Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[aDanceWithFlagons]

If taken straight forward I think Rhaegar saying there needs to be a 3rd means he needs another sibling...1.Rhaegar 2. Viserys 3. Dany...then in his mimd the prophecy can be fulfilled in one of his own children. This can work without him speaking of having his 3rd child. It simply happens to line up with the idea he was trying to have a 3rd child...which as far as I know is fan theory not definitively supported by text.

Ah so tPtwP would come from the 3 headed Dragon. This may be what changed Rhaegars mind of himself fulfillng the prophecy.

[King Benjen II]

I think the first vision Dany has of Jon occurs in the tent during MMD's ritual with Drogo, his horse, and apparently his unborn son.

Now compare this with the vision Melisandre has of Jon

Then we have two of Dany's visions in the House of the Undying the first one is easily attributable to Jon:

The next vision most attribute to the Red Wedding and Robb Stark, but I believe it is a vision of Jon and an event yet to unfold (why would Dany be shown a vision of the Red Wedding?)

Thank you. I'm on board with the 1st part and will say I've long disagreed with the other vision being the Red Wedding since it doesn't stand up to critical analysis. The common explanation being the events don't have to line up exactly with visions to fit together. I disagree.

The wolf doesn't have to be Robb, why does it have to be Jon?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

The way I read it, Ned didn't offer it.

He asked them why they didn't sail with Viserys... which was before the Sack. And they said that that would have been fleeing, which the KG do not do.

Well, it would have been fleeing. But notice they didn't go to their unquestioned king, Aerys, either.

An outstanding question. If only we knew what the song even was!

(It's interesting, though, that the song is linked to Rhaegar and Aegon in the text... and Rhaegar loved

sad songs.)

Maybe Aegon is realy Aegon and his is the song of ice and fire.

Funny, I don't recall the living Aegon being tied in with tPtwP.

[King Benjen II]

But we have the vision of him battling the Others, wearing obsidian armor...

I think that is most definitely his destiny.

Others? What does the text say he is battling?

[alienarea]

Well.

Of course Lyanna could have been pregnant at Harrenhal, but if so the child would be significantly older than Robb.

As for R+L=J:

We know that Lyanna disappeared from Harrenhal with Rhaegar, and she died in a bed of blood at the ToJ.

A bed of blood is often tied to a pregnancy, but with all the unreliable narrators it could simply be a bed of blood. Or Ned making the wrong assumptions, which he does now and then.

In my understanding we do not have proof for any of the following:

- Lyanna was pregnant

- if so, accepting bed of blood as proof, we do not know Rhaegar was the father (HotU: four rats raping a beautiful woman = 3 KG + Rhaegar?)

- even if it were confirmed that Lyanna was pregnant by Rhaegar we do not know the child lived (I would find it extremely hilarious if Rhaegar got another prophecy wrong and Lyanna died giving birth to a three-headed dragon due to his dragon seed, see TPatQ. "Promise me, Ned, don't tell anyone I gave birth to ... this." )

- if we for reasons unknown accept that Lyanna was pregnant, the father was Rhaegar, and the child lived, we still do not have any prove it was a boy.

- also, we do not have any proof that Ned and Howland Reed rode away from the ToJ with a baby, managed to breastfeed it while tearing down the ToJ and building the cairns and all the way to Starfall.

[Eira Seren]

An outstanding question. If only we knew what the song even was!

(It's interesting, though, that the song is linked to Rhaegar and Aegon in the text... and Rhaegar loved sad songs.)

Here I always thought he just liked those because they appealed so much to the ladies.

"Prince Rhaegar was returning from Dorne, and he and his escort had lingered here a fortnight. He was so young then, and I was younger. Boys, the both of us. At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp." (Griffin Reborn, ADWD)

Though with the Summerhall backdrop to his artistic development, you may be on to something.

[horizon]

Reed rode away from the ToJ with a baby, managed to breastfeed it while tearing down the ToJ and building the cairns and all the way to Starfall.

That is where Wylla comes in. She breastfeed Jon those early days I reckon. So she also knows the truth, this being the reason Ned does not like to talk about her. if wylla was found she could make a mistake...

And yes, the Song of Ice and Fire could have multiple explanations but seeing it as a Rhaegar song for Lyanna would fit. Especially with George giving a nod to Tolkien. (Beren & Luthien iirc).

[Eira Seren]

We know that Lyanna disappeared from Harrenhal with Rhaegar, and she died in a bed of blood at the ToJ.

Hmm, I think all we know for sure is that Rhaegar was involved in her disappearance and that she died in a bed of blood at the TOJ.

[Black Crow]

But we have the vision of him battling the Others, wearing obsidian armor...

I think that is most definitely his destiny.

No we do not. In his dream he is standing atop the Wall wearing armour of black ice all alone and fighting everybody. The fire arrows are coming up at him and one of those he slays is Robb.

It is not about a destiny to fight the Others but about the conflict within.

[Black Crow]

On one level, it matters to Jon's character. The one question that keeps popping up in his own mind concerns his mother. Then, there's the part where he feels shut out from belonging in his dreams of the crypts of Winterfell. And another part, where the tension he feels between staying in the NW and otherwise belonging to the rest of the world:

"He had no destination in mind. He wanted only to ride. He followed the creek for a time, listening to the icy trickle of water over rock, then cut across the fields to the kingsroad. It stretched out before him, narrow and stony and pocked with weeds, a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled Jon Snow with a vast longing. Winterfell was down that road, and beyond it Riverrun and King's Landing and the Eyrie and so many other places; Casterly Rock, the Isle of Faces, the red mountains of Dorne, the hundred islands of Braavos in the sea, the smoking ruins of old Valyria. All the places that Jon would never see. The world was down that road . . . and he was here." (Jon AGOT)

Why Jon thinks that he'll be able to travel if he chooses other employment options, I don't know. I'm not going to make too much of it, but do think it interesting that on his list are the Isle of Faces, the red mountains of Dorne (possibly his birthplace), and "the smoking ruins of old Valyria."

Additionally, he views the kingsroad as "a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled [him] with a vast longing," which could mean a destiny that he is leaving behind by joining the NW. Oddly enough, the road he describes doesn't end in KL and the location of the IT, but takes him all the way past Dorne (past his potential place of birth), and back to Valyria, as if it is in fact a road that could take him back through history, his own, and the origins of the Targaryens.

Instead, Jon goes North.

Oh, a nice one.

[Black Crow]

The biggest reason why not to me is that we are in book 5 of seven, and there has been almost no time whatsoever spent on anything similar to that in Valyria, whereas we're bombarded with everything going on North of the Wall, right down to the prologue of the entire series. There are a few hints in the text of 'demons' and the like in Valyria, and then there's the Lannister Sword story, but that's about it. If there is a trip to Valyria in the story, I suspect it will be a short one, not a significant ending to the "story of fire".

No, I'd disagree. In the story Valyria still dominates Essos in the way that the Wall does Westeros.

[Black Crow]

It can always be done in a seperate Special Edition thread handled by volunteers so as not to overtax your time BC. I think it is needed because someone has to finally fully flesh out the story through critical analysis...which will result in Heretical stances since they oppose the main board accepted stances.

I view your reasons against devoting time to it as reasons to devote time to it. And you yourself can devote zero time to the project if you choose not to.

Any volunteers to contribute essays to a Heresy Special Edition thread? I would be willing to volunteer in some capacity just to help make it happen, but essays I would like to leave to those who can do it better.

While I'm all for questioning the tower of assumptions on the R+L=J thread, that is an argument in itself and I prefer that here on Heresy we concentrate on the outcomes. Obviously there is some crossover which is why I invited JNR to state his case, but I see this thread as primarily an opportunity to discuss Jon's role in the Song of Ice and Fire rather than pick holes in the rightful king of Westeros theory.

[Black Crow]

Hmm, I think all we know for sure is that Rhaegar was involved in her disappearance and that she died in a bed of blood at the TOJ.

Indeed, and whilst the Faithful point to GRRM's confirmation that Rhaegar (again in the House of the UNdying vision) died with Lyanna's name on his lips, its important to recall that he was a monomaniac fruitcake obsessed with hatching the Prince that was Promised.

[King Benjen II]

How about:

Rhaegar held Lyanna captive in ToJ either himself or ordered KG since we have no textual evidence he was there for the duration of RR prior to recall (is there textual evidence he was at ToJ at all?), his recall cuts his plans with Lyanna short and he orders his KG to kill Lyanna. Fits the idea Rhaegar held Lyanna captive to prevent fulfillment of prophecy, fits idea repeatedly demonstrated that KG follow orders regardless of morality. Ned and Co arrive too late to rescue Lyanna from Rhaegar/KG. No baby to be found until Ned reaches Ashara in Starfall. Where he collects the result of Mance's plucking his (Ned's) rose Ashara...a baby who grew to be Jon Snow.

I am left with a question, where was Mance during RR? It may help to consider that Mance may not be his true name while also considering his connections to the Blackwoods.

[Eira Seren]

ok, last one until tomorrow. sleep required.

Oh, a nice one.

Thanks. It also occurs to me that this places Jon on a trajectory, starting with his potential Targ history in Valyria. He's following that trajectory not backward through history, but forward, into the North.

its important to recall that he was a monomaniac fruitcake obsessed with hatching the Prince that was Promised.

:laugh: JonCon and halls full of Westerosi women would disagree with you. Obviously this must be because they haven't yet met the marvelous Jon Snow.

I am left with a question, where was Mance during RR? It may help to consider that Mance may not be his true name while also considering his connections to the Blackwoods.

I think with the Watch, either growing up or already joined. TRJS thinks Mance could have gone to the Tourney, but I don't really know how that timeline fits.

And another question, why would Ned never reveal Jon's true parentage? Would they want to hide the wildling blood?

ETA: I'm not yet following the Blackwood connection.

[King Benjen II]

Ah so tPtwP would come from the 3 headed Dragon. This may be what changed Rhaegars mind of himself fulfillng the prophecy.

I agree. To me it satisfies the HotU vision. Do we have any text stating his desired number of children?

[King Benjen II]

That is where Wylla comes in. She breastfeed Jon those early days I reckon. So she also knows the truth, this being the reason Ned does not like to talk about her. if wylla was found she could make a mistake...

And yes, the Song of Ice and Fire could have multiple explanations but seeing it as a Rhaegar song for Lyanna would fit. Especially with George giving a nod to Tolkien. (Beren & Luthien iirc).

Where does the textual evidence place Wylla during these events? Where does the textual evidence place Jon? (it doesn't place him in ToJ)

Where does textual evidence state Lyanna was pregnant at ToJ? (she instead may have been mortally wounded, for instance) Who does the textual evidence say was pregnant? Ashara Dayne...also text is crickets on a baby at ToJ, but says Ned left Starfall with I baby (please correct me if I'm wrong)

[King Benjen II]

Indeed, and whilst the Faithful point to GRRM's confirmation that Rhaegar (again in the House of the UNdying vision) died with Lyanna's name on his lips, its important to recall that he was a monomaniac fruitcake obsessed with hatching the Prince that was Promised.

All I'm finding is GRRM confirmed Rhaegar died with a women's name on his lips. Which could be any woman. Not specifically Lyanna.

[King Benjen II]

On one level, it matters to Jon's character. The one question that keeps popping up in his own mind concerns his mother. Then, there's the part where he feels shut out from belonging in his dreams of the crypts of Winterfell. And another part, where the tension he feels between staying in the NW and otherwise belonging to the rest of the world:

"He had no destination in mind. He wanted only to ride. He followed the creek for a time, listening to the icy trickle of water over rock, then cut across the fields to the kingsroad. It stretched out before him, narrow and stony and pocked with weeds, a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled Jon Snow with a vast longing. Winterfell was down that road, and beyond it Riverrun and King's Landing and the Eyrie and so many other places; Casterly Rock, the Isle of Faces, the red mountains of Dorne, the hundred islands of Braavos in the sea, the smoking ruins of old Valyria. All the places that Jon would never see. The world was down that road . . . and he was here." (Jon AGOT)

Why Jon thinks that he'll be able to travel if he chooses other employment options, I don't know. I'm not going to make too much of it, but do think it interesting that on his list are the Isle of Faces, the red mountains of Dorne (possibly his birthplace), and "the smoking ruins of old Valyria."

Additionally, he views the kingsroad as "a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled [him] with a vast longing," which could mean a destiny that he is leaving behind by joining the NW. Oddly enough, the road he describes doesn't end in KL and the location of the IT, but takes him all the way past Dorne (past his potential place of birth), and back to Valyria, as if it is in fact a road that could take him back through history, his own, and the origins of the Targaryens.

Instead, Jon goes North.

Sounds like Jon choosing Ice over Fire to me. Tremendous find. Thank you.

[King Benjen II]

ok, last one until tomorrow. sleep required.

Thanks. It also occurs to me that this places Jon on a trajectory, starting with his potential Targ history in Valyria. He's following that trajectory not backward through history, but forward, into the North.

:laugh: JonCon and halls full of Westerosi women would disagree with you. Obviously this must be because they haven't yet met the marvelous Jon Snow.

I think with the Watch, either growing up or already joined. TRJS thinks Mance could have gone to the Tourney, but I don't really know how that timeline fits.

And another question, why would Ned never reveal Jon's true parentage? Would they want to hide the wildling blood?

ETA: I'm not yet following the Blackwood connection.

I will have to look more into Mance's whereabouts and the surrounding timeline. I'm currently trying to place him around either Lyanna or Ashara for him to father Jon.

Who is TRJS?

If Lyanna is Jon's mother it could be to hide her shame or to hide the wildling blood. If Ashara then maybe wildling blood or to hide the true reason she jumped...or murdered.

I will have to dig it up but in past Heresy threads Black Crow made several links between Mance and House Blackwood.