related to the wildlings because he is the Bastard o'Winterfell. In the Bael story, a Stark female is impregnated by a wildling, which means they both understand that Lyanna was impregnated by a wildling.

I think you're onto something, FC - but I don't think Mance figures in as Jon's father (biologically, anyway). Mance does reprise the role of Bael as raider, infiltrating the halls of Winterfell... and even his pseudonym (Abel) is more than just an anagram - "Bel" is another recognized spelling for "bael," so quite literally Mance is disguised as "a bael."

But at heart - as far as the Starks are concerned - the main significance of Bael's wildling status was that he was an outsider and an enemy. A "wildling" not only in terms of his coming from north of the wall - but generally, insofar as he violates the established rules of "family planning" and the cultivation of bloodlines.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I've mulled over the Bael connection before, but I have to say the Stark apple connection is truly a brilliant find. Amazing where authors get their inspiration from. I can see GRRM interviewed after the series is over "Where did my inspiration come from? Well let's start with various world mythologies where I manipulated common expected archetypes, classic literature, actual historical events with a focus on the War of the Roses, and oh yes, a sticker on the back of a package of apples I had with lunch one day."

It just reinforces my thought that GRRM is playing around with mystical genetics and Jon's uniqueness isn't about his "rightful" claim to a throne but through the unique genes he's inherited from his paternal and maternal sides.

Har! I agree re: authorial sources of inspiration. they are diverse!

I have puzzled some over the GRRM-genetics question, and I do wonder if the botanical / horticultural metaphors extend so far as to explain the sometimes unexpected family ties we find in these books. The apple metaphor itself extends well beyond the Starks - in fact, it first occurred to me while puzzling over Craster's Keep - and frankly, it looks like just the tip of the iceberg as far as Martin's plantlife metaphors go. Apples are very much like humans, in terms of genetic variation and the need for cross-pollination. But some plants (even a small minority of apples) are self-fertile... and we certainly do have our fair share of sexual "deviancy" in these books. The Lannisters, I think, look like an entirely different set of plants. The Targaryens too...

[addicted to snow]

While I do think that Jon's father AND mother are important, I don't see whether they were married or not and thus "legitimate" as being an issue, as I don't think Aegon or Dany will be alive at the end of the books, leaving Jon as the last heir, legitimate or not.

It will simply serve as a way to acceptance for those in the South that aren't involved in the heritage of the Starks or what's going on with the Wall. A rallying cry if you will. Jon will not want to accept the mantle, but IMO he will begrudgingly accept it as he'll see it as his duty. Not because he's a Targaryen, but because he's the "son" of Eddard Stark who taught him to put the Kingdom and his family and it's honor above all else.

I actually do think Jon could end up riding dragons, and he and Dany leading the remaining forces of men against the Others and their zombie horde, and I even think a child could result from that union, as who else will be left to take the realm forward at the end? But I don't see Dany living to the end, and I don't see Jon taking power because he wants to play the Game of Thrones, I see him taking it out of a sense of duty to the Realm.

Many readers believe that Jon is going to be king… but there is no way that this will ever happen… Jon will be the big bad-guy by the end of the next book.

[horizon]

Depends on how you view the Others. ;)

But it'd be friggin awesome to see Jon with an "Ice" army going into a fight with Danaerys and a "Fire" army.

Reaching a peace in the middle. As Ice cannot be without Fire and Fire cannot be with Ice for sake of the ultimate Balance.

And Valyria's doom was that it tried to remove one of the parts from existence.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Conversely why would anybody rally behind Jon?

I don't think will be any King or Hand or small council at the end, much less an ideal one that will be good and kind and rule well. However I do give good odds that Tyrion will survive the climax of the story, whereas I can't see how Jon or Dany will, which is what I was saying.

The North would certainly rally behind a Stark, we've already seen it with Robb. The South would absolutely rally behind a son of Rhaegar, as we're about to see with Aegon (whether fake or real).

[TheTowerOfJoy]

This actual oath sworn is not given; the above idea stems from a passage in SoS in which the KG are meeting. It's clear one of them must be with the king on that occasion.

However, it's doubtful to me that the above -- a peacetime requirement, during an hour meeting of the KG -- would have sufficed for Aerys at a time when

1. A civil war was happening, and the Targs were losing

2. Aerys' greatest hope for victory, his son and all his son's forces, had just been defeated

3. Forces were marching on King's Landing and Aerys' future looked very bleak indeed -- so bleak, Rhaella and Viserys were sent to Dragonstone

I just can't see the likes of Dayne, Whent, and Hightower looking at that situation and thinking "Oh, relax. Aerys is fine. Jaime is with him."

I'm not suggesting they thought he was fine, and I'm not sure they cared that he would be killed, he had obviously already gone mad.

I'm agreeing with you that they were following Rhaegar's orders, though it's also true that Aerys and supposedly Elia and her children were already dead by the time of the events of the Tower of Joy, right?

Which would make any legitimate offspring of Rhaegar the legitimate King, and require at least one King's Guard to be present, if true.

I personally don't think it matters that much as I've said. Legitimate or not, something tells me he'll be the only offspring of Aerys's line left when this is all over with.

If Jon was even there at all... there's no evidence of that, either, and many think he wasn't. (Seems to me Ran believes he was in Starfall.)

Actually, it's not even established Lyanna was pregnant! Just, like so many things, commonly assumed.

Ask the R+L=J folks how they know she was, and they'll point out the phrase "bed of blood" was used and go on to say that phrase can only possibly have meant "baby."

If some hulking male warrior dies in the next book in a "bed of blood," I am going to die laughing right alongside him.

While it's true that there's no absolute proof that she had recently had child birth, it's also at least a very good explaination of what's going on at the ToJ. Certainly a much better explanation than half of the off the wall Night's King theories in Heresy for sure.

You're absolutely correct that there's no definitive proof that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, but then there's also no proof for most of the theories on the boards in general, including Heresy.

I think Jon being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar is the most likely of possible scenarios at this stage, based on the information we have, just like I think its likely that Jon isn't dead,