Heresy 102 of Ice and Fire

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I quite agree. Whatever was in the Tower at the point Rhaegar issued that order... which we don't know, but let's call it "Lyanna" for convenience... must've been far more important than a mere hostage.

If you want to figure out what was really going on in Rhaegar's mind, I think you could do a lot worse than focus on this exact issue.

Well we were told he was obsessed with the Prince that was Promised prophesy... So it would seem he might have thought that the PtwP may have been in the Tower of Joy.

[addicted to snow]

In a world where people can change faces & a 'mad king' element; it seems clear to me that not all of the details have been revealed regarding L's disappearance… knowing the way that GRRM writes, there is more to the story… something that will likely change everything.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Others? What does the text say he is battling?

Technically wights, but I believe they are driven by the Others, and why would he be wearing "black ice", ie Obsidian armor to battle only wights...

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

[Melifeather]

I think the "Rhaegar is Jon's father" is a very tantalizing feint, but again, I cannot see the logic of making him ice and fire when he and Daenerys should be opposites and champions of each respective side. I like Mance Rayder as the Darth Vader to Jon's Luke Skywalker, but Jon's father could be just about any northerner or wildling. One thing I feel is quite likely is that Jon will meet his father.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

No we do not. In his dream he is standing atop the Wall wearing armour of black ice all alone and fighting everybody. The fire arrows are coming up at him and one of those he slays is Robb.

It is not about a destiny to fight the Others but about the conflict within.

But what purpose is "armor of black ice" (clearly meaning obsidian armor) if not to fight the Others?

And you're seriously implying that he recognized Ygritte, but didn't recognize his own "half-brother" Robb?

[Frey family reunion]

While I see that Jon and Dany will be opposing forces at some point during the story, I don't think that this means that Jon is necessarily in the Ice camp either. I don't see why Jon can't find himself in opposition to both sides.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

No, I'd disagree. In the story Valyria still dominates Essos in the way that the Wall does Westeros.

Yet, we've actually had POV's seeing the threat from the Others, and lots of people talking about them, and have evidence of a battle involving the wights and potentially the Others. There is no imminent threat from Valyria that's been mentioned or even hinted at, yet we're 5/7 of the way through the series. It just seems kind of "dues ex machina" to suddenly have a threat or even plotline emerge from Valyria that needs a resolution this late in the books.

[Frey family reunion]

Yet, we've actually had POV's seeing the threat from the Others, and lots of people talking about them, and have evidence of a battle involving the wights and potentially the Others. There is no imminent threat from Valyria that's been mentioned or even hinted at, yet we're 5/7 of the way through the series. It just seems kind of "dues ex machina" to suddenly have a threat or even plotline emerge from Valyria that needs a resolution this late in the books.

I do think that Volantis is probably the next stop on Dany's "goodwill" tour of Essos. My own belief is that Illyrio was trying to set up a slave revolt in Volantis when he arranged for the Golden Company and Dany to meet up outside the Walls of Volantis, which Aegon ruined when he decided to set sail to Westeros without Dany.

As for Valyria, I see that more as a cautionary tale, either for the hubris of the Valyrians, or for whatever Braavos may have in mind for Westeros.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Many readers believe that Jon is going to be king… but there is no way that this will ever happen… Jon will be the big bad-guy by the end of the next book.

Completely disagree. I could maybe see him as an anti-hero, but not as the "big bad-guy".

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I do think that Volantis is probably the next stop on Dany's "goodwill" tour of Essos. My own belief is that Illyrio was trying to set up a slave revolt in Volantis when he arranged for the Golden Company and Dany to meet up outside the Walls of Volantis, which Aegon ruined when he decided to set sail to Westeros without Dany.

As for Valyria, I see that more as a cautionary tale, either for the hubris of the Valyrians, or for whatever Braavos may have in mind for Westeros.

Agreed, and then on from Volantis to Westeros. I could maybe see her fly over Valyria or something at some point, but I don't think there's some huge unmentioned plot element there.

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

Forgive this blasphemy but what if, in the fashion of the Targs, Jon is a child of inbreeding. Brandon and Lyanna perhaps or even Lyanna and Ned. He is said to appear purely Stark, certainly more so than his siblings, except maybe Arya. I, for some reason want to resist R+L=J and so I may be reaching.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Forgive this blasphemy but what if, in the fashion of the Targs, Jon is a child of inbreeding. Brandon and Lyanna perhaps or even Lyanna and Ned. He is said to appear purely Stark, certainly more so than his siblings, except maybe Arya. I, for some reason want to resist R+L=J and so I may be reaching.

You would not be the first to entertain the idea - and certainly there is precedent for incest in Martin's tale...

[JNR]

Of course Lyanna could have been pregnant at Harrenhal, but if so the child would be significantly older than Robb.

Actually, Harrenhal was a year before Lyanna's disappearance.

Then Robert's Rebellion occupied roughly the next year.

We also know Jon was born roughly the time of the Sack.

This means that Lyanna's pregnancy (assuming there was one) could not possibly have been as early as Harrenhal (unless she had a baby that was hushed up somehow).

It also means she conceived Jon (assuming she did) several months after she disappeared. Not before.

Her place of disappearance is never stated anywhere in the series. The popular idea that it was Harrenhal, or thereabouts, is unfounded; it typically emerges from the belief that she must've been near Riverrun to attend her brother Brandon's planned wedding, or alternately, that she was at Harrenhal because Catelyn's mother was Minisa Whent (and the Whents' seat was once Harrenhal).

[JNR]

Here I always thought he just liked those because they appealed so much to the ladies.

If appealing to ladies was Rhaegar's primary concern, it's interesting that he is linked to no women in his life -- compare to Trouserless Bob Baratheon -- except for Elia (a forced marriage) and Lyanna (a situation that needs explaining).

We might even call him Trouserful Rhaegar. He was always caught with his pants up.

[JNR]

I'm agreeing with you that they were following Rhaegar's orders, though it's also true that Aerys and supposedly Elia and her children were already dead by the time of the events of the Tower of Joy, right?

Which would make any legitimate offspring of Rhaegar the legitimate King, and require at least one King's Guard to be present, if true.

If Jon were Rhaegar's son, then yes, at the time Ned showed up, he would be the legitimate king.

However, that still wouldn't necessarily require attendance by the KG.

Notice that (as I demonstrated in the long post), the same three Kingsguard evidently chose not to attend the previous legitimate king, Aerys.

They did this even though they knew him to be in peril of his life because Rhaegar had lost at the Trident and Robert's forces were marching south.

While it's true that there's no absolute proof that she had recently had child birth, it's also at least a very good explaination of what's going on at the ToJ. Certainly a much better explanation than half of the off the wall Night's King theories in Heresy for sure.

Agreed. And as it happens... I do think she was pregnant, with Jon, and that Jon was at the Tower of Joy when Ned showed up.

But the point is this: despite fan perception on this board, the premise that Jon is the legit son of Rhaegar is very far from being proven. The case for it is actually rather weak.

If you want to say the theory of Jon Targaryen, First of His Name, is on the same footing as some Heretical interpretations of the Night's King -- which I also consider weak -- then I would have to agree!

[Frey family reunion]

If appealing to ladies was Rhaegar's primary concern, it's interesting that he is linked to no women in his life -- compare to Trouserless Bob Baratheon -- except for Elia (a forced marriage) and Lyanna (a situation that needs explaining).

We might even call him Trouserful Rhaegar. He was always caught with his pants up.

Unless a certain purple eyed kingsguard was around (perhaps).

[Melifeather]

Actually, Harrenhal was a year before Lyanna's disappearance.

Then Robert's Rebellion occupied roughly the next year.

We also know Jon was born roughly the time of the Sack.

This means that Lyanna's pregnancy (assuming there was one) could not possibly have been as early as Harrenhal (unless she had a baby that was hushed up somehow).

It also means she conceived Jon (assuming she did) several months after she disappeared. Not before.

Her place of disappearance is never stated anywhere in the series. The popular idea that it was Harrenhal, or thereabouts, is unfounded; it typically emerges from the belief that she must've been near Riverrun to attend her brother Brandon's planned wedding, or alternately, that she was at Harrenhal because Catelyn's mother was Minisa Whent (and the Whents' seat was once Harrenhal).

I think you are stretching as to those dates. If there is something that states when the tourney of Harrenhal was and then the date of the Tower of Joy, please point me in that direction. Ned married Catelyn quite quickly, but we're not sure if it was before or after Rickard went after his son Brandon. Either Rickard arranged the marriage with Ned, or Ned went ahead on his own to seal the alliance. In any case, he only had one night with Catelyn to sire Robb before heading off to Robert's Rebellion. If we use Ned and Catelyn's marriage for the timeline, that would put Lyanna's abduction maybe a month or so earlier, but really nothing to suggest the timing of the tourney.

[Frey family reunion]

I'm really cringing that this thread is turning into another R + L = J, isn't that what the General thread is for? Along with, Jon is AA, Dawn is lightbringer, Ashara Dayne is insert mystery female here, and let me tell you how much I love character x. And oh yes, don't let me forget one of the thousand is Illyrio or Varys a Blackfyre? threads.

I think at least every Heresy topic should assume that Jon is not going to be put on the Iron Throne at the end of the series. ETA no matter who his parents really are.

[JNR]

Forgive this blasphemy but what if, in the fashion of the Targs, Jon is a child of inbreeding. Brandon and Lyanna perhaps or even Lyanna and Ned. He is said to appear purely Stark, certainly more so than his siblings, except maybe Arya. I, for some reason want to resist R+L=J and so I may be reaching.

Brandon and Ned are problematic because Lyanna conceived several months into Robert's Rebellion, well after she had disappeared.

Brandon was dead by then; Ned almost certainly never saw her after her disappearance until she was found at the ToJ.

[JNR]

I think you are stretching as to those dates. If there is something that states when the tourney of Harrenhal was and then the date of the Tower of Joy, please point me in that direction.

We know, for sure, that she disappeared first; weeks later Rickard and Brandon died; after that Aerys called for Ned and Robert, and Jon Arryn called his banners; and thus Robert's Rebellion began.

We also know Robert's Rebellion took about a year, and Jon was born around the time of the Sack.

So it's beyond any doubt that Lyanna would have to have conceived Jon months after she disappeared. It couldn't have been as early as Harrenhal, for sure.